The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Does it matter how high a fully absorptive ceiling is? Studio Monitors
Old 24th April 2018
  #61
Gear Guru
Auto

attaboy it would probably be best to run just one thread. You have so many, that most people won't know the basics which everything depends on.
e.g. This is an underground basement garage with one wall shared with a neighbour. This is a performance room primarily for one acoustic guitar. There will also be a mixing area. There are no Acoustic measurements or recordings as is. Nor do we know how much noise from where needs to be stopped. Except there is football happening upstairs on the concrete floor/ceiling.

DD
Old 24th April 2018
  #62
Well as I haven't seen the other threads, DanDan just gave me more information about your situation than I've gotten from two full pages here.

I think communication needs to be worked on a little. The people here want to help, but this journey has been more than a little confusing.
Old 25th April 2018
  #63
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndykstra View Post
Over the whole ceiling? probably not. Certainly an area of it. I'd put the drums under a cloud for close mics and over heads and have the room mic out somewhere in a more lively portion.
Ok but wouldn't that limit you to being able to only record in that area under the cloud?
Old 25th April 2018
  #64
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
attaboy it would probably be best to run just one thread. You have so many, that most people won't know the basics which everything depends on.
e.g. This is an underground basement garage with one wall shared with a neighbour. This is a performance room primarily for one acoustic guitar. There will also be a mixing area. There are no Acoustic measurements or recordings as is. Nor do we know how much noise from where needs to be stopped. Except there is football happening upstairs on the concrete floor/ceiling.

DD
Dan, this has nothing to do with my room and just theory in general. I like the conversations about this stuff because I learn a lot. I don't want to focus on my room because then I will get answers specific to that and what I am interested in is learning about recording rooms in general.
Old 25th April 2018
  #65
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremiah Sheets View Post
The people here want to help, but this journey has been more than a little confusing.
Why?Maybe you think I have some other angle when the point was a just a theoretical conversation. I am very satisfied with the input from everyone. Sorry if you were confused. I tried to be as clear as possible in the OP.
Old 25th April 2018
  #66
Well I'm not playing along anymore. Good luck.
Old 25th April 2018
  #67
Gear Maniac
 

If your ceiling is 8' high, there is no benefit in having any floor to ceiling reflections at all, your best bet is to use absorption across the whole ceiling, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. I am not sure how high starts becoming decent enough for some live reflections... as always, there are different opinions that contradict each other
Old 25th April 2018
  #68
Gear Guru
Generic

Quote:
Dan, this has nothing to do with my room and just theory in general. I like the conversations about this stuff because I learn a lot. I don't want to focus on my room because then I will get answers specific to that and what I am interested in is learning about recording rooms in general.
I suggest you write a brief spec and paste it into the OP of any thread you start. Our responses have everything to do with the room's purpose, i.e. Recording, Mixing, Both. Size. Noise considerations.
Many of the helpful replies here were made unknowing of these contexts, and are partly irrelevant or wrong. That is frustrating and wasteful.

DD
Old 25th April 2018
  #69
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljefe View Post
If your ceiling is 8' high, there is no benefit in having any floor to ceiling reflections at all, your best bet is to use absorption across the whole ceiling, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. I am not sure how high starts becoming decent enough for some live reflections... as always, there are different opinions that contradict each other
Ok. Well we were talking about a hypothetical 10' ceiling

regardless. Say it's 8'. Since this is our hypothetical thread. No benefit? I call BS. Many people on this corner of the forum seem to wish to coat the world with fiber. Why? Instruments tracked in a quasi residential environment can give a very intimate feel. It's a comforting familiar sounding vibe. You don't have to track everything with this aesthetic but I refuse to subscribe to a philosophy that states that it is useless. Flexibility is key. Make your whole tracking room sound the same and you may as well load up a palette with a few shades of beige. Put the instrument under the cloud and the mic in the bare area. Vice Versa. Create and capture both under bare, both under cloud. SPL and desired vibe will steer you. I hung a mic down and empty elevator shaft... two of those dimensions were around 8'. It was hardly useless.

From a practical standpoint where the "vibe" isn't even a factor, I wouldn't hesitate to close mic amps in a room with 8' ceilings and no cloud.

To say that nothing can sound good in a room with an 8' ceiling is to say nothing has ever sounded good in a residential space ever. I think you are being way too over simplistic.
Old 25th April 2018
  #70
Gear Guru
PZM

Word. Varied recording spaces are colours on the palette. Worth a reminder I reckon that any microphone placed at a boundary becomes a PZM, eliminating that earliest reflection. DPA 4061's can be taped to a low ceiling or the wall behind the drummer.

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 25th April 2018 at 04:24 PM..
Old 25th April 2018
  #71
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremiah Sheets View Post
Well I'm not playing along anymore. Good luck.
Are you breaking up with me? Just like that?
Old 25th April 2018
  #72
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
Are you breaking up with me? Just like that?
You're lucky you still have your brown paper bag, Small Change!
...Now how about a friendly game of "Spin the Pickle"?
.
Old 25th April 2018
  #73
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndykstra View Post
Ok. Well we were talking about a hypothetical 10' ceiling

regardless. Say it's 8'. Since this is our hypothetical thread. No benefit? I call BS. Many people on this corner of the forum seem to wish to coat the world with fiber. Why? Instruments tracked in a quasi residential environment can give a very intimate feel. It's a comforting familiar sounding vibe. You don't have to track everything with this aesthetic but I refuse to subscribe to a philosophy that states that it is useless. Flexibility is key. Make your whole tracking room sound the same and you may as well load up a palette with a few shades of beige. Put the instrument under the cloud and the mic in the bare area. Vice Versa. Create and capture both under bare, both under cloud. SPL and desired vibe will steer you. I hung a mic down and empty elevator shaft... two of those dimensions were around 8'. It was hardly useless.

From a practical standpoint where the "vibe" isn't even a factor, I wouldn't hesitate to close mic amps in a room with 8' ceilings and no cloud.

To say that nothing can sound good in a room with an 8' ceiling is to say nothing has ever sounded good in a residential space ever. I think you are being way too over simplistic.
Don't you get comb filtering from surfaces 8' apart?
Old 25th April 2018
  #74
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Word. Varied recording spaces are colours on the palette. Worth a reminder I reckon that any microphone placed at a boundary becomes a PZM, eliminating that earliest reflection. DPA 4061's can be taped to a low ceiling or the wall behind the drummer.

DD
what is PZM?
Old 25th April 2018
  #75
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
Don't you get comb filtering from surfaces 8' apart?
every reflection combined with direct signal causes comb filtering. It's unavoidable
Old 25th April 2018
  #76
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
what is PZM?
pressure zone microphone.

Shure Beta 91 is common
Old 25th April 2018
  #77
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I suggest you write a brief spec and paste it into the OP of any thread you start. Our responses have everything to do with the room's purpose, i.e. Recording, Mixing, Both. Size. Noise considerations.
Many of the helpful replies here were made unknowing of these contexts, and are partly irrelevant or wrong. That is frustrating and wasteful.

DD
yes yes, but I am way too disorganized for a brief . I guess we should have started the thread with this question: When and why are absorptive ceilings used in the recording studio because it seems that there is a lot of difference in opinion.
Old 25th April 2018
  #78
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndykstra View Post
every reflection combined with direct signal causes comb filtering. It's unavoidable
yes but aren't those that are only 8ft away and from a parallel surface detrimental to a recording?
Old 25th April 2018
  #79
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
yes but aren't those that are only 8ft away and from a parallel surface detrimental to a recording?
maybe.

sometimes.

Live room acoustics do not follow the rules of critical listening acoustics. There's art involved when transparency is not your ultimate goal.

Put a figure 8 mic halfway between a singer's mouth and a glass window total of maybe ~2' from mouth to window. Duplicate the track and flip the phase. Depending on your project this sounds either very right or very wrong.
Old 25th April 2018
  #80
Gear Guru
Ceilings

Quote:
When and why are absorptive ceilings used in the recording studio because it seems that there is a lot of difference in opinion.
I cannot remember seeing any Control Room without an absorptive ceiling.

Where there is height available in a Live Room, we do see partly reflective ceilings.
The reflective parts are often angled or curved.

But when height is restricted, again absorptive is the way I would go.

DD
Old 26th April 2018
  #81
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndykstra View Post
maybe.

sometimes.

Live room acoustics do not follow the rules of critical listening acoustics. There's art involved when transparency is not your ultimate goal.

Put a figure 8 mic halfway between a singer's mouth and a glass window total of maybe ~2' from mouth to window. Duplicate the track and flip the phase. Depending on your project this sounds either very right or very wrong.
Live rooms need even higher ceilings!! Residential spaces are not apt for audio recording and playback and the main factor is the ceiling height. This is why absorption is the only option for those that wish to work in such spaces.
Old 26th April 2018
  #82
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I cannot remember seeing any Control Room without an absorptive ceiling.

Where there is height available in a Live Room, we do see partly reflective ceilings.
The reflective parts are often angled or curved.

But when height is restricted, again absorptive is the way I would go.

DD
Thanks Dan. This is the way I had understood it too. What is considered "restricted"?
Old 26th April 2018
  #83
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljefe View Post
Live rooms need even higher ceilings!! Residential spaces are not apt for audio recording and playback and the main factor is the ceiling height. This is why absorption is the only option for those that wish to work in such spaces.
We just disagree. That's fine. If there was one way to do this, the forum would be incredibly boring. 8' is probably a little low to get useful tracks of a non-effect nature. I'll agree to that. Especially if you are capturing and emitting under the bare. Unless it's close mic'ed amps.

10'... now I'm starting to disagree. Atta, you're going to be hard pressed to find a "rule" here.



10 Great Albums Recorded at Home :: Music :: Lists :: Paste

probably not a speck of ceiling absorption in sight, though probably also vaulted ceilings.
Old 26th April 2018
  #84
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndykstra View Post

10'... now I'm starting to disagree. Atta, you're going to be hard pressed to find a "rule" here.
I have read in several places that the minimum is 10' (I think John brandt recommends 9' here YouTube). This also checks with what Dan said that if your ceiling is low then absorption is the only way.
Old 26th April 2018
  #85
Gear Guru
Shades of Grey

There is no Minimum, no Maximum, No true Black, No True White. Let's say in terms of Colour Temperature or Luminosity or whatever measurement of Colour, what is the threshold between Black and White? There isn't one.

Certainly many recordings are made with low ceilings. Particularly Amps near the floor, instruments and vocals of seated musicians. A standing singer or drum overheads obviously need more height. An 8' ceiling delivers very strong reflections due to the very short distance to the mic.
If you have over 8" great, but a seated singer is still only 4 feet from two sets of reflections. So for all common prosumer heights , over drums and vocalists and mixing area, Absorption obviously. As the height increases options creep in. Space Couplers....
Over the back of the room, seated instrument area, scattering or diffusion could be considered. Maybe real diffusion or that fairly harmless random lath thing we see everywhere. There is a minimum recommended distance for (con)fusion.
DD
Old 27th April 2018
  #86
Lives for gear
Quote:
Hello,

Record at home is possible if the distance mic-source (unplugged) is little. And for all amplified instruments a mic is useless.


Play at home is possible, i assisted at piano concerts in appartement without problem. The musician adapte his playing to the room environment.


The big problem in a little room is the quality of the bass production and reproduction.
Old 27th April 2018
  #87
Lives for gear
Little has aslo a big advantage for the bass re-production.

This advantage increase when the size of the room decrease.

Last edited by dinococcus; 27th April 2018 at 07:22 PM..
Top Mentioned Products
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump