The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room? Studio Monitors
Old 18th May 2018
  #61
Gear Head
 

All I can say after a few songs is Holy ****e! That 90 hz null must’ve got murdered! I feel like I’m in a completely different room. Finally getting bass that’s smacking me right in the chest.
Old 18th May 2018
  #62
Gear Head
 

Oh, I know there’s no way it dipped that low. I was just going to deal with 50 hz and below for the time being. I don’t work with any crazy super low bass heavy music so I should be able work around that. I can definitely hear the long decay at 55hz and below.
Old 18th May 2018
  #63
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
What kind of mineral wool? Rigid or fluffy?
Fluffy. It’s Owens Corning Thermofiber Fire and Sound Guard.When I looked up the coefficients it was almost mirror image to Roxul Safe N Sound. So I’d assume it’s about the same product. As for the bump I believe that’s primarily an axial mode at 45 hz, as 90 and 360 are also null areas. 180s bump ain’t that bad so those ceiling traps must have addressed it a bit. I’m hoping those nulls are brought into an acceptable range. Listening suggests they are. After that I look at whatever the 680 null.
Old 18th May 2018
  #64
Gear Head
 

Alrighty, so here's after playing with computer monitor placement and treatment on rear wall. First pic is left channel before and after and second pic is right channel before and after. So we'll start with the one bad thing....

-After rear wall treatment the 360 null got worse. Especially when testing the right speaker. I'll add that's a very particular null. Near inches make it worse. If I move speakers back it gets slightly worse and if I move speakers forward it get slightly worse. Listening position is also finicky. Even tweaks to the sub effect slightly. I can do things to bring it up a couple of db but in the grand scheme it's not worth it. The only way I've found to get rid of it is if I place speakers super close to the front wall it but then I gain massive multiple nulls in mid range elsewhere, in fact most of the midrange drops down quite a bit, and the 90 hz null gets much deeper. Not worth it. I just cant get rid of it. For now I'll just jot it down and recognize its there because I'd like to get back to working on mixing.

Now the good stuff. Overall, there's no doubt sonar works will bring everything well within a 10db range except for that one damn stubborn null! Rear wall treatment brought some big changes.

1.) Marked improvement when testing the right speaker (second image) at the 90 hz null. Big change! Also minor changes across the spectrum. Most for the better. Things definitely flattened out.

2.) You'll notice 500 hz null receded. That was moving the computer monitors. Big improvement!

3.) The marked improvement at the 670 null was also brought on by treating the rear wall.

4.) The subwoofer behaves completely differently with treatment. Before, turning the gain on the sub higher just increased the nulls and did absolutely no good. Now , I got better results turning it up a bit to flatten things out and it did not effect the nulls. It made the mode at 45 a bit more over-pronounced but I'm hoping I can iron that out in sonarworks as the rest of the low range is greatly flattened.


I think the only other thing I'm going to do in the near is get something like Kraft paper and cover the front bass traps and the one rear sidewall trap. Everything over 7k is super dead. Actually the room is pretty damn dead, but I think Kraft paper may give the room super even decay response down to about 50 hz now. The rear wall treatment actually brought 50-55hz decay times in line. Well.... that's that.
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-left.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-right.jpg  
Old 18th May 2018
  #65
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Your speakers need to be up against the front wall. Touching. Youre getting sbir/desk reflections i think. Can you take a pic of front wall/desk/monitors/speakers? Also, try elevating your sub on a stack of bricks. Like 30" or so
Old 19th May 2018
  #66
Gear Head
 

360 null, 500 null, AND 680 null is all computer monitors! I move the monitors around, they all respond. One gets alot better, another gets alot worse. Time to experiment.
Old 19th May 2018
  #67
Gear Head
 

Part of this equation begs a question. I have my tweeters pointed directly at my microphone at listening position. At what point at angling them less does it effect stereo image? Is it okay to point them at the distance my ears are apart?
Old 19th May 2018
  #68
Gear Head
 

Yup, monitors... this is getting maddening.... almost there.... almost to a 10 db range lmao.... here's the left speaker just by slightly adjusting the angles and position of the computer monitors and studio monitors... Closing in! It's touchy... the good thing is listening position slightly forward and backward isn't really making much of a difference so i dont have to worry about that.
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-frequency-response.jpg  
Old 20th May 2018
  #69
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

fun, aint it! Can you wall mount your display monitors? The acoustical axis should point to a spot like 4-6" behind your head. The imaginary line should just graze your ears.
Old 20th May 2018
  #70
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Dude, lookin good actually. Youre almost +/-5db now. Average is about 65db so 70 is +5 and 60 is -5. 10db from highest peak to lowest dip is good. Sort out the reflections from the monitor and youre good. I would do like a -2db cut on the highs. You dont want a perfectly flat response. It should gradually tilt from low to high.
Old 20th May 2018
  #71
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Dude, lookin good actually. Youre almost +/-5db now. Average is about 65db so 70 is +5 and 60 is -5. 10db from highest peak to lowest dip is good. Sort out the reflections from the monitor and youre good. I would do like a -2db cut on the highs. You dont want a perfectly flat response. It should gradually tilt from low to high.
Thanks! Wait until you see this... the placement shocked the hell out of me. So the question is do this and make the 360 null worse and say to hell with it?.... Because holy flat response! Sonarworks has a tilt feature that's pretty much exactly what you speak of. Its going to be interesting to see how Sonarworks irons this out. I already know the last time it only improved that 360 but like 2 db. I think its almost time to call it a day.
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-stereo.jpg  
Old 20th May 2018
  #72
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

The one you posted on post 67 looks best to me. Get back to that and see what sonarworks can do
Old 20th May 2018
  #73
Gear Head
 

I'm at nightime volume though. So we'll see tomorrow when I turn up a bit. I'd say that 45 peak doesnt like to come down at lower volume lol
Old 20th May 2018
  #74
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
The one you posted on post 67 looks best to me. Get back to that and see what sonarworks can do
Actually in a twist of the strange.... you were correct. Soeaker on stands near wall didn’t work. Speakers on Desk nearwall... everything’s generally plus or minus 5db... yup, it’s working and if I’m a betting man Sonarworks will have an easier time with near the wall. Must be the 3 inches of treatment. It reintroduces a bit of decay, but I can certainly afford that. This rooms too dead. It actually attacks the 45 hz decay though. Stacking my extra panel on the front wall over window also also reduces 45 hz decay into acceptable range, I think it was about 250ms at 35db, and chops off a few dB. On the desk and sacrificing a computer monitor also bring my studio monitor placement from too wide and back into an equilateral triangle... I may be buying mopads and angling them up a bit *sigh*
Old 21st May 2018
  #75
Gear Head
 

Where there's a will, there's a way. Game, set, match! Those speakers really wanted to come in further. Just through the spare panel on top of the desk to further attenuate reflections. I'm going to buy a higher chair now lmao.... I'm finishing here. Some damn good results! Thanks! After I pick up some Mopads or something, I'll do one more simple post of Sonarworks results tomorrow and quit beating your ears. Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-flat.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-33156222_10216556661339476_1318110057094709248_n.jpg  
Old 22nd May 2018
  #76
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Lookin real good! Great job dude! Im excited to see how much further sonar works takes you. Instead of mopads check out sorbothane hemispheres. You need to match your speakers weight to the hemisphere size, but they work really well. Theyre like $20 on amazon
Old 24th May 2018
  #77
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Lookin real good! Great job dude! Im excited to see how much further sonar works takes you. Instead of mopads check out sorbothane hemispheres. You need to match your speakers weight to the hemisphere size, but they work really well. Theyre like $20 on amazon
After much futzing around I was able to get both my computer monitors back in the mix. I put them above and behind the speakers. I tried multiple spots where I was around a 5 db range and tried them with Sonarworks and came to an interesting find. When I got around a 5 db range and used Sonarworks, REW measurements were telling me Sonar works was making a few areas much worse. It was boosting too much. So I set Sonarworks to only cut and do no boosts. Voila! It worked but obviously I really dont need to use it very often. Maybe only when I'm doing a master. I doubt I'll need Sonarworks mixing. I guess it's evidence once you get inside a certain range EQ really isn't needed... maybe in the low end. All finished... sigh... lol... Here's a few pics of each channel. Sonarworks vs no Sonarworks.
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-left.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-right.jpg  
Old 25th May 2018
  #78
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Lookin so good! Ive always heard that room correction didnt do much in a well treated room, but ive never heard of it making things worse. Thats crazy. How do the waterfall and etc graphs look?
Old 27th May 2018
  #79
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Lookin so good! Ive always heard that room correction didnt do much in a well treated room, but ive never heard of it making things worse. Thats crazy. How do the waterfall and etc graphs look?
Not at home right now but the waterfalls easy to remember. There’s the 45 hz ring. If memory serves me right it’s around 250 ms at 35 dB. The rear wall treatment killed all other rings. Not one of them outside of 45. Room is very deadened. Starts at around 120 ms at 50 hz and is 80 ms at 20 hz. The funny thing is there’s carpet in the rear half of the room. I removed it thinking it might even out the high decay. I quickly put it back in place. It introduced a extremely audible slap echo that had a nasty “tube tunnel” like sound. Obvious sign the rooms approaching semi-anechoic territory lol. I actually covered more of the rear. No noticeable slaps in the front half other than a very quick faint barely audible “metallic” ring off of exposed drywall. I’ve been practicing mixing. At first I was concerned. I lost all bearing on how much reverb too apply. I’m quickly adjusting though. Other than that I just need to get used to low mids being right in my face now. Really noticeable on guitar tracks. I was used to them sounding bright and thin. Now they have some real punch and warmth.
Old 27th May 2018
  #80
Gear Head
 

Another kudos to the tons of treatment is I no longer have to solo the top and bottom snare mics much. I put them on different channels of course. I can tell exactly what’s going on on with both trackss instead of them mostly blending into each other. Big difference!
Old 7th June 2018
  #81
Gear Head
 

Update: Sonarworks just came out with an update claiming they completely revamped the calibration process and it was dramatically improved. They were'nt lying. The updated Sonarworks gave me bananas results!
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-waterfall.jpg  
Old 7th June 2018
  #82
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Dang! Just get rid of that ring at 50hz and your room is almost perfect. Looks a little bright to me. A slight roll off from low to high is preferable
Old 8th June 2018
  #83
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Dang! Just get rid of that ring at 50hz and your room is almost perfect. Looks a little bright to me. A slight roll off from low to high is preferable
I have a new thread up discussing the new Sonarworks and something Dandan said got me thinking into using a super simple EQ on the masterbus to cut out at that ring and yeah.... Sonarworks didnt address that ring at all because simple EQ put a HUGE dent in it. I went a lil' extra to take decay down further. Also, I experimented with using my crappy mic stand and found mic stand problems don't cut from EQ of course. I brought back my good mic stand and tried to cut that spike above 600 and it didn't budge. So I'm thinking that's the mic stand vibration.
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-waterfall-2.jpg  
Old 8th June 2018
  #84
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyMele View Post
I have a new thread up discussing the new Sonarworks and something Dandan said got me thinking into using a super simple EQ on the masterbus to cut out at that ring and yeah.... Sonarworks didnt address that ring at all because simple EQ put a HUGE dent in it. I went a lil' extra to take decay down further. Also, I experimented with using my crappy mic stand and found mic stand problems don't cut from EQ of course. I brought back my good mic stand and tried to cut that spike above 600 and it didn't budge. So I'm thinking that's the mic stand vibration.
Response looks better. Decay times still a bit long. Parametric eq with high q?

A couple tuned traps in the right place could sort it out too if youre bothered.
Old 8th June 2018
  #85
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Response looks better. Decay times still a bit long. Parametric eq with high q?

A couple tuned traps in the right place could sort it out too if youre bothered.
Yup, although I think don't think I have it tweaked just right because that oddball quiet long ring pops up down low. That's honestly around room noise level though so I doubt it's a biggie. I may get GIK Scopus tuned membrane traps... eventually.... it'll probably be a while until I throw that kind of money again. I've read the recommended is 4-6 Scopus's in my type of situation although this room has one odd atribute I came across. I ran a sine wave centered at 48 hz. That rear door is a closet. Small walk-in actually. So 48 hz is of course very loud near the rear wall... until I walk in front of the door then it just disappears. Poof! Gone! I'd actually say it's a null in that corner it's so extreme. So I'm wondering since that door is obviously a very effective trap at the first axial ring if I can get away with less Scopus traps.
Old 8th June 2018
  #86
Gear Head
 

So I guess that begs the question if I got tuned 'branes how many and where because I have no experience with them. I mean the rear wall is obvious. But the sine waves loud on the lower front wall. The subs loading the corner on the front wall and it's down firing so I'd say that's obvious. The other rear corner at the little alcove entrance sounds like it's really ringing there. So...a scopus is 23" x 23"... two on the rear corner and two on the front wall near the floor corner?
Old 8th June 2018
  #87
Lives for gear
 
Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyMele View Post
So I guess that begs the question if I got tuned 'branes how many and where because I have no experience with them. I mean the rear wall is obvious. But the sine waves loud on the lower front wall. The subs loading the corner on the front wall and it's down firing so I'd say that's obvious. The other rear corner at the little alcove entrance sounds like it's really ringing there. So...a scopus is 23" x 23"... two on the rear corner and two on the front wall near the floor corner?
Ive always heard around 1% of the rooms volume for a pressure based trap. It must be placed in the areas of greatest pressure for its target Fc
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump