The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Diffusion is making me crazy..... Diffusion Products
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Diffusion is making me crazy.....

This is all by ear, so absent REW measurements mind you, so please pretty please bear with me.....

I have a small mixing/vocal recording room...131 inch by 134 inch


I studied, re-studied, and over-studied treatment. Went over graphs...did so much. (pain-staking, but a labor of love).

The real traps fellow and many others recommend absorption only for small rooms....

any rear wall within ten feet of the listener = absorption, they all say. (ive read THOUSANDS of posts)

I had great acoustic treatment done...all 4 corners are built in bass traps with rock wool...4" thick panels hung 4" off the walls......4inch thick traps ABOVE reflection points at the wall/ceiling joints..

clouds..

But my rear half of the room had some funky sh*t going on with lows...and I always had mud in the vocals at 250 (ish) hz.

I mixed my highs too hot, as well.

My room was un-naturally DEAD, was the problem. TOO much absorption.

So..
..


I recalculated, re studied.....studied expertise here, as a reader...

and re-arranged all of my treatments to be even better ....

and my REAR WALL(center), and SECOND reflection points on my side walls are left to do.

PROBLEM: Room sounds great with them walls bare, and the rear bass issue is GONE.

This tells me.....Diffusion. Diffusion would be my last step....just on the high end... so-as to not have flat-wall reflections smacking right back at me......and at the same time, leaving the room "alive"


Sooooo0o0o



UGHHHhhhh...reading this site and many others, there's raging debate as to whether or not diffusion is effective in small rooms.



Theres testimony from COUNTLESS people saying its worked wonders....and COUNTLESS people saying its too small of a space.


The fakk?

Bros.....diffusion is too expensive and/or too labor intensive to be guessing at?

Anyhoo...


Quadratics? Or..the cylendrical ones....? No clue..

more absorption is not an option..I like my room WAY better now, but flat walls at rear 1st reflection point is NOT ideal mixing..


For folks who say its too close for qrd...the cylendar ones could go like....

vertical on rear wall...passing reflections left to right...

horizontal on side 2nd refl points....passing them reflections up and down? Seems a "decent" path..



ANY expertise is appreciated. I love you guys for all of the info sharing.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Jens Eklund's Avatar
Check the links in this post:
1D diffusor - vertical or horizontal?

Or if room really is too small, here's an alternative approach: Monitors placement/room acoustic


EDIT:

Sorry, just saw your room dimensions ... diffusion is not an option.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Here for the gear
 

Hi jens! Thanks so much for the response.

I've seen the debate on small room diffusion....

Most of you fellows that really know your stuff say that the room is too small, but then Ive also seen guys like gik say that it could be beneficial.(q7d)...so this is confusing


My room dies if I add any more absorption (in a muffly/unnatural bad way)

My room sounds good NOW, but my rear 1st reflection is flat wall....



Given a choice between keeping it flat, and diffusion.....youd choose flat?


Thank ya!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Here for the gear
 

My listening position is 6 feet from the rear wall, almost exactly. My speakers' nearfield equalateral triangle is 35 inches per side.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Gear Nut
 

Patches of absorption on a bare wall also provides diffusion.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Im just afraid to add anything else whose primary function is to absorb. The "too dead" sound has been bothersome, to me. (preference)

The NO DIFFUSION in small rooms guys are absolutely adamant, but equally as adamant are folks who say that its helped them immensely.

Sometimes, the confusion was more-so in assuming the person was looking for a more broad-band diffusion...Im not worried about my low end at this point because ive learned the room and its in a comfortable place....I just want to scattershot my mid highs to highs...IF itll be effective, versus the rear 1st reflection being a flat wall.

Its a tough choice, so hopefully folks with diffusion experience in small rooms will chime in as to type & effectiveness. I already know the "against" argument, for sure.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Another tidbit is the Acoustic Fields guy thats all over Youtube?

He has one video where he says the distance from your listening seat merely means the shallower the wells, but he had some formula that worked for 6 feet.

Isnt he an expert?

Also ~ he was in some interview about diffusion, and in the interview theyre sitting in front of a mixing board and the rear wall is completely covered with qrd diffusers....but the rear wall looks only about 3 or 4 feet behind them!!

This is why its a hard choice .... theres mixed messages being randied about, and its too expensive and/or time consuming (if you DIY) to be this unsure.

Kind of a sucky position to be in....oh well though, I can rock with it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Sorry, just saw your room dimensions ... diffusion is not an option.
And I would say diffusion having same possibilities to get a nice room as the absorbing. Have earlier posted measurements from my room (3x4m) to back up the statement.

OP, feel free to ask questions if you want to know more, but you can also find info, measurements and links reading my and others posts regarding the subject.

Either way, good luck with your building.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomlin View Post
And I would say diffusion having same possibilities to get a nice room as the absorbing. Have earlier posted measurements from my room (3x4m) to back up the statement.

OP, feel free to ask questions if you want to know more, but you can also find info, measurements and links reading my and others posts regarding the subject.

Either way, good luck with your building.
Ahh, finally a guy who's done small room diffusion : )

Sure, two questions...

If I went 1d, do you think my plan (vertical on rear wall, horizontal on back sides) is a good approach to "re-route" the reflections away from the sweet spot?

#2 . if not, which diffuser type would you recommend for rear wall, if the goal is to maintain life in the room and scatter the highs? (rear wall = 6ft. from sweet spot)


Thanks so much!!!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 

You would be doing well indeed to consider this product in pairs...

Evolution PolyFusor (C) - Sound Diffuser / Absorber Combination

Bonus points for using the J-mount.

I think it would help by adding some diffusion in the lower mids without making the room sound more dead.

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.t. View Post
Ahh, finally a guy who's done small room diffusion : )

Sure, two questions...

If I went 1d, do you think my plan (vertical on rear wall, horizontal on back sides) is a good approach to "re-route" the reflections away from the sweet spot?

#2 . if not, which diffuser type would you recommend for rear wall, if the goal is to maintain life in the room and scatter the highs? (rear wall = 6ft. from sweet spot)


Thanks so much!!!
Hi,
I’m not an expert so when it comes to measuring and counting I leave that to people I trust.

1. Small rooms building up huge bass frequencies, so whatever One would choose after, A good advice is getting rid of the highest basspeaks first. From what I’ve read, one can do that with really thick absorbing material, but then you won’t have any space left in the room, I’m sure others have other good advices as well, but most spacesaving should be Helmholtz, that’s what I did last time with great success.
(I’ve rebuilt my room a couple of times and what I learned is that a fast lane don’t exist)

2. 1d should be ok, but you need the diffusor to work broadband, otherwise you might solve the scattering but not anything else. There are some manufactures making diffusionpanels down to 200-300Hz, but it can get quite expensive. There are also kits that you can put together yourself to a lower price. (You can see mine attached, that I put together and painted myself. They stand on a HH with same deep as the diffusors = space saving)

Are you on a budget? Do you have some craftsmen skills yourself? Some measuringskills and equipment for measuring acoustics (frequency’s, reverbation etc), otherwise I would say a good contact is necessary if don’t want to do like me... rebuild a couple of times.
Attached Thumbnails
Diffusion is making me crazy.....-4240ce73-1ad0-41dc-8c64-80da9adc432d.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
Here for the gear
 

Thomlin, I highly value that info. Thanks so much!!!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light View Post
You would be doing well indeed to consider this product in pairs...

Evolution PolyFusor (C) - Sound Diffuser / Absorber Combination

Bonus points for using the J-mount.

I think it would help by adding some diffusion in the lower mids without making the room sound more dead.

YYMV

Light

Temple
This is what Im leaning toward, at the moment. Also, thank you! Ill be making my purchase toward the end of November...hoping to find these in 2x2 panels.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
Gear Nut
 

For the people seeking knowledge on this topic: this is what Toole said to me about RPG-ish diffusers:

Hi Bert

I too think that the "Schroeder" diffuser is not an universal solution, with uniquely advantageous properties. The "time smear" argument might have merit in specific applications but it has yet to be demonstrated in any scientific way. I think the needs of large venue "live" performances are quite different from small room multichannel reproduction. The fact that curved surfaces deliver relatively strong single reflections over wide angular ranges can, in fact, be highly advantageous in some situations.

Anyway it is an interesting topic. BTW I see that you are ambiguous about the spelling of diffuser. When you spell it with an "o" as in diffusor, you are really advertising RPG. In their book Cox and D'Antonio actually use "er", pointing out that the "or" spelling was an affectation used for commercial differentiation.

cheers,

Floyd
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
For the people seeking knowledge on this topic: this is what Toole said to me about RPG-ish diffusers:

Hi Bert

I too think that the "Schroeder" diffuser is not an universal solution, with uniquely advantageous properties. The "time smear" argument might have merit in specific applications but it has yet to be demonstrated in any scientific way. I think the needs of large venue "live" performances are quite different from small room multichannel reproduction. The fact that curved surfaces deliver relatively strong single reflections over wide angular ranges can, in fact, be highly advantageous in some situations.

Anyway it is an interesting topic. BTW I see that you are ambiguous about the spelling of diffuser. When you spell it with an "o" as in diffusor, you are really advertising RPG. In their book Cox and D'Antonio actually use "er", pointing out that the "or" spelling was an affectation used for commercial differentiation.

cheers,

Floyd
I think with an er or an or, depending on what mood Im in, lol

Is that RPG fellow saying the curved surfaces are advantageous in small rooms? That seemed like..hmm, open ended.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Lives for gear
 
avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.t. View Post
Is that RPG fellow saying the curved surfaces are advantageous in small rooms? That seemed like..hmm, open ended.
The Bert quoted is Floyd Toole. One of the top acousticians of our time. He does not and has never had any business relationship with RPG.

Andre
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump