The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room? Studio Monitors
Old 26th April 2018
  #1
Gear Head
 

Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?

Just finished a second round of treatment addressing the wall to ceiling corners. Everything is 4” of OC703 or Eco core except for left and right reflection panels which is 2” and front wall/Windows coverings which is 1” oc705 density material and 1” of eco core hidden behind. Room is roughly 12.66 ft long, 9.66 ft wide, and 7.66 ft high. Speakers are HS7s, there’s no sub. I moved them around a few spots and this seems to be the best I can address the very nasty bass nulls. I picked up sonar works and it seems to tighten things up. Unfortunately I’m having an issue getting my interface to record an input non asio through windows sound which is making a post sonarworks rew measurement impossible. I’m no acoustics expert so thoughts, observations, or ideas on the next steps are welcome. Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-c8e45ccf-70dc-402c-b51c-b54f76c039c8.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-d606e082-af90-4471-8059-a0895b92e65f.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-c0cbd059-8c4a-4656-83fd-326234e66383.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-913f2d36-17e6-4c8d-9fdc-b45154743061.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-45ee8c79-a493-4c3d-afda-4b64097245f2.jpeg  

Old 26th April 2018
  #2
Gear Nut
 
JR Mastering's Avatar
 

My buddy has HS7s, no sub. True story, after hearing my setup with a sub, he went straight to guitar center and bought the matching sub. I'm talking after he left my studio he stopped there on the way home. He QUICKLY realized why he couldn't mix or mastering anything properly below 100hz, and I could.

He bought the matching yamaha sub. I like, and recommend, the KRK sub.

Good luck with your studio, so far it looks great!

I wish you the very best with your music!
Old 26th April 2018
  #3
Gear Head
 

Do you think I could get away with a sub in this size room without adding more problems than solved? I’ve never really considered it. Frequency response is still a nightmare sub 110 after the latest treament but it’s effect on decay surprised me. No huge issues until 60 hz and below. I don’t take 20-60 hz too seriously because it’s not like I’m realistically ever going to treat that range in this room. Maybe a sub and roll bass off in a way that tames 60 hz and below?
Old 26th April 2018
  #4
Gear Head
 

I’m going to do some experimenting. After doing some research I think the ginormous bass null maybe more an SBIR problem than a mode problem. The problem area is wide and not correlating much with decay and an article pointed this could be a sign of SBIR. I’m going to start by sticking the HS7s near the front wall. An article advised a distance no less than the diameter of the rear port. Hopefully the rear port doesn’t create havok. Although theres a window and a lot of trapping so maybe it’ll work out. I know there’s a EQ adjustment on the back of HS7s for placing near a wall.
Old 26th April 2018
  #5
Gear Head
 

After much moving around I’m finding the following. On the waterfall above the speakers are in the sweet spot for the atrocious 80 hz null. The 80 hz null is front to back. The best I can get it. For the 100 hz spot the null improves if I move them closer together but the desk and monitors prevents this. Maybe this could be an argument for a small sub as I can move the sub around and everything under 100 hz won’t be married to the mains?
Old 26th April 2018
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Are you using REW for the graph? If so I've found the room simulator in there valuable for speaker positioning.
Old 26th April 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Add a sub instead of even more bass trapping to even out freq response?

Monitors should be closer to wall too... SBIR problems as is
Old 27th April 2018
  #8
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Add a sub instead of even more bass trapping to even out freq response?

Monitors should be closer to wall too... SBIR problems as is
I’ve read that’s the case in many a room. I tried five inches from back of speaker first. Unfortunately, when I tried that in this room it improved a few bass nulls a bit, made another bass null far far worse, and caused utter havok in the mid range. Close to wall caused exaggerated modes. I kept backing it off bit by bit and measuring. Front of speaker 26-28” from front wall appears to be the sweet spot after many measurements. I’m going to flip my desk vertically and only hook up one computer monitor to enable me to get the HS7s a lot closer together to see what I can get there.
Old 27th April 2018
  #9
Gear Head
 

Btw... according to some online calculator thingamajigger I came across for speaker placement (who knows how accurate it is) 24” from front wall is a theoretical flat bass response point so that seems to agree a bit with my measurements.
Old 27th April 2018
  #10
Gear Head
 

My desk is literally just a few hairs too wide! *FACEPALM* bringing them in a couple of inches and then pushing them back a few inches solved the problem. Amazing how different those few inches made lmao.... this trade is redic ... new desk I guess *sigh*
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-desk.jpg  
Old 27th April 2018
  #11
Lives for gear
I meant to post this earlier, apparently I never hit the post button. The addition of a sub does give you the option of getting an optimum main speaker placement in the room without worrying too much about what that main placement does below 100hz. Then, without tinkering with your mains, you can try to sort out the lows with a sub. But you may need to get pressure based treatment for the issues below 100. I don’t see that your panels seem thick enough to tame the bottom octave.
But your waterfall above the null is very even and looks unusually good for a small room. I say that with the caveat that I am not an acoustics expert. You seem to have solved a lot of the problems most people think they can “learn” to work around (quotation marks because you can’t learn anything about audio you can’t hear).
Old 27th April 2018
  #12
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
I meant to post this earlier, apparently I never hit the post button. The addition of a sub does give you the option of getting an optimum main speaker placement in the room without worrying too much about what that main placement does below 100hz. Then, without tinkering with your mains, you can try to sort out the lows with a sub. But you may need to get pressure based treatment for the issues below 100. I don’t see that your panels seem thick enough to tame the bottom octave.
But your waterfall above the null is very even and looks unusually good for a small room. I say that with the caveat that I am not an acoustics expert. You seem to have solved a lot of the problems most people think they can “learn” to work around (quotation marks because you can’t learn anything about audio you can’t hear).
Thanks Man! Yeah, I was a bit surprised over everything out of a subs range myself. From the looks of it, it’s new desk with not enough room for both monitors for better lows or experiment with an 8” sub. I think you’re right and I should experiment with an 8” sub first. It’d be an educational experience at least.
Old 27th April 2018
  #13
Gear Head
 

And I’ll quickly add the success above 120 wasn’t me it was just following the advice of people like Ethan Winer and to trap an insane amount of corners. Although everything over 5k is crazy dead but “tiny room”. I am wondering if GIKs SCOTUS would help but man... tuned membranes = $$$$ lol
Old 27th April 2018
  #14
Lives for gear
I agree. I have a similar room with everything in order except that very low bump in the time axis of the waterfall. The room is very reliable and translates well, but I’m saving and scheming towards adding tuned membrane traps. GIK has advised that it would take at least six membrane traps to dry up 30hz. That’s a very hefty investment. I don’t absolutely need to do that, since the room is producing good results, but I want to complete the treatment of the room.
Old 27th April 2018
  #15
Gear Head
 

I’ve been doing some interesting research. I’m very uneducated on SBIR so I’ve been studying and actually came across a subwoofer tactic that may well be effective in smaller room. The experiment I’m thinking about doing is to introduce a subwoofer and crossover the mains. I will place the subwoofer near a side wall. According to a calculator near a wall should bring the SBIR out of subwoofer range.
Old 27th April 2018
  #16
Gear Head
 

I’ll add that I’m reading treatment will likely not be effective on SBIR nulls so I might not be able to address those with tuned membranes.
Old 27th April 2018
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

2 subs is better than one if you can swing it
Old 27th April 2018
  #18
Lives for gear
I’ve read a bit about subwoofer and DOUBLE subwoofer tricks to flatten the low end. Frankly, it is beyond my feeble math and reading comprehension skills to work in that direction. I also don’t get why any nulls and peaks would be beyond the reach of practical treatment, and, in that respect, SBIR is part of what I don’t understand.
Old 27th April 2018
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
I’ve read a bit about subwoofer and DOUBLE subwoofer tricks to flatten the low end. Frankly, it is beyond my feeble math and reading comprehension skills to work in that direction. I also don’t get why any nulls and peaks would be beyond the reach of practical treatment, and, in that respect, SBIR is part of what I don’t understand.
Not really any math, its just positioning the subs. RTA with pink noise helps speed it up. Treatment works, but it needs to be pressure based and positioned correctly. SBIR is sound wrapping around the back of the monitor and bouncing back, but you also are dealing with desk reflections cause of your GIANT desk. You need a cloud, and proper desk.
Old 27th April 2018
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Just saw your cloud. Probably need a much bigger one and rigid backed and angled to the rear wall treatment
Old 28th April 2018
  #21
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Not really any math, its just positioning the subs. RTA with pink noise helps speed it up. Treatment works, but it needs to be pressure based and positioned correctly. SBIR is sound wrapping around the back of the monitor and bouncing back, but you also are dealing with desk reflections cause of your GIANT desk. You need a cloud, and proper desk.
My monitors are placed so there’s no direct desk reflections from primary listening point. I do have to roll my chair back a bit when critically listening. I always check the listening point with a mirror on the desk and also there’s no major desk reflections showing up on my measurements. The SBIR mains/sub concept I read is pretty basic. One pulls their mains far enough out from the walls that the SBIR null is under where the planned crossover is frequency wise. Then one places the subwoofer close enough to the walls so the SBIR null is higher than the subwoofers frequency response. Crossover and Voila! No SBIR null. As for the cloud, it can certainly be thicker. So could every panel in the entire room. I just chose to maximize making as many 4” panels as I could over depth per a lot of the experts advice. I’m curious as to what angling the cloud toward the back wall would do?
Old 28th April 2018
  #22
Gear Head
 

Looking through some stuff maybe there is some reflection going on with the desk. I had desk reflection on an earlier setup that was horrid but maybe some of those dips are desk reflective. Just used to worse. I’ll check up on that next after the sub. Desk is 40” wide though. I wouldn’t call that small but I’d say it’s not giant. Nice size for a keyboard... hmmm
Old 29th April 2018
  #23
Gear Head
 

Okay, thanks. Led to more research. Desk reflections.I have a leftover 1” batt of eco core. I think I’ll cut in half long ways and make a 2” panel that I can place on the desk when needed. Then I can buy a cheap keyboard and mouse slide out tray to mount under the desk. As I said earlier I need to slide my chair back a bit to be in the sweet spot so that tray will actually help back me up a bit.
Old 29th April 2018
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyMele View Post
My monitors are placed so there’s no direct desk reflections from primary listening point. I do have to roll my chair back a bit when critically listening. I always check the listening point with a mirror on the desk and also there’s no major desk reflections showing up on my measurements. The SBIR mains/sub concept I read is pretty basic. One pulls their mains far enough out from the walls that the SBIR null is under where the planned crossover is frequency wise. Then one places the subwoofer close enough to the walls so the SBIR null is higher than the subwoofers frequency response. Crossover and Voila! No SBIR null. As for the cloud, it can certainly be thicker. So could every panel in the entire room. I just chose to maximize making as many 4” panels as I could over depth per a lot of the experts advice. I’m curious as to what angling the cloud toward the back wall would do?
The best desk is no desk, from there it should be as small as possible and angled to direct reflections away from the listening position. I would still put the speakers as close to the front wall as possible. Maybe mount your tv's on the wall between the speakers and use a keyboard stand. If not an angled hard backed cloud will absorb HF reflections from the desk and redirect mid/lf reflections to rear wall absorbtion. Also, the mirror isnt always that reliable.
Old 29th April 2018
  #25
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
The best desk is no desk, from there it should be as small as possible and angled to direct reflections away from the listening position. I would still put the speakers as close to the front wall as possible. Maybe mount your tv's on the wall between the speakers and use a keyboard stand. If not an angled hard backed cloud will absorb HF reflections from the desk and redirect mid/lf reflections to rear wall absorbtion. Also, the mirror isnt always that reliable.
Thanks! From what I’m reading if I go subless the monitors near the wall would be the best solution. It’d mess with low mids, especially since I have rear ports and can’t go against the wall, but it wouldn’t be as extreme as having them pulled out and killing lows. If I go sub then SBIR would mostly be eliminated by pulling the mains out to put the mains SBIR in sub range and putting the sub close to put the subs SBIR out of sub range. After running REWs room simulator, as previously suggested by someone, it suggests putting the sub near the front corner trap, near both walls, is the best modal placement anyways. Of course, the room isn’t ideal for a sub so its a trade off. Angling desk would mean a new desk. I found an interesting old post on here with treated desktop surface with OC703 vs bare floor measurements. It seems bare floor actually hurt lows compared to a desk but not as bad as a desk hurts mids and highs. The treated desk looks to solve high mids and highs, low mids still comb a bit. I think that might be an option to try out. Another trade off. Thanks!
Old 29th April 2018
  #26
Gear Head
 

To sum up mentality right now, listening to Sonarworks really suggests it’s doing a great job cleaning up that comb filtering. Low mids are a bit of a concern. That SBIR is a nightmare and Sonarworks is certainly never going to handle that, so I think I should focus on getting rid of that and make sure to do it in a way as not to introduce it in the midrange. I don’t think, from what I’m reading, that EQ would have any effect on SBIR and certainly would lose effectiveness if I made it even worse. So a sub to eliminate SBIR is priority. I’ll certainly still have nulls and resonance down there but hopefully not that 1/4+ octave nightmare that’s present.
Old 29th April 2018
  #27
Gear Head
 

Sorry for the long rants lol,I’m having lots of thoughts and advice is greatly appreciated to get my head in the right direction so I’ll add if I add a sub I think setting Sonarworks to do some bass roll off might help combat “sub in small room effect” and help even out response.
Old 29th April 2018
  #28
Gear Head
 

Another idea could be shoving the desk against the front wall. Having the video monitors on the edge and having the mains flush with the edge. Then picking up one of those cheap, small, and low laptop desks that angle to place mouse and keyboard on. Thoughts? First I’m going to address this SBIR though.
Old 29th April 2018
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyMele View Post
Another idea could be shoving the desk against the front wall. Having the video monitors on the edge and having the mains flush with the edge. Then picking up one of those cheap, small, and low laptop desks that angle to place mouse and keyboard on. Thoughts? First I’m going to address this SBIR though.
Its worth trying. I think the sub + sonarworks will make a pretty good difference
Old 30th April 2018
  #30
Gear Head
 

I picked up an HS8S sub. Just hooked it up. I’m super stoked to report that the very first placement indeed eliminated SBIR nulls and initial reports are showing the main bass nulls are much narrower and far shallower. The worst offender is looking to be about -11 dB which is a drastic improvement. Of course bass decay is now back big time, but that’s of course expected. At least I can hear. I’ll post some measurements once I get exact placement situated tommorow.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump