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Are 6-7 feet or 1,94 meter too much distance between Nearfields?
Old 14th August 2018
  #31
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Trust you ears. You will hear your work in the real world. If you are mixing dull, turn down your tweeters. That is Mixing, for the listener, in a real untreated room. A game of opposites.
On the Acoustics side.....
Newell's Non Environment. Big Headphones with a central +6dB summing of all the main musical elements.
DD
I hear you - you like a tilted treble response.

I tried the treble roll off on my system - for now i like the brightness i get without it.

Can be that it makes my ears tired a little faster but i leave it straight for now.
This is just because i love to hear the details in commercial songs at the moment. And i find that i can hear reverb tails and such things much easier.

While mixing it can be helpful as you don´t have to care much about every detail cause the song as a complete thing has to sound good.
nobody cares how the kick sounds in solo if it rocks in the track.

In a mastering situation i think it can be of benefit to have any curve that suites the engineers listening likings.

I am pretty sure, that a lot of the unusual placement of speakers that you often see is just preference.


I see very often speakers with near to zero toe in. And most of the speakers roll off high frequencies at increasing off axis performance relative to the ears.
I am sure a lot of guys tilt their preferred frequency curve with off axis placement of speakers without thinking about it - they just listen till they get the curve they like. overall this is a very subjektive thing and part of what you are used to.
I i let my wife eq a car radio i have to listen to the biggest smiley in the world. she likes bass and treble and does not care much about midrange. so i guess even customers have different taste in this regard.

Tom
Old 14th August 2018
  #32
Gear Guru
Taste

The Bruel and Kjaer curve is an average of what people were hearing on their Hi Fi in their homes. I think that says the average taste is tilted 6dB. Sonarworks repeated the research in recent times. The result is very similar, so it seems peoples taste has not changed over decades, even with different style of equipment and decor. Within an averaged group of course some will like bright others will be Rastafari! But it is the average we work for. A great mix will sound very similar everywhere.
Ultimately, for a Mix engineer, if you find your work dull in the real world, turn down the HF and you will automatically get it right for outside. Many people work away without regard to translation, leaving the 'fix' to Mastering. My best work is not Mastered at all. In a dead room, the path from tweeter to ear is untainted by comb filtering. I find I hear too much! I don't add sparkle or remove muddiness, because it all sounds clear. But this does not represent the real world. Short of visiting everyone's home to check the mix, BK works.
Yes PMC install instructions for their big speakers specify off axis listening. The tweeter is way above head height and only slightly toed in, 10-15 degrees. But they are HF boosted on axis! Apparently this creates a wider than normal sweet spot.
The ear/brain don't hear HF and LF well at all at low volume. Boosting the extremes is very similar to just turning up the volume. Perhaps safer!

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 14th August 2018 at 01:27 PM..
Old 15th August 2018
  #33
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
The Bruel and Kjaer curve is an average of what people were hearing on their Hi Fi in their homes. I think that says the average taste is tilted 6dB. Sonarworks repeated the research in recent times. The result is very similar, so it seems peoples taste has not changed over decades, even with different style of equipment and decor. Within an averaged group of course some will like bright others will be Rastafari! But it is the average we work for. A great mix will sound very similar everywhere.
Ultimately, for a Mix engineer, if you find your work dull in the real world, turn down the HF and you will automatically get it right for outside. Many people work away without regard to translation, leaving the 'fix' to Mastering. My best work is not Mastered at all. In a dead room, the path from tweeter to ear is untainted by comb filtering. I find I hear too much! I don't add sparkle or remove muddiness, because it all sounds clear. But this does not represent the real world. Short of visiting everyone's home to check the mix, BK works.
Yes PMC install instructions for their big speakers specify off axis listening. The tweeter is way above head height and only slightly toed in, 10-15 degrees. But they are HF boosted on axis! Apparently this creates a wider than normal sweet spot.
The ear/brain don't hear HF and LF well at all at low volume. Boosting the extremes is very similar to just turning up the volume. Perhaps safer!

DD


Nice to read. I did a little research about what you wrote and it is really interesting.

Somehow i still have the feeling that i am doing something wrong with my speakers that far apart.

I hope that it is just the lack of experience that tells my mind, that my speakers are too far apart.


I don´t know why i can not get rid of this feeling.


May be that i looked at too much pictures of people with speakers on their console…


Tom
Old 15th August 2018
  #34
Gear Guru
Inverse

A guy came to me with a home recorded album. Mix n Master.
Every night he went home with Draft Mixes. Every next morning he requested revisions to dial back the panning. Grand, they ended up not very exciting in that way, but musically cohesive I guess. Months later I happened to be reading about the Headphone vs Speaker issue as I was buying GoodHertz CanOpener Studio.
Hmmm. I rang him and asked him what he was using for Monitors at home...... Turned out he did all his listening on nice Beyer Headphones.

So, the game of Inverses. If your monitoring is wide, you will mix narrow, and vice versa. BUT, the brain rules. One gets used to a huge variety. Freelance, baffled by the extremely variable sound in commercial studios, I always brought and relied on my Sennheiser 380s. My vocal and other central levels translated to speakers, everywhere, just fine, despite the 6dB anomaly.
DD
Old 15th August 2018
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
A guy came to me with a home recorded album. Mix n Master.
Every night he went home with Draft Mixes. Every next morning he requested revisions to dial back the panning. Grand, they ended up not very exciting in that way, but musically cohesive I guess. Months later I happened to be reading about the Headphone vs Speaker issue as I was buying GoodHertz CanOpener Studio.
Hmmm. I rang him and asked him what he was using for Monitors at home...... Turned out he did all his listening on nice Beyer Headphones.

So, the game of Inverses. If your monitoring is wide, you will mix narrow, and vice versa. BUT, the brain rules. One gets used to a huge variety. Freelance, baffled by the extremely variable sound in commercial studios, I always brought and relied on my Sennheiser 380s. My vocal and other central levels translated to speakers, everywhere, just fine, despite the 6dB anomaly.
DD
I understand what you want to say.

But it was really a lot of work to treat the room like i did. And now i only get a good response in the room if i place the speakers somewhere where i apperntly do not want them to be.

Makes me think if it was worth all the effort.

Tom
Old 15th August 2018
  #36
Gear Guru
Response

I would place Bass Response as top priority. One easily gets used to or compensates for stereo width. What are you speakers?
Some have options as to width. e.g. Those dual woofer ADAM and EVE and Focal and the Neumann KH310

DD
Old 15th August 2018
  #37
Lives for gear
 
Jens Eklund's Avatar
Regarding target curves:

Acoustics Issue

It is important to differentiate between steady state response and gated (direct sound only) response. Most people prefer a flat direct sound (at least in the mids and up) according to studies: Acoustics Issue

How the steady state (un-gated) responce looks like will depend heavily on the room. If only "treated" shomewhat with thin absorbers (or things acting as absorbers if domestic circumstances), the ungated response might look as if it has a high frequency tilt even if the direct sound measured flat. The proper way of doing it is naturally to look at the gated response (direct sound) when judging the shape of the upper frequency range.
Old 15th August 2018
  #38
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Regarding target curves:

Acoustics Issue

It is important to differentiate between steady state response and gated (direct sound only) response. Most people prefer a flat direct sound (at least in the mids and up) according to studies. How the steady state (un-gated) responce looks like will depend heavily on the room. If only "treated" shomewhat with thin absorbers (or things acting as absorbers if domestic circumstances), the ungated response might look as if it has a high frequency tilt even if the direct sound measured flat. The proper way of doing it is naturally to look at the gated response (direct sound) when judeging the shape of the upper frequency range.
Thanks for your comment Jens.

I would be happy to be in the situation of just thinking about the shape of the upper frequencies.

At the moment i would be really very interested what you think about the distance between my speakers?

It can be a little difficult to comprehend my situation. So if you did not read my first posts here... I am one (and i have the impression that this is somewhat rare) of those guys who first treated his room before he started to try mixing.

I am at the beginning of starting mixing. I have now a treated room and get a good response and good measurements.

I just do not know if it is good for me to start mixing at a distance that to me seems to be to big. But i will mention it once again: I know a s**t about the real problems with mix translations cause the experience therefore lacks to hell.

Thanks
Tom
Old 15th August 2018
  #39
Lives for gear
 
Jens Eklund's Avatar
As long as you can manage an equilateral triangle betveen the speakers and your neck (or at least close to it), the distance does not matter much as long as your measurements looks good.
Old 15th August 2018
  #40
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
As long as you can manage an equilateral triangle betveen the speakers and your neck (or at least close to it), the distance does not matter much as long as your measurements looks good.

Yes it is equilateral.

Each side 194 cm.

My listening position is 30 cm "inside" the triangle measured from the tip.

15 cm in front of this position starts my table (45 cm from the tip of the triangle)


The closer i move my listening postion to the speakers - the more a floor bounce comes into play.

the more i move away with the speaker from the side wall - the more side wall sbir comes intro play.

Both issues are constant in the front half of the room.

Of course if i move away from the front wall with my speakers while trying such things the more an issue caused by front wall sbir comes into play.
And if i move the whole triangle testing setup to the back half of the room an issue from the back wall comes into play.

The frequency issues caused by floor and sidewall are both in the area between 100 and 160. One can find a spot where both meet and you get a huge null.
Funny that i know how to exact find a lot of bad postions for my speakers... but only one good.

Blocking the Floor Bounce works partly - but big desk suface = not so nice. And it would still leave the side wall issue.

So i guess i only have to options:
Be thankful for the one good spot and learn how to mix there.

Or adapt to a null between 100 and 160 hz.

Tom
Old 15th August 2018
  #41
Lives for gear
 
Lumbergh's Avatar
 

Quit faffing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomthetom View Post
But it was really a lot of work to treat the room like i did. And now i only get a good response in the room if i place the speakers somewhere where i apperntly do not want them to be.
You are going round in circles. You have a room response most home mixers would kill for. So you have to make a decision, do you want:

* A room that sounds great

or

* A room that looks like other peoples' compromised home studios.


6' is about ideal for nearfields, given a room which can handle it. People generally only use 4-5' because they are mixing ITB on an Ikea desk in their tiny spare room. If you see closely spaced monitors on the console penthouse in a decent size studio its so they dont get in the way of the main near/midfield monitors.

Your call, make it!
Old 15th August 2018
  #42
Gear Guru
Mixing

You seem well versed in tech Tom. Mixing is an odd one, there are theories and things to know and learn, but many suggest it really lies at the other side of the brain. My earliest mentor, Nicky Ryan, Enya's Producer, often asked me to do techie jobs, e.g. Graphics at a concert, or how to sample using a Sony F1......
He spoke of having to turn off what he did know in order to mix. Hippy stuff, but his mixes were extraordinarily exciting, often composed of horrible individual sounds. Boomy bass, scratchy fiddles....
Translation is the goal, and the game of inverses is your friend. Mixes dull in the real world, turn down your tweeter and you will hit the nail on the head next time. If your mixes are bass light, turn down your woofers. Still mixing too dark!!
It is utterly pointless to not consider that your audience listen to a summed room and speaker tone. None except our iBuddies) experience Direct Field. You can simulate real world conditions in your CR by say adding room tone, Altiverb in 4.0, or just go with the summed FR. Or bring your mix rig to peoples houses!

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 15th August 2018 at 10:23 PM..
Old 15th August 2018
  #43
Lives for gear
 
Lumbergh's Avatar
 

Nicky's SCM20s were about 6' apart right?
Old 15th August 2018
  #44
Gear Guru
Good Old Days

At least 6', memory suggests even wider. My first albums were in their home studio. An ex scout hall shed in the back garden. Carpet on the walls, floor, even the ceiling I think. Warm! The Speakers were KEF domestic, plastic bodies. I guess the SCM's came later. I believe he has some PSI now.
They were on concrete block stands at either side of a big home made desk, wide.
This was a Sean Davies (BBC) design, sort of half way between a Neve and an SSL. It was built by the alleged non tech Nicky and Enya and Roma.
Built like a tank, you could actually walk across it without fear of damage.
DD
Old 15th August 2018
  #45
Lives for gear
 
Lumbergh's Avatar
 

Ah must have been before (or after?) I was at Aigle, we installed the SSL and wired the room while it was still a building site (for years!) He had mains (cant remember what) and an ATC surround system at the time. Burly but lovely bloke
Old 15th August 2018
  #46
Here for the gear
 

Your measurements results are really impressive.
Can you share a picture of your room?
Additionally what is the wool you used for treatment?

Congrats on results especially that you achieved so much following your ears.
Old 15th August 2018
  #47
You know, I hadn't messed around with the numbers of your room in REW's room simulator but started reading over the thread again to see if maybe the answer is in there.

I want to make sure I understand what you said earlier and let you know what I see.

You said your speakers are 101.5cm from the front wall and 78cm from the side wall.
Listening position is 237.5cm from front wall.

Is that all correct?

The simulation graph for this setup is the first picture below. It looks nothing like what you measured but it does show a big null around 120Hz which you said you've had to avoid with speaker placement.

The things that look wrong to me are the fact that the speakers are too far from the front wall and you're almost sitting in the middle of the room, which is not good. The 60cm of treatment on the front wall keeps you from getting the speakers any closer, right?

What you probably don't want to hear is that you may want to remove the treatment on the front wall, move the speakers closer to the wall and move your listening position forward as well. You could still treat the area above and below the window (the corners mostly) but leave an area of the wall bare so you can push the speakers up much closer-almost touching.

New position measurements:

Speakers 38cm from the front wall and 90cm from the side wall.
Listening position is 176cm from front wall.

The distance between the speakers would be more like 170cm. A little tighter and more focused, I would think.

The more I thought about it, it seemed like there was something not making sense, like I'd missed some detail. This makes more sense but you may not want to go this far after all you've done.

I'm not even getting into mix translation issues here (that's another story), but let me know if this may be something you want to do? This is entirely because of you saying the room didn't feel right and I understand what you mean!
Attached Thumbnails
Are 6-7 feet or 1,94 meter too much distance between Nearfields?-current-layout.jpg   Are 6-7 feet or 1,94 meter too much distance between Nearfields?-proposed-layout.jpg  

Last edited by Mike's Mix Room; 15th August 2018 at 10:43 PM.. Reason: Added something
Old 15th August 2018
  #48
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumbergh View Post
You are going round in circles. You have a room response most home mixers would kill for. So you have to make a decision, do you want:

* A room that sounds great

or

* A room that looks like other peoples' compromised home studios.


6' is about ideal for nearfields, given a room which can handle it. People generally only use 4-5' because they are mixing ITB on an Ikea desk in their tiny spare room. If you see closely spaced monitors on the console penthouse in a decent size studio its so they dont get in the way of the main near/midfield monitors.

Your call, make it!
Many thanks for your response.

I think I just lack practical experience.

I've done it the other way round as most people do.

I first took care of the room and start mixing now.

Of course I played a bit but not as long as most before they decide to take care of the room.

However, those who practice mixing first have the advantage over me of knowing what it means that a mix can be transferred poorly.
I know nothing in this regard.

I asked the question about the distance because I just looked at pictures of studios and I leaned on theory.
And by theory, I mean what is predominantly to be found on the Internet.
And it's written quite often that 5 or 6 feet is optimal.

And mine are more than 6 feet apart and I did not know if that was ok.
I just want to make sure that i don´t create myself problems with later translation because i have them at a greater distance.


Tom
Old 15th August 2018
  #49
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
You seem well versed in tech Tom. Mixing is an odd one, there are theories and things to know and learn, but many suggest it really lies at the other side of the brain.
DD
Thanks for the kind words.
It is hard to rely just on theory.
My plan was to first treat the room and then start making my first really steps regarding mixing. And now i just want to make sure that i am fine with what i have done so far.

Tom
Old 15th August 2018
  #50
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michalgrim View Post
Your measurements results are really impressive.
Can you share a picture of your room?
Additionally what is the wool you used for treatment?

Congrats on results especially that you achieved so much following your ears.

Are 6-7 feet or 1,94 meter too much distance between Nearfields?


In post 21 of this thread i explain the treatment.

The room still has some beauty flaws.

Here and there a few wooden strips to cover stapler needles, etc.

I have to think about whether I really want to post a picture. I do not even have a Facebook account …

I do not like to put private stuff on the internet.

Tom
Old 15th August 2018
  #51
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike's Mix Room View Post
You know, I hadn't messed around with the numbers of your room in REW's room simulator but started reading over the thread again to see if maybe the answer is in there.

I want to make sure I understand what you said earlier and let you know what I see.

You said your speakers are 101.5cm from the front wall and 78cm from the side wall.
Listening position is 237.5cm from front wall.

Is that all correct?

The simulation graph for this setup is the first picture below. It looks nothing like what you measured but it does show a big null around 120Hz which you said you've had to avoid with speaker placement.

The things that look wrong to me are the fact that the speakers are too far from the front wall and you're almost sitting in the middle of the room, which is not good. The 60cm of treatment on the front wall keeps you from getting the speakers any closer, right?

What you probably don't want to hear is that you may want to remove the treatment on the front wall, move the speakers closer to the wall and move your listening position forward as well. You could still treat the area above and below the window (the corners mostly) but leave an area of the wall bare so you can push the speakers up much closer-almost touching.

New position measurements:

Speakers 38cm from the front wall and 90cm from the side wall.
Listening position is 176cm from front wall.

The distance between the speakers would be more like 170cm. A little tighter and more focused, I would think.

The more I thought about it, it seemed like there was something not making sense, like I'd missed some detail. This makes more sense but you may not want to go this far after all you've done.

I'm not even getting into mix translation issues here (that's another story), but let me know if this may be something you want to do? This is entirely because of you saying the room didn't feel right and I understand what you mean!
Thanks!

I am not sure if you can really rely on this simulator.

I think DanDan will know it - but i am not sure if this one includes boundary interference issues.

I played with it a lot but it does not show the truth. I think it is like with most mode calculators that it expects a sealed rectangular room. I have a window, i have a door, i have a concrete floor, sheetrock ceiling side and backwall, brickwall front wall.

I would not expect this calculator to show the real thing, maybe if you are sitting in a concrete bunker.

I am really happy to see your effort - but the thick front wall treatment is also a reason that you see not much modal ringing in the waterfall graph.

I am not sure if it would be an overall improvement to take the front wall treatment away. And this is not so easy. It is a complete framework that is filled behind with glass wool. not single parts. i am pretty sure that the front part plays also a role by holding the ceiling treatment in place…

I am not sure about your idea.

Also it is save that it is a interference with the side wall and the floor that causes the problem by creating a smaller triangle. i am not sure if a placement nearer to the front wall will change that much...
Old 15th August 2018
  #52
I know the simulator is not always accurate, but it has helped me predict things and see what changes when I move the speakers and listening position in different directions. It was really close to what I measured when I was messing with my room setup, so I trust it somewhat, but always verify.

I figured that your treatment was in no way portable, so I figured it wouldn't be able to be moved...but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I was also just trying to offer a solution to help the room feel better (as you had said was a problem).

It's not like your room is a problem, right?

More mixing and seeing how your mixes sound in other environments will be helpful in figuring out how your room performs. Most of us start our careers mixing in awful rooms and get better despite this. I know for me that I just got tired of not trusting the low end as I heard it in the studio. That's always been my quest.

You're starting off with a good room. That may help you get better, faster!
Old 16th August 2018
  #53
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike's Mix Room View Post
I know the simulator is not always accurate, but it has helped me predict things and see what changes when I move the speakers and listening position in different directions. It was really close to what I measured when I was messing with my room setup, so I trust it somewhat, but always verify.

I figured that your treatment was in no way portable, so I figured it wouldn't be able to be moved...but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I was also just trying to offer a solution to help the room feel better (as you had said was a problem).

It's not like your room is a problem, right?

More mixing and seeing how your mixes sound in other environments will be helpful in figuring out how your room performs. Most of us start our careers mixing in awful rooms and get better despite this. I know for me that I just got tired of not trusting the low end as I heard it in the studio. That's always been my quest.

You're starting off with a good room. That may help you get better, faster!

yes. but i would be really interested what would happen if i can get closer to the front wall. It is a thing that often works. I have to look at my drawings of the frame construction. Maybe it is not so hard to try it.
i just fear the dust by putting out the glasswool at the front wall.
But that could be solved by using foil (used by painters) and cover everything else in the room to not get the dust into the fabric.

If it is not impossible - i mean if the ceiling treatment will stay in place - i guess it could be tested. It would be for sure work for around one day but i think i will try this.

If that works and does not make other things worse - and even when the speakers again need to be spaced so far apart -> i would gain more space in the room.

I would be wrong to say your idea is bad :-)
Old 16th August 2018
  #54
Yeah, even if you discount what the simulator says, those two things are always better: speakers close the the front wall, and not listening from the middle of the room. That's true in almost any room.

I understand how much work it could be, though (I haven't seen pictures yet!) so I'd understand not wanting to move anything. It will be a mess!
Old 16th August 2018
  #55
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomthetom View Post
I have to think about whether I really want to post a picture. I do not even have a Facebook account …

I do not like to put private stuff on the internet.

Tom
its 2018
we will not come to visit you ininvited
noone will streal your personal data based on room picture
Old 16th August 2018
  #56
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michalgrim View Post
its 2018
we will not come to visit you ininvited
noone will streal your personal data based on room picture

Sure. As i said. If everything is finished i think about posting a pic.

kind greetings
Tom
Old 16th August 2018
  #57
Lives for gear
pics or it didn't happen!
Old 16th August 2018
  #58
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
pics or it didn't happen!
Old 16th August 2018
  #59
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike's Mix Room View Post
Yeah, even if you discount what the simulator says, those two things are always better: speakers close the the front wall, and not listening from the middle of the room. That's true in almost any room.

I understand how much work it could be, though (I haven't seen pictures yet!) so I'd understand not wanting to move anything. It will be a mess!

I measured again today.

It's hard to believe. But the frequency curve is a bit flatter than in the picture I posted.

And I put the mic right in the middle of the room. But right in the middle. Triangle of 1,94 meter. Unbelievable how much everything can change after the strong treatment. This is normal a no-go position for the listener.

Now let's summarize:

I have good measurements. I have received several times the feedback that the speaker position is okay.

That's good to know.

I know that I can definitely work in the room very well.

And even if everyone now thinks I'm crazy.

I took a day's vacation for tomorrow.

I've just covered everything in the room with foil.

And I'll break down tonight and tomorrow parts of the front wall treatment to see what happens when I push the speakers closer to the front wall.

I am not convinced that I will find a better position. But I see the opportunity. This is worth 2 days more work. I've been building the room for almost half a year now. 2 days more will be ok.

I will report again (presumably that it was pointless ...)

Tom
Old 16th August 2018
  #60
After all you've done already, it's admirable that you're willing to try a different position. It may not be better, but it might. There's only one way to know.

This more goes back to you saying the room didn't feel right, despite what the graphs are saying. I get it.

I used to do sessions at a fairly big studio (which is huge now) from time to time. They hired Coco Brandon to tune their room once, and when I heard what he did, I was blown away. I had never heard big monitors sound that good. The image was big, tall, clear, the low end was fast and easy to hear. It was incredible.

The next time they needed to tune the room (because someone messed with it) they hired a different guy. He's a highly respected room tuning guy, and was a wonderful to hang with. He really knew his stuff and his rig. After he tuned the room, I hated it. I was there when he tuned it, saw the graphs, and saw everything he did. But despite all of the evidence that it was "true", it was awful to mix in. I never used to big monitors ever again.

What I'm trying to say is that I understand the room not feeling right. I've been there.

Good luck with the rebuild/test. I hope it's worth it! I'm rooting for you!
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