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Next steps or thoughts on small mix room? Studio Monitors
Old 30th April 2018
  #31
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RTA with pink noise can help to find the optimal position, which could be off the ground...
Old 30th April 2018
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
RTA with pink noise can help to find the optimal position, which could be off the ground...
Thanks! I’ll give that a shot tommorow.
Old 30th April 2018
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyMele View Post
I picked up an HS8S sub. Just hooked it up. I’m super stoked to report that the very first placement indeed eliminated SBIR nulls and initial reports are showing the main bass nulls are much narrower and far shallower.
Good to hear

I had a very similar issue in a similar-sized room: a big null (in my case around 67Hz) caused by a double-whammy of a room mode and SBIR. Thread here:

Big frequency dip in treated room - what are my options?

I managed to reduce the null from around -30dB to -5dB by:
  • Moving my speakers as close to the front wall as possible
  • Moving my listening position forwards - away from the hallowed 38%, which in a small room like mine had me sitting too close to the middle of the room!
  • Adding more acoustic treatment, especially to the rear wall, targeting <100Hz
  • Adding a subwoofer to my set up (as you have done), which helped to reduce the 67Hz null quite considerably
  • Using Dirac Live software for finishing touches
Old 1st May 2018
  #34
Gear Head
 

Center front of speaker 2’ from front wall seems to be the ideal position. Worst FR dip is no longer in sub range and centered just over 350 hz. I had two 2” panels doubled up on back wall. I plucked one and stuck it on top of the desk. Didn’t make a hell of a difference but I may keep it there *shrugs* What do most of you guys set your bottom dB at on REW for decay?
Old 1st May 2018
  #35
Gear Head
 

Next experiment... There should be room for 1” more of material in the absorption frame on the desk. I’m going to plop a 1” left over panel of eco core under the 2” panel on desk and see what happens. I’m hoping this alleviates the low mid range nulls. I’m buying a cheap 4 foot by 1 foot rubber made shelf at Home Depot to lay over the back half of panel. That way the computer monitors don’t crush the insulation. We’ll see what happens.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #36
Gear Head
 

I haven’t measured yet, but tonight I worked on my desk. Has 3” now. 2” didn’t do much except for the dip in highs. 3” Audible improvement. I then busted out a mirror and my reflections points and cloud were now borderline with new speaker placement. Remounted them further up. I put on a few of my favorite references.... It was a holy moment... everything magically fell into place. I think that comb filtering beginning at 350 hz got its butt kicked. Punchy and tight! Tommorow... Sonarworks.
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-image_6091_0.jpg  
Old 2nd May 2018
  #37
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Old 2nd May 2018
  #38
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Here's the FR from original pre-sub measurement vs sub, treated desk, and rearrangement of speakers. A few things better in original and a few things better in afterwards but everything below the 350 hz null is a crazy improvement. I'm thinking sonarworks with a slight bass rolloff to nip that low ring should be able to cut the heads off those peaks and get everything within a 10 db range. I'm setting boost at 6 db because I think 12 is crazy and counterproductive. Take into account these two measurements are a decibel and a half off from each other. I will have sonarworks measurements tomorrow. Should be interesting.
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-without-sonar.jpg  
Old 2nd May 2018
  #39
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I'm wondering if I'm getting reflections off my computer monitors... something else to adjust and play around with.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyMele View Post
I'm wondering if I'm getting reflections off my computer monitors... something else to adjust and play around with.
As long as they arent in the direct path, no. HF is too directional and LF will wrap arond them just fine. I still recommend having the monitors closer to the front wall and move the sub out a bit and maybe a foot or two off the ground, but lets see what sonarworks does
Old 2nd May 2018
  #41
Gear Head
 

I’d be really interested in trying your subwoofer suggestion route out. How does one raise it? It’s bottom firing though. Mains get finicky if I go back. Yamaha recommends at least 7” from port to wall and my fronts are 24” so I’m close to that mark. Also maybe I should try to raise speakers. Now that I think about it they are probably really close to 50% of the vertical.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #42
Gear Head
 

Scratch that, raising mains would be worse and put the woofer smack dab in the middle unless it was a hell of a raise.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #43
Gear Head
 

You're right though. We'll try Sonarworks first. If there's one man I'm going to listen to it's Ethan Winer and he seems to suggest in a multitude of posts that if i can get within a 10 db range in a home room like this it's a success. Although, concerning the subwoofer, I can still dabble with that. My sub is down firing, can I raise that and how? My Decay is looking pretty dynamite until 55 hz, then horror story. I dont think that 80hz ring is a biggie since it doesn't ring until under 35 db, am I right there? We'll put Sonarworks to the decay test as well. Although, I don't do EDM so the sonarworks roll off feature won't stress me out down real low.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #44
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Whoops forgot to post waterfall...
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-decay.jpg  
Old 2nd May 2018
  #45
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What does the ETC look like in REW?
Old 2nd May 2018
  #46
Gear Head
 

Thanks! I've never read IR. Huh, learning more new things. I looked up a GIK article about how to set limits and read it. Although, I'm still not sure what I'm looking at. Anyhow, I did one more big experiment. The table is from ikea and I realized the top probably comes off. I took the top off and placed the 2" panel on top of the metal table frame. This pretty much takes the desktop completely out of the equation... I thought'd it help but... I think I'm putting the desk back on with the 3" of treatment on top. Gold is treated table top, Red is OC703 panel with nothing underneath. I'd say the desk reflections off the treated desktop are a much lesser evil than the floor reflections it prevents. I'll post the IR of treated desktop vs OC703 with no desktop. What do you think?
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-desk.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-no-desk.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-ir.jpg  
Old 2nd May 2018
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyMele View Post
Thanks! I've never read IR. Huh, learning more new things. I looked up a GIK article about how to set limits and read it. Although, I'm still not sure what I'm looking at. Anyhow, I did one more big experiment. The table is from ikea and I realized the top probably comes off. I took the top off and placed the 2" panel on top of the metal table frame. This pretty much takes the desktop completely out of the equation... I thought'd it help but... I think I'm putting the desk back on with the 3" of treatment on top. Gold is treated table top, Red is OC703 panel with nothing underneath. I'd say the desk reflections off the treated desktop are a much lesser evil than the floor reflections it prevents. I'll post the IR of treated desktop vs OC703 with no desktop. What do you think?
Good, i can see your desk at like 2ms buts its at like -18db. -20db is considered non detrimental. Have you adjusted the filters on the back of your monitors? Set it to quarter room for the HPF. I would still like to see the monitors closer to the front wall, with alternate sub placement. I think you can iron the FR out a bit more.
Old 8th May 2018
  #48
Gear Head
 

Here's Left and Right PreSonarworks vs Left and Right PostSonarworks. Interesting to see how much sonarworks tightens things up. So.... I thought I was going to take a pause in treatment but all Home Depots within a drive look to be practically giving away safe and sound at $15 for a case of 12 16" batts. They must be getting rid of them entirely. My rear wall is obviously lacking. Why not kill it? So... I'm half tempted to just say "What the hell" and build two 4' wide x 5 1/2' tall floor standing bass traps at 8" depth.I could remove the rear dresser and then these would reach almost to the bottom of my ceiling corner traps and I can totally sacrifice a bit of room for a healthy air gap. They'd be somewhat mobile so I could get in the closet I barely ever use and 8 feet wide would not effect the entrance door as the rear dimension is just shy of 12 feet with the alcove entrance. So I would effectively kill about 3/4 quarters of the rear wall. Thoughts?
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-presonarworks.jpg   Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-postsonarworks.jpg  
Old 8th May 2018
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyMele View Post
Here's Left and Right PreSonarworks vs Right and Left PostSonarworks. Interesting to see how much sonarworks tightens things up. So.... I thought I was going to take a pause in treatment but all Home Depots within a drive look to be practically giving away safe and sound at $15 for a case of 12 16" batts. They must be getting rid of them entirely. My rear wall is obviously lacking. Why not kill it? So... I'm half tempted to just say "What the hell" and build two 4' wide x 5 1/2' tall floor standing bass traps at 8" depth.I could remove the rear dresser and then these would reach almost to the bottom of my ceiling corner traps and I can totally sacrifice a bit of room for a healthy air gap. They'd be somewhat mobile so I could get in the closet I barely ever use and 8 feet wide would not effect the entrance door as the rear dimension is just shy of 12 feet with the alcove entrance. So I would effectively kill about 3/4 quarters of the rear wall. Thoughts?
Hell to the yeah, good plan
Old 9th May 2018
  #50
Gear Head
 

I think I confirmed all major nulls! 500 hz was actually the computer monitors. I was able to get a whopping 6 db gain by readjusting my desk. I'm not going to get into details they are just further back and angled up a bit. Sonarworks was of course turned off during all of this for natural response. Just about ever calculator and what not I can get my hands on points to 90 hz being my front to back null for my dimensions and placement. So 90 followed by octaves 180, 360, and 720. Only 180's not a huge null out of those so i think it's pretty obvious that's a mode issue. I'll officially end this thread as it seems serious rear wall treatment is the obvious next step. Thanks!
Old 9th May 2018
  #51
Gear Head
 

If anyone’s curious the studio monitors were angled in towards the listening position enough to cause a side reflection of the computer screens. I’ve read about someone else who came across a similar issue. After much fudging around with the desk and the absorption panel this was the way I got rid of the 500 hz null. I kinda dig it.
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-3745ee2a-13c8-4c4b-ae98-e563a3a89961.jpg  
Old 15th May 2018
  #52
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Cool thread. I’m watching with interest as I’m in the process of doing almost the same thing. My room is nearly the same size and will be a similar use and setup.

How happy are you with the sonar works? I assume you are using their measurement mic.

I’m slightly behind you in the process, so I’m hoping I can learn some from your success. I am curious about your issues with the desk size. That doesn’t seem all that big. I was going to build a desk bigger than that, but now I’m not so sure. Did you end up with your monitors on stands?
Old 15th May 2018
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Odyssey View Post
Cool thread. I’m watching with interest as I’m in the process of doing almost the same thing. My room is nearly the same size and will be a similar use and setup.

How happy are you with the sonar works? I assume you are using their measurement mic.

I’m slightly behind you in the process, so I’m hoping I can learn some from your success. I am curious about your issues with the desk size. That doesn’t seem all that big. I was going to build a desk bigger than that, but now I’m not so sure. Did you end up with your monitors on stands?
The best desk is no desk. From there, keep it as small as possible. Monitors always on stands.
Old 15th May 2018
  #54
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Odyssey View Post
Cool thread. I’m watching with interest as I’m in the process of doing almost the same thing. My room is nearly the same size and will be a similar use and setup.

How happy are you with the sonar works? I assume you are using their measurement mic.

I’m slightly behind you in the process, so I’m hoping I can learn some from your success. I am curious about your issues with the desk size. That doesn’t seem all that big. I was going to build a desk bigger than that, but now I’m not so sure. Did you end up with your monitors on stands?
My monitors were always on stands but in a slightly awkward position before to avoid reflections. I had to slide back a bit when listening. Theyre in a much better spot now with 3” of absorption on the desk and it’s not effecting the measurements very much save for blocking the floor reflection a bit but I wouldnt recommend it unless you only use the desktop with mouse and keyboard. I can live with it though. Yeah, next step is thick absorption on the rear wall. From what I’m reading a 12.8 feet length should result in a null at 90 hz and a null two octaves up at 360 and my room is mirroring that. So taming the backwall should help a lot ... although, I’d assume it’s going to get awfully dry in here. That back wall is technically in the latter of the early reflection distance though, so I may as well kill as much as I can. Home Depot is blowing out Safe N Sound at $15 a bag. I maybe picking that up... it’s just the closest location that still has some is over an hour a way. Lowe’s said there’s no way they can price match that low lol. I’m thinking 2 bags should cover almost all the remaining rear drywall with 9” of safe n sound. The door will limit me to a two inch air gap... I just need to figure out the easiest and cost effective way to frame it all. If I can avoid cutting the batts that’d be great.
Old 15th May 2018
  #55
Gear Head
 

I’m thinking the absolute cheapest solution would be not to make frames and instead mount boards to the wall horizontally like shelving and sticking the sns in like it was joists. I can mount the first shelf up 47” and then the next shelf up 15” and then it work out that I wouldn’t have to cut any batts. Then I could grab thin cheap furring strips to make fabric frames to Velcro over the SnS... we’ll see
Old 16th May 2018
  #56
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Just to update I downscaled just a smidge on the rear wall plan. After a wild goose chase for clearance SnS all local Home Depot’s were out. Owens Corning has a new mineral wool product I came across called Fire and Sound guard. Decent price. I looked up the coefficients on their site. 6” is 1.35 at 120hz. Deepest they list. Works for me. I’ll have two floor standing 4’ x 4’ traps at 9 inches with about a 2.5” air gap. I should have enough mineral to compress one side a tiny smudge to get a full 11.5” deep near the tricorner for extra low end absorbtion. Trap design will be an 1x12 board on top and bottom. Side will be framed with 1x4’s to allow side absorption. I’ll be placing an existing 2” oc703 panel on top of one to grab reflections behind my head and the other I will utilize the top as a shelf lol. Getting to work tommorow.
Old 18th May 2018
  #57
Gear Head
 

I ended up just buying another bag of mineral wool and going 12” deep. Whew! I don’t want to build another trap for a looooonnnggg time! Haha. So two 4’x4’x12” traps on rear wall. Forgive the book stack ghetto’ness lmao
Attached Thumbnails
Next steps or thoughts on small mix room?-c6d33ea3-6cfa-4b85-9f19-4ef1eb879f86.jpg  
Old 18th May 2018
  #58
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What kind of mineral wool? Rigid or fluffy?
Old 18th May 2018
  #59
Gear Head
 

Something to consider. I raised them a bit off the floor to nip any direct reflections. I’m doing no measurements tonight. Got my room back up and loaded my favorite reference tracks....... it’s absolutely crazy how louder the low to low mids are! See what happens tommorow when I whip the mic out.
Old 18th May 2018
  #60
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You may need to turn one into a pressure based device, run rew again and tell me the exact frequency of that big bump around 50hz.
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