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Should i consider a sub ? (REW data included)
Old 4th June 2018
  #1
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Should i consider a sub ? (REW data included)

Hello everyone, i've build a studio from scratch in my house, i've worked on it for about a year (including renovating the Studer and other things). I'm at the point where i'm really happy with the acoustic (except the last dip at 121Hz, but i'm working on it).

The room is a complete shell, with different density of absorption behind acoustically transparent fabric, and in the room there is a lot of HH resonator to treat specific problems. Waterfall seems great except 30hz.

On the FR measurements, we can see that the low frequency response from 52hz to 101hz is good, but it linearly goes down 10db from 52hz to 28hz, before collapsing to 0.

i do not care much about frequencies below 30hz, but i do mostly electronic music and i need to really hear what's going on under there, and before i spend 1700 euros on a sub, it would be nice to have opinions. The room is about 23m2, i've done really all i could to take care of the low frequencies. Is it time to get a Sub for this 30hz / 150hz band ? The twin6 sound great but it does lack a bit of punch in the deep lows, and i've read that getting a sub and hi passing the twin could improve the overall sound.

The FR and Waterfall measurements screenshots are with no smoothing.
Attached Thumbnails
Should i consider a sub ? (REW data included)-img_0031.jpg   Should i consider a sub ? (REW data included)-capture-d-ecran-2018-06-04-16.59.42.jpg   Should i consider a sub ? (REW data included)-capture-d-ecran-2018-06-04-17.00.01.jpg  
Old 4th June 2018
  #3
Gear Guru
Woofer

Have you tried the different woofer setting? in your case up down rather than L R.
Best bet is to hire or borrow a sub, some PA ones are really good.
I would be inclined to not remove LF from the Twins.
DD
Old 5th June 2018
  #4
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Jpastor's Avatar
 



Hello Jens, thank you for answering, so are you saying that i should get 2 subs instead of one ? i'm a bit afraid that adding a sub to my room may spoil all the work i've done so far, but when i look at the waterfall it looks like it could be ok.

Do you think 2 subs would also be beneficial for the 120hz dip ?




Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Have you tried the different woofer setting? in your case up down rather than L R.
Best bet is to hire or borrow a sub, some PA ones are really good.
I would be inclined to not remove LF from the Twins.
DD
i've tried every possibility with the speakers, moving them cm by cm. this is really the optimal configuration. it's true that renting a sub would be best before buying one, but in France you can mostly rent big soundsystems, not really studio things.

Do you have any advice on how to keep improving this room ?
Old 5th June 2018
  #5
Gear Guru
Good

Quote:
i've tried every possibility with the speakers, moving them cm by cm. this is really the optimal configuration. it's true that renting a sub would be best before buying one, but in France you can mostly rent big soundsystems, not really studio things.

Do you have any advice on how to keep improving this room ?
It is pretty obvious that you have done a great job. I am just pushing for that extra bit....

I have noticed the LF response of quite a few Focal rooms being noticeably good. So I think there is more available without any extra hardware.

How about turning up the LF control? Afaik the Focal turns over around 150Hz, which should address your below 150 roll off nicely. For a much more nuanced Eq job, consider Dirac Live, it is extraordinarily good.

I am sure you can hire a reasonable sized PA sub or two. e.g. Nexo.

You might post your .mdat measurements. We might see something in there, but can certainly make your Waterfall display your good work much more realistically. e.g. Your Y axis goes down to -90dB...... Wha?

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 5th June 2018 at 03:50 PM..
Old 5th June 2018
  #6
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpastor View Post
Hello Jens, thank you for answering, so are you saying that i should get 2 subs instead of one ? i'm a bit afraid that adding a sub to my room may spoil all the work i've done so far, but when i look at the waterfall it looks like it could be ok.

Do you think 2 subs would also be beneficial for the 120hz dip ?
"Two subs on the floor, positioned close to the mains (in the width dimension, not depth: close to front wall is often the best place in depth dimension) and integrated properly (X-over, alignment, correction etc.) with a DSP is in my opinion the best solution. One reason being that it´s often (almost always) a good thing to be able to cross over fairly high (150 Hz or even higher, assuming you can position the subs in a way so that works) since it´s then possible to get rid of the often otherwise problematic dip due to SBIR related to floor bounce (often showing up at around 100-150 Hz (depending on position of source and receiver)."

What kind of subwoofer do I need?
Old 5th June 2018
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
"Two subs on the floor, positioned close to the mains (in the width dimension, not depth: close to front wall is often the best place in depth dimension) and integrated properly (X-over, alignment, correction etc.) with a DSP is in my opinion the best solution. One reason being that it´s often (almost always) a good thing to be able to cross over fairly high (150 Hz or even higher, assuming you can position the subs in a way so that works) since it´s then possible to get rid of the often otherwise problematic dip due to SBIR related to floor bounce (often showing up at around 100-150 Hz (depending on position of source and receiver)."

What kind of subwoofer do I need?
jens' advice on acoustics is valuable - from a engineering point of view (designing, measuring live systems and mixing in both studios and live) i think it's problematic to use two subs AND run them that high: the higher you go (and depending on the type of sub) the more likely it becomes that you start getting directional information from subs. i find this to be pretty much distracting so i'd start out with just one sub and only use it for the lowest two octaves.

if you get to try both approaches, i'd be very interested in hearing back from you, regardless of the outcome!
Old 5th June 2018
  #8
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
jens' advice on acoustics is valuable - from a engineering point of view (designing, measuring live systems and mixing in both studios and live) i think it's problematic to use two subs AND run them that high: the higher you go (and depending on the type of sub) the more likely it becomes that you start getting directional information from subs. i find this to be pretty much distracting so i'd start out with just one sub and only use it for the lowest two octaves.

if you get to try both approaches, i'd be very interested in hearing back from you, regardless of the outcome!
I´ve done this in many studios and a 140-150Hz X-over is perfectly fine even if single woofer subs close to the floor (assuming mains not too far up above ear level). A higher X-over might be problematic in that scenario, but the speakers we design usually consists of dual 18” subs with the woofers stacked vertically, so the upper woofer is just below the mids and therefore even a 300 Hz X-over is perfectly fine due to the close proximity of the woofer and the rest of the drivers.
The possibility to completely eliminate the dip due to the floor bounce (by crossing over above it) is one of the biggest benefits of adding subs to a monitoring system.
Old 5th June 2018
  #9
Gear Guru
Both

There are Theories to support multiple full range sources, and ones to support Sub plus Sats. I like keeping the sources full range. That is also recommended by a NARAS committee of practicing surround mixers.
There are directional subs now, which creates a whole new scenario.

But back to the 0 option. I had ADAM S3A speakers here in my White Room for several years. Many similarities, including the vertical orientation. The LF control on the ADAM is also 150Hz if I remember correctly. +6dB here, and HF -4dB. This achieved something similar to the Bruel and Kjaer target curve. This was further finely finessed by Dirac Live, which really got hold of a 35Hz mode

DD
Old 5th June 2018
  #10
Gear Nut
 
Jpastor's Avatar
 

Hello guys, i'm coming back to you after fiddling more with the room for a few hours. Dandan, thank you very very much for the LF tip, took me 2 seconds to turn a pot and i had really good improvement, beside my 120hz dip, i've got 50hz to 300hz in a 3db range with no smoothing !

I did about 100 measures tonight, trying to move the HH around, to get to a better result, man it takes time and you really have to be perseverant to get something good, i've been on that room for 6 month now.

I'll see if i can put my hands on the sub, i'll do some testing and get back on this thread about it, it would be even good if it can help the 100hz dip.

This 120hz problem drives me insane, the only place where the HH are efficient is under the console, otherwise, even when i put the resonators at the biggest 120 pressur points, it doesn't do anything, sometimes it evens lower the dip.

i've got a question, if i put two subs, can i get by with two smaller subs, let's say 150W ? or do i have to get the same size as if i were getting a single sub ?

The measurements attached are with no smoothing, i also upload the .mdat if you guys want to check it. the green one is before the +4db increase in the low frequencies on the focals, yellow is after. in the mdat there is also the best i could do with my HH fiddling.
Attached Thumbnails
Should i consider a sub ? (REW data included)-capture-d-ecran-2018-06-05-21.45.56.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: mdat studer 2018 tests 2.4.mdat (9.37 MB, 85 views)
Old 5th June 2018
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
I´ve done this in many studios and a 140-150Hz X-over is perfectly fine even if single woofer subs close to the floor (assuming mains not too far up above ear level). A higher X-over might be problematic in that scenario, but the speakers we design usually consists of dual 18” subs with the woofers stacked vertically, so the upper woofer is just below the mids and therefore even a 300 Hz X-over is perfectly fine due to the close proximity of the woofer and the rest of the drivers.
The possibility to completely eliminate the dip due to the floor bounce (by crossing over above it) is one of the biggest benefits of adding subs to a monitoring system.
dual 18's? possibly not quite what the average gearslut is installing in his home studio?! anyway, i prefer monitors to got at least to around 100hz and do not like a single sub (definitely not in surround setups) to go up to 150hz or even higher for said reason. getting a flat (or however curved) response in a personal studio is one thing, adjusting to mostly different designs in other studios is another thing. but sure it can be done...

(i'm quite fine with my much smaller k+h 810, x-over set at 80hz)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
There are directional subs now, which creates a whole new scenario.
did you get to install and measure any of these? x-over that high? how about the space behind these subs in order for their directional pattern to become effective?
Old 5th June 2018
  #12
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpastor View Post
This 120hz problem drives me insane, the only place where the HH are efficient is under the console, otherwise, even when i put the resonators at the biggest 120 pressur points, it doesn't do anything, sometimes it evens lower the dip.
That would support the suspicion of floor related SBIR as mentioned ...
Old 5th June 2018
  #13
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
dual 18's? possibly not quite what the average gearslut is installing in his home studio?! anyway, i prefer monitors to got at least to around 100hz and do not like a single sub (definitely not in surround setups) to go up to 150hz or even higher for said reason. getting a flat (or however curved) response in a personal studio is one thing, adjusting to mostly different designs in other studios is another thing. but sure it can be done...

(i'm quite fine with my much smaller k+h 810, x-over set at 80hz)
Again, one of the main resons for adding subs is to be able to get rid of the so often problematic dip due to floor related SBIR and this often occurs at around 120-140 Hz, so x-over at or above this range is beneficial, thus the need for dual subs.
Old 5th June 2018
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Again, one of the main resons for adding subs is to be able to get rid of the so often problematic dip due to floor related SBIR and this often occurs at around 120-140 Hz, so x-over at or above this range is beneficial, thus the need for dual subs.
but that's not necessarily the priority from an engineer's point of view: i do not want my single sub to take care of acoustical design flaws in the first place but to enable me to hear what i cannot get from the mains! and i do not want my soundstage to almost collapse when mixing without a sub! i rather spend money on external dsp than on another sub as i consider phase alignment and the option to correct smaller eq response issues more valuable than eating up real estate by multiple (large) subs with a high crossover frequency...

p.s. i do sometimes choose different (aka higher) x-over frequencies on my dsp when mixing different genre of music, although quite rarely: if so, it's due to the spectral content of the music, to emulate the behaviour of a specific playback system or for sheer volume!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 5th June 2018 at 11:47 PM.. Reason: p.s. added
Old 6th June 2018
  #15
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
but that's not necessarily the priority from an engineer's point of view: i do not want my single sub to take care of acoustical design flaws in the first place but to enable me to hear what i cannot get from the mains! and i do not want my soundstage to almost collapse when mixing without a sub! i rather spend money on external dsp than on another sub as i consider phase alignment and the option to correct smaller eq response issues more valuable than eating up real estate by multiple (large) subs with a high crossover frequency...

p.s. i do sometimes choose different (aka higher) x-over frequencies on my dsp when mixing different genre of music, although quite rarely: if so, it's due to the spectral content of the music, to emulate the behaviour of a specific playback system or for sheer volume!
Floor related SBIR is not necessarily a "design flaw", it´s just something that will occur if using only mains without subs (or with sub(s) but crossed over below this frequency range), no matter how good the room is, since the problem is related to the floor.

There’s very little you can do to prevent this dip, and this is why I strongly recommend two subs and x-over above the first dip caused by floor related SBIR. If using only mains (or mains with subs but crossed over below this first cancellation frequency due to floor SBIR); there’s no DSP in the world that will fix this issue in a satisfying way since there´s still destructive interference occurring, no matter how much you try to boost the frequency of cancellation. You´ll just add decay and distortion trying to boost this null.
Old 6th June 2018
  #16
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i did not pretend that one can achieve the same results using a single sub plus dsp vs two subs. i was just mentioning what i'm exoecting a sub to do and my dislike of a certain acoustic aesthetic.

i'm weighting in than as an artist/engineer, i can mostly cope with less than perfect eq response but less with with previously mentioned issues!

(another reason for not using higher x-overs is that this would mostly prevent the use of an augspurger cardioid bass array in a studio - or at least make it way less efficient)

i assume we will never agree on these topics/priorities...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 6th June 2018 at 12:49 AM.. Reason: edited
Old 6th June 2018
  #17
Gear Guru
Free Lunch

Quote:
Dandan, thank you very very much for the LF tip, took me 2 seconds to turn a pot and i had really good improvement, beside my 120hz dip, i've got 50hz to 300hz in a 3db range with no smoothing !
That is gratifying, particularly given the cost, do not be afraid to turn it up full.

Unfortunately the SBIR issue can be a combination. Distance from the Front Wall, and distance from the Floor and more..... Separating the LF and placing it physically on the floor and IN the Front Wall is a very attractive way to address both. If one is predominant, e.g. the floor, then Subs/Floor and crossover should work. But there is also the Back Wall, and cheap shallow DIY active subs back there..... is another way to go. There are amazing speakers with a 10" on the floor, a frame, then the rest. My old monitors, Celestion Ditton 66. OLD, have two 12's close to the floor, albeit one is an ABR. But these thing are from a starting position, adding something to fix is different. I am very surprised at the roll off in your room, particularly with those Focals. I suspect that with more sophisticated Eq, you might well get that subby thump which we all love, 30Hz. At reasonable volumes. Demo Dirac Live.
You are right regarding location and 100's of sweeps. Pink Noise and Spectrum Analyser can speed that up a lot. Zoom in, move, look. Quickly rule out the No Fly zones. Then back to sweeps when zeroing in.

Having had ADAM S3A, the Celestions, tried PMC iB1s, I finally settled on Neumann KH310, with DL. Clean fast 30Hz. Soft Dome Midrange and Tweeter. PMC and ATC seem to agree on the latter. My room is smallish and definitely inadequately treated. But if a client thinks there is not enough bass, I say, try the couch at the back. Nobody lasts long there.... I think your room and speaker are perfectly workable. I would focus on the shape and slopes of the response. The Bruel and Kjaer curve still works. Same as it ever was.
DD

Last edited by DanDan; 6th June 2018 at 03:58 PM..
Old 6th June 2018
  #18
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i did not pretend that one can achieve the same results using a single sub plus dsp vs two subs. i was just mentioning what i'm exoecting a sub to do and my dislike of a certain acoustic aesthetic.

i'm weighting in than as an artist/engineer, i can mostly cope with less than perfect eq response but less with with previously mentioned issues!

(another reason for not using higher x-overs is that this would mostly prevent the use of an augspurger cardioid bass array in a studio - or at least make it way less efficient)

i assume we will never agree on these topics/priorities...
There’s a difference between “less than perfect eq response” and what´s typical due to the floor bounce:

"The median notch depth is 14.2dB, but 30dB notches are not un-common (Fig. 28)."

https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...virta_anet.pdf


And I still say it´s not an issue to cross over at 140-150 Hz, even if single woofer sub with woofer close to floor. I´ve used this setup in a lot of studios and my clients are often very picky, so if there was a problem with this type of setup, most of them would have complained instantly, but so far; everyone is very happy with the results.
Old 7th June 2018
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
And I still say it´s not an issue to cross over at 140-150 Hz, even if single woofer sub with woofer close to floor. I´ve used this setup in a lot of studios and my clients are often very picky, so if there was a problem with this type of setup, most of them would have complained instantly, but so far; everyone is very happy with the results.
With subwoofers going up to what i consider very high, the highest frequencies coming from your subwoofer(s) can easily be 10-20 ms ahead of the lowest frequencies - now at what frequency to you wanna align?!

i just recently sat in a studio (that had a sub going up to 250hz, so not mine and speakers not aligned by me!) with a composer: within seconds of the playback of an orchestra recording that i did (using mostly directional mics, including the main pair), he mentioned that the celli were coming from the wrong position in the stereo image; switching off the sub and all good again - so much on 'picky' clients and directional information coming from subs with a high crossover...

i prefer subs to reproduce max. the lowest two ocataves - feel free to use other approaches; i cannot recommend it (other than trying to emulate the behaviour of specific loudspeaker design used in live sound some 25 years ago)

Last edited by Northward; 7th June 2018 at 12:33 PM.. Reason: Let's keep it civil
Old 7th June 2018
  #20
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
With subwoofers going up to what i consider very high, the highest frequencies coming from your subwoofer(s) can easily be 10-20 ms ahead of the lowest frequencies - now at what frequency to you wanna align?!

i just recently sat in a studio (that had a sub going up to 250hz, so not mine and speakers not aligned by me!) with a composer: within seconds of the playback of an orchestra recording that i did (using mostly directional mics, including the main pair), he mentioned that the celli were coming from the wrong position in the stereo image; switching off the sub and all good again - so much on 'picky' clients and directional information coming from subs with a high crossover...

i prefer subs to reproduce max. the lowest two ocataves - feel free to use other approaches; i cannot recommend it (other than trying to emulate the behaviour of specific loudspeaker design used in live sound some 25 years ago)
That has never happened to me but maybe it´s because I use sealed subs. Alignment has never been an issue.
Old 7th June 2018
  #21
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But even if not sealed, it´s still obviously not a problem or this wouldn’t work:

https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...brochure_0.pdf
Old 7th June 2018
  #22
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What you a refering to (up to 20ms delay on lowest freqs) is called group delay and it is caused by the natural low frequency rolloff of any speaker (highpass behaviour)

You can only compensate for it with FIR filters, which will naturally introduce quite an amount of latency.

Any other method will result in other problems such as dips in the crossover range etc..

With Jens approach - sealed dual 18" + linkwitz transform - group delay will only start to occur below frequencies that are relevant to music, so it's a non-issue
Old 7th June 2018
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post

As a side note; I find the second part of your first sentence a tad offensive.
it is/was - i'll change that...

(i found your continuous refusal to respond on specific arguments in previous posts somewhat disappointing - moving targets)

let's agree that we disagree on some topics and get the rooms fixed! with lower x-overs though... :-)
Old 7th June 2018
  #24
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
it is/was - i'll change that...

(i found your continuous refusal to respond on specific arguments in previous posts somewhat disappointing - moving targets)

let's agree that we disagree on some topics and get the rooms fixed! with lower x-overs though... :-)
So, based on your reasoning; what’s your comment on the Genelec 1236?

X-over from dual 18" (ported) to mids is at 400 Hz ...
Old 7th June 2018
  #25
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Jpastor's Avatar
 

hey guys, i really appreciate your discussion on this, very informative. at the moment i'm fixing an issue with my console, i'll definitely get subs + dsp, but it's not a super cheap investment, so i'll probably try to rent two low quality subs to see if i get any kind of improvements on the 30/50 band and the 120 dip at the same time. For now i'll stop making a million HH for this dip because it has proven to be almost non effective on that frequency.

Out of curiosity, is there any studio built with absorption in the ground ? to no get this inteference from the floor ?
Old 7th June 2018
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
So, based on your reasoning; what’s your comment on the Genelec 1236?
X-over from dual 18" (ported) to mids is at 400 Hz ...
i didn' t get a chance to hear any larger system from genelec than the 1038 so far. no doubt that many of their even larger and/or newer systems are equally or even more impressive, but i don't want to comment on a system that i never heard/measured/worked on (or that looks somewhat similar to systems that i did not like).

as many others, i have some preferences: some based on experience, some on functional aspects, some purely on personal taste.

i prefer actively driven 2-way systems with external (single) sub (if the room allows for), with the sub not going any higher than 80hz. and i like horn loaded systems, coax too... (i happen to have tad and tannoy, k+h, small genelecs and fostex)

when it comes to room acoustics, i'm stuck with lede design - not that all these rooms (by design) are really that good, but that's how i spent far the most time mixing.


ups, gotta do some live mixing - c u next time around!



(got a few more minutes) - speaking of live mixing,
from here stem some other preferences for either 1-10-15 or 2-12-18 systems (in diameter for hi-mid-low) and my dislike of systems with equal amount of surface, but gained from woofers with smaller speakers.

(i also much better like point source systems than line arrays, at least for semi-acoustic/classical music. and i prefer a dedicated center speaker over phantom center and hence lCr systems with a capital C!)

don't wanna derail this thread any further, but some of these preferences on live sound systems 'spill over' to my view on studio monitors - and allow for a somewhat more informed choice on setups for the studio that have a high potential of translating well to the live sound world; something i find quite usefull and i'm sure that can be valuable to many musicians too, especially at the current state of our industry.

hope i could explain that - looking at things from the live side - using subs at the edge or above the frequency range of what i consider to be the 'sub' range is somewhat unusual (but sure can yield good results).

sorry again for the aggressive comment before.

cheers,

didier

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 7th June 2018 at 01:57 PM.. Reason: edited
Old 7th June 2018
  #27
Gear Guru
Recommendations

Quote:
For now i'll stop making a million HH for this dip because it has proven to be almost non effective on that frequency.

Out of curiosity, is there any studio built with absorption in the ground ? to no get this inteference from the floor ?
When treatment doesn't have any effect, one has to question the diagnosis. Is it the floor which is causing this dip?
I have seen GS claim quite good improvements in the floor dip using absorption, in the form of thick carpet with underlay. Blocking is another approach, or a combination of blocking and absorption. Some console manufacturers provided an otherwise unnecessary back all the way to the floor to block.

IMO when a sub is physically as coincident as possible with the rest of the speakers, I call that a full range speaker system.

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 7th June 2018 at 04:13 PM..
Old 7th June 2018
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
What you a refering to (up to 20ms delay on lowest freqs) is called group delay and it is caused by the natural low frequency rolloff of any speaker (highpass behaviour)

You can only compensate for it with FIR filters, which will naturally introduce quite an amount of latency.

Any other method will result in other problems such as dips in the crossover range etc..

With Jens approach - sealed dual 18" + linkwitz transform - group delay will only start to occur below frequencies that are relevant to music, so it's a non-issue
true group delay occurs with any system other than a single broadband speaker, but i was refering to the effect that when measuring and trying to align a sub, it's only possible to align (properly) for one frequency and for one position: frequencies below and a above the chosen frequency (all emitted by the sub) cannot be aligned at the same time.

in the studio, i assume we mostly want to align sub(s) to optimum phase coherency between sub(s) and the mains at the listening position - while in live sound, this choice becomes less obvious as the listening position extends to a large area and to the back of the room; not always an easy choice...
Old 7th June 2018
  #29
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i prefer actively driven 2-way systems with external (single) sub (if the room allows for), with the sub not going any higher than 80hz.
You should try two subs some time, even if still crossing over low:

Add a sub instead of even more bass trapping to even out freq response?
Old 7th June 2018
  #30
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i do sometimes... - hope you got to read the second part of my previous post added later and an additional post addressed to someone else): without mentioning it, it also explains that - although i know and appreciate what adding additional subs can do in terms of the overall eq response of a system - i mostly dislike the consequences in the phase domain.

ciao and over,

dd
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