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New Bedroom Studio (bigger now!) Utility Software
Old 13th August 2018
  #1
Gear Nut
 
Tholennon's Avatar
New Bedroom Studio (bigger now!)

Hello friends!

I'm here looking for some help with my new "bedroom studio".

I moved to a new house and now I got a bigger room to sleep and produce!


The room its a 19'8 x 11'5 ft rectangle and here is an sketch I made to solve some doubts I'm having on how to configure the "studio":



Well... as you see, the green and blue squares its my rock wool panels, and my bigger concern is about speakers and panels placement.

What could be better:
-place the speakers attached against the wall or keep them away as I designed?
-how about the panels placement I designed?

Do you guys could suggest another configurations that could be better on this room?

Obs.: I'm not looking to get a "professional studio", this is a bedroom, so I just want to improve acoustics to get better recordings and mixes....


THANKS!
Old 15th August 2018
  #2
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Ditch the green traps on the bathroom wall and put them above your desk. Measure the room with rew and go from there.
Old 17th August 2018
  #3
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Tholennon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Ditch the green traps on the bathroom wall and put them above your desk. Measure the room with rew and go from there.
I dont'g get it
Old 17th August 2018
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tholennon View Post
I dont'g get it
Front wall treatment isnt very bennificial. Those traps would serve you better as clouds hanging above your desk.
Old 17th August 2018
  #5
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Tholennon's Avatar
How far from the walls I should place the monitors?
Old 17th August 2018
  #6
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Thats what REW is for. It will help you test for optimal position. Typically up against the front wall is a good spot for various reasons, but with that door, and i assume its hollow, you might not get the typical boost in the low end from proximity to a boundary
Old 17th August 2018
  #7
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Definitely way too many absorber panels if your walls aren't double-layered sheetrock with mass loaded vinyl or some other mass loading technique between layers. In normal residential construction, the walls already serve as Heilmholtz absorbers in the lower-mids, upper-bass registers. It's very easy to overkill on the absorbtion, especially with a big fluffy mattress (which is in the ideal place actually).

I would definitely take the green absorbers off the bathroom wall and place them on the ceiling in the early/direct reflection zone. Also remove all the other panels except the corner traps, and only place panels if you can't set up the listening position to exclued direct/early reflections; obviously that's where the panels would go if you can't. More panels actually exacerbates standing waves unless you're going full anechoic. Usually what happens is that everything except the standing waves get absorbed, making them anything but ambiguous. You don't want that. The rear wall should have a panel most likely, if the bed isn't doing the trick.

In a room that size and shape, monitor SELECTION, placement and listening position are going to have the greatest effect on what you will hear from the speakers. And bass traps too, but you already have that well covered.

Most importantly, before doing any treatment, you should set up the monitors and mix position. Then you can actually hear what will be a problem and what isn't a factor at all. Sometimes the room modes are actually musical and contribute to the sound, usually in a specific key or keys. They are actually modes by the same definition as when talking about scales/key, and ideally a room mode will match the most common keys/modes that music you're working with is based on.
Old 17th August 2018
  #8
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ReDRuMx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
Definitely way too many absorber panels if your walls aren't double-layered sheetrock with mass loaded vinyl or some other mass loading technique between layers. In normal residential construction, the walls already serve as Heilmholtz absorbers in the lower-mids, upper-bass registers. It's very easy to overkill on the absorbtion, especially with a big fluffy mattress (which is in the ideal place actually).

I would definitely take the green absorbers off the bathroom wall and place them on the ceiling in the early/direct reflection zone. Also remove all the other panels except the corner traps, and only place panels if you can't set up the listening position to exclued direct/early reflections; obviously that's where the panels would go if you can't. More panels actually exacerbates standing waves unless you're going full anechoic. Usually what happens is that everything except the standing waves get absorbed, making them anything but ambiguous. You don't want that. The rear wall should have a panel most likely, if the bed isn't doing the trick.

In a room that size and shape, monitor SELECTION, placement and listening position are going to have the greatest effect on what you will hear from the speakers. And bass traps too, but you already have that well covered.

Most importantly, before doing any treatment, you should set up the monitors and mix position. Then you can actually hear what will be a problem and what isn't a factor at all. Sometimes the room modes are actually musical and contribute to the sound, usually in a specific key or keys. They are actually modes by the same definition as when talking about scales/key, and ideally a room mode will match the most common keys/modes that music you're working with is based on.
OP, I know it's hard to judge whether or not a random person on an internet forum knows what they are talking about or not.

I vote you completely disregard the above quoted message. I hope regulars here will help you by agreeing with me

P.S. - psykostx - Respectfully, I have no interest in engaging in an argument about your interpretation of reality. Please feel free to label me as ignorant or uninformed, I'll take no offense
Old 17th August 2018
  #9
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Typically 16 panels is a bare minimum approach. A pro room could devote upwards of 60% of room volume to treatment. Bass trapping takes lots of volume or pressure based absorbers to be effective. Typically, wood slats, panels, or something similar will be added later to balance decay times. First, measure your room with REW and determine speaker and listening position
Old 20th August 2018
  #10
Gear Nut
 
Tholennon's Avatar
Thanks for the advices guys!

I'm still wondering if I should set the monitors where I drew on the sketch initially or if I should place them on the opposite wall (where is a door at the left side wall), instead of put them "almost in the middle" of the room as I drew next to the bathroom wall... in a first analysis, which side you guys think that would be a better spot? I could re-organize all other stuffs in the room (bed, wardrobe... etc...).

I really want take advantage on this "room size" to have great acoustics.
Old 20th August 2018
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReDRuMx View Post
OP, I know it's hard to judge whether or not a random person on an internet forum knows what they are talking about or not.

I vote you completely disregard the above quoted message. I hope regulars here will help you by agreeing with me

P.S. - psykostx - Respectfully, I have no interest in engaging in an argument about your interpretation of reality. Please feel free to label me as ignorant or uninformed, I'll take no offense
Haha. Another stalker complete with sockpuppet thumbs-uppers. Great. You're right, the OP needs at least 50 more wall panels. You can't mix in a room unless you can hear the blood rushing through your veins, and when you fart is sounds like a dry vintage Moog VCO set to square wave. And don't forget the plexi-glass at direct reflection zones. The more of that "robot" echo, the better your stereo image will be. (sarcasm)

OP note the brilliant rebuttal and counterpoints suggested, the utter lack of proof that anything I said was incorrect, add to that the snarky attitude, now who is trying to help you and who is trolling somebody who probably won an argument against them and now their embittered?
Old 20th August 2018
  #12
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You guys are forgetting the OP doesn't have a $10,000 set of speakers with four mono-blocks, all set up for mid-field monitoring. The room is not much of a factor at the distance and levels the OP is listening at.

Trust me dude, if your walls aren't mass-loaded, too much absorbtion is very easy to acheive. All you need to do is kill the direct reflection points and disperse back wall reflections and you're golden. Even the corner traps from floor to ceiling are overkill. Especially if the room is carpeted. Too dead is much worse than slightly too live.

I've been building speakers and studios for well over 20 years. I've set up some of the best speakers and amplifiers money can buy in some very large and also very tiny rooms. I grew up with HiFi, in a very affluent area. I've heard $25,000 setups that sounded crap and $350 setups that blew me away. If you set up the gear the way it was designed to be set up and choose the right gear for your situation, you'll be more than satisfied. A 1500watt system in a 12x10x8 room is never going to sound good no matter how much absorbtion you plaster all over the place. The right tools for the work and move on. That simple, don't bang your head against the wall over it.
Old 20th August 2018
  #13
Gear Addict
 
ReDRuMx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tholennon View Post
Thanks for the advices guys!

I'm still wondering if I should set the monitors where I drew on the sketch initially or if I should place them on the opposite wall (where is a door at the left side wall), instead of put them "almost in the middle" of the room as I drew next to the bathroom wall... in a first analysis, which side you guys think that would be a better spot? I could re-organize all other stuffs in the room (bed, wardrobe... etc...).

I really want take advantage on this "room size" to have great acoustics.
It really depends, it is very hard to predict such things. If I had to pick one, I'd probably say that speakers close to the "opposite" wall would be a better choice.

Superchunks in corners. Early (mirror) reflection points (including ceiling) as thick and large as possible.

But perhaps measure with REW a couple different setups to give you an idea of what's happening.
Old 20th August 2018
  #14
Gear Guru
Test

Test Trumps Theory. Windows absorb and allow bass to escape. In a sense your room is somewhat of a Limp Bag.
So all bets and rules of thumb are especially useless here.
As Red said, measure LF response, including modal, waterfalls.
It may give you a clear answer as to where to or where not to place speakers and listener.
One rule of thumb or recommendation seems to be always valid. CLOUD.
Also, again echoing Red, the BIGGER SSCS are great. But if you have the space, Square Soffit Style traps are even bigger.
Back to the future..... we have no idea of the acoustic response of this room. REW? Even a verbal description, what does it sound like? A recording of speaking or singing, or an acoustic instrument in there.
Or a loud balloon burst.

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 21st August 2018 at 03:53 AM..
Old 21st August 2018
  #15
Gear Nut
 
Tholennon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
Trust me dude, if your walls aren't mass-loaded, too much absorbtion is very easy to acheive. All you need to do is kill the direct reflection points and disperse back wall reflections and you're golden. Even the corner traps from floor to ceiling are overkill. Especially if the room is carpeted. Too dead is much worse than slightly too live.
The walls here are towed brick made...
Old 21st August 2018
  #16
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Tholennon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReDRuMx View Post
It really depends, it is very hard to predict such things. If I had to pick one, I'd probably say that speakers close to the "opposite" wall would be a better choice.

Superchunks in corners. Early (mirror) reflection points (including ceiling) as thick and large as possible.

But perhaps measure with REW a couple different setups to give you an idea of what's happening.

I thought of it too, but I was concerned with not reach a "symmetrical" room, because I would need to put the wardrobe on the right wall (looking in front of the bathroom), and killing my options to place panels or bass traps...

I'm thinking on use this kind of corner traps...
Corner Bass Traps


I will try to measure the room acoustics firs of all as you guys suggested...
Old 21st August 2018
  #17
I'm with ReDRuMx about moving to the opposite wall. That clears up your bathroom access while allowing you to get the speakers closer to the (new) front wall.

And ditto what DanDan said about the cloud, the big SSCs or square soffits. More stuff in the corners will be better, always.
Old 21st August 2018
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
You guys are forgetting the OP doesn't have a $10,000 set of speakers with four mono-blocks, all set up for mid-field monitoring. The room is not much of a factor at the distance and levels the OP is listening at.

Trust me dude, if your walls aren't mass-loaded, too much absorbtion is very easy to acheive. All you need to do is kill the direct reflection points and disperse back wall reflections and you're golden. Even the corner traps from floor to ceiling are overkill. Especially if the room is carpeted. Too dead is much worse than slightly too live.

I've been building speakers and studios for well over 20 years. I've set up some of the best speakers and amplifiers money can buy in some very large and also very tiny rooms. I grew up with HiFi, in a very affluent area. I've heard $25,000 setups that sounded crap and $350 setups that blew me away. If you set up the gear the way it was designed to be set up and choose the right gear for your situation, you'll be more than satisfied. A 1500watt system in a 12x10x8 room is never going to sound good no matter how much absorbtion you plaster all over the place. The right tools for the work and move on. That simple, don't bang your head against the wall over it.
I find myself fixing many rooms with overkill acoustics. Good points.
Old 21st August 2018
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tholennon View Post
The walls here are towed brick made...
That makes a huge difference in approach. It's a good thing as far as battling room modes, and also exposed brick is a great diffusor of high frequencies. If you can expose the brick on the back wall, use the most high performance floor-to-ceiling corner traps you can find, and then kill any spots where the speakers reflect from the walls/floor/ceiling to the listening position, you're in business.

To summarize, corner traps, one panel on the ceiling halfway between the listening position and the speakers, same on each wall and use an area rug for the floor in the same way, and diffuse the rear wall and maybe the rear 1/3 of the side walls. Done.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #20
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
That makes a huge difference in approach. It's a good thing as far as battling room modes, and also exposed brick is a great diffusor of high frequencies. If you can expose the brick on the back wall, use the most high performance floor-to-ceiling corner traps you can find, and then kill any spots where the speakers reflect from the walls/floor/ceiling to the listening position, you're in business.

To summarize, corner traps, one panel on the ceiling halfway between the listening position and the speakers, same on each wall and use an area rug for the floor in the same way, and diffuse the rear wall and maybe the rear 1/3 of the side walls. Done.
Im no expert by any means but i have some concerns with these statements. Can you please help clarify the effectiveness of the following or point me in the dirrection of some test data so that i may learn from this?

1. I believe the brick will only reinforce the room modes making them more powerful as they will not be absorbed by a resonant wall cavity dampened by insulation? Please correct me if im wrong here.

2. Without seeing the brick its hard to know, but typically we are talking about a half inch mortar line indented maybe a quarter of an inch. This would be invisible to almost all but the higest frequencies. I cant see any useable diffusion here. Again, please correct me if im wrong.

3. In a small rooms, reflections from the backwall can be quite detrimental at the listening position from what ive read. Often thick rear wall treatment is desired.

4. I 100% agree that floor to ceiling corner traps are a great idea.

5. One panel for a ceiling cloud only makes sense to me if its rather large. Like 6'x4' or larger.

6. Im not sure how effective an area rug would be at taming floor bounce. It seems it would only attenuate very high frequencies, but not be effective at low to mid frequencies.

7. Ive always understood diffusion to not be effective in small rooms for anything but breaking up flutter echo. Am i incorrect? Or was that your intention in your advice?

Thanks for your time.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #21
Gear Nut
 
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I cant expose the bricks... this is out of question...

I dont want to transform this bedroom in a pro studio, but yes, it needs and I know it will be possible to improve the acoustics, mainly speaking about the echo it does... I just think that some panels could decrease the echo/reverberation on this room... and also, Im concerned about to get a good symmetry to reach a good acoustic...

what you guys think about the corner traps I'm wondering to use? Corner Bass Traps
Old 22nd August 2018
  #22
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tholennon View Post

I dont want to transform this bedroom in a pro studio, but yes, it needs and I know it will be possible to improve the acoustics
I read that exact statement a lot, and it makes me sad. Its like you give in to the idea that your room cant be great before you even start.. Having a good frequency response and decay times doesnt make it pro or not pro, and you dont have to spend a fortune to get good results. Ive seen quite a few average rooms with +/- 5db responses and balanced decay times just by throwing up a few hundred dollars worth of the right insulation and taking the time to find the sweet spot in their room. And belive me, there are tons of "pro" rooms with terrible acoustics. Take your time and learn the basics and there is no reason you cant end up with a room to be proud of without breaking the bank.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Im no expert by any means but i have some concerns with these statements. Can you please help clarify the effectiveness of the following or point me in the dirrection of some test data so that i may learn from this?

1. I believe the brick will only reinforce the room modes making them more powerful as they will not be absorbed by a resonant wall cavity dampened by insulation? Please correct me if im wrong here.

2. Without seeing the brick its hard to know, but typically we are talking about a half inch mortar line indented maybe a quarter of an inch. This would be invisible to almost all but the higest frequencies. I cant see any useable diffusion here. Again, please correct me if im wrong.

3. In a small rooms, reflections from the backwall can be quite detrimental at the listening position from what ive read. Often thick rear wall treatment is desired.

4. I 100% agree that floor to ceiling corner traps are a great idea.

5. One panel for a ceiling cloud only makes sense to me if its rather large. Like 6'x4' or larger.

6. Im not sure how effective an area rug would be at taming floor bounce. It seems it would only attenuate very high frequencies, but not be effective at low to mid frequencies.

7. Ive always understood diffusion to not be effective in small rooms for anything but breaking up flutter echo. Am i incorrect? Or was that your intention in your advice?

Thanks for your time.
1. Whoever told you that room modes are a force of evil has a large surplus of acoustical foam to sell you. The brick will actually make the room modes more focused and less muddy. The corner traps will alleviate them to a large extent at reasonable listening volumes. Also, if room modes are musically aligned, they're prone to make everything you record sound equally more musical. Every room has modes, it's unavoidable, and they're IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate completely. You are always forced to work with them.

2. I agree, it would only affect the highest frequencies, those your brain uses for spatial reference and stereo imaging. Also, aside from the mortar lines, I know of no human bricklayer that lays an entire wall with every brick perfectly flush, nor a brick manufacturer that makes bricks with perfectly smooth faces. These little things all add up, plus the texture of the brick itself allows air to penetrate it, which means that soundwaves may reflect from different depths withing the brick's surface, which means delays randomly occurring, which is time diffusion, rather than spatial/directional diffusion.

3. There is a bed against the back wall. The back wall is one of the two narrow walls surrounding a rectangular room. The chances that a direct reflection off the back wall reach the listening position are minimal, and if the speakers are angled at all, won't be reflections of on-axis sound, and will therefore be negligible.

4. Especially because the brick will enhance the room modes.

5. I'm assuming he's using 2'x4' panels of rockwool. One panel halfway between the monitors and listening position should be plenty to stop any direct reflections from being loud enough to matter.

6. The only frequencies that would matter in this case are the high frequencies, as most monitors and speakers in general are designed with floor reflections in mind when designing a frequency response.

7. Exactly why I reccommend it, for breaking the slap between the rear 1/3 of the side walls.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #24
Gear Guru
Distraction

Hi Tholennon. Those Corner Traps look good. SoffiTraps of say 24" square are simple frame and use light cheap fibre. Worth considering if you have the space. These would be much bigger.
Your thread contains contradictions which are a waste of everyone's time and energy. I recommend you use the ignore function to clear it up.
Jason, Red, Mike, are all well informed generous helpful people.
Have you done any REW tests yet?

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 22nd August 2018 at 02:18 PM..
Old 23rd August 2018
  #25
Gear Nut
 
Tholennon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Hi Tholennon. Those Corner Traps look good. SoffiTraps of say 24" square are simple frame and use light cheap fibre. Worth considering if you have the space. These would be much bigger.
Your thread contains contradictions which are a waste of everyone's time and energy. I recommend you use the ignore function to clear it up.
Jason, Red, Mike, are all well informed generous helpful people.
Have you done any REW tests yet?

DD
Nice!!

Thanks DanDAn, I will try to make the REW test firsts... but I will need to buy a measure mic.

So... meanwhile, I will begin with the configuration I sketched... just for now... and see what goes on..


Im using Yamaha's Hs8, I will use that triangular bass trap corners because I think it will consume less room space and gonna be better visually speaking.

I will try to put some panels on the ceiling, where Im gonna be producing (the problem there is a ceiling ventilator there....), and two more panels both side walls on the first reflections.... and I will try to make all panels and corner traps reaching floor to ceiling.

what measurement mic do you guys recommend to use with REW (there is some other software too?)

What about reference 4 by sonarworks?
Old 23rd August 2018
  #26
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You can hang the cloud off the ceiling with chain or wire.

Make the cloud and side wall panels as thick as you can. Thickness will dictate the materials used.

Sonarworks or dirac live are both good.

This is a good, calibrated mic
Acoustic Measurement Tools : UMIK-1
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