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Psychoacoustic Smothing
Old 14th April 2018
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engin View Post
I understand that most of the listening environments will have a BK curve naturally for the reasons you've said.
The Bk curve was one curve. Harman for exemple has produce an other curve more different than the Bk Curve
You risk to have target curve as much as there are people.
Old 14th April 2018
  #32
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Don't bother with different curves (for the upper range at least), as long as the direct sound meassures flat it doesent matter what the response of the entire system (speaker + room) is: Acoustics Issue
Old 14th April 2018
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engin View Post
A different perspective and a very good point.

Another way to put it might be:

Your room might attenuate some nasty bits. That nasty bits could very well be much more present in the final mix in a room that does not have the same null.

That brings another hypothetical question to mind.

It is not unusual for a hat sample to have some resonant frequencies (that causes mild ringing/whistles) that needs to be attenuated and this are typically in the very high end of the frequency spectrum.

Also as the frequencies goes higher the nulls gets deeper.

So what if this nasty bit is attenuated by the room and you don't realize and it goes into the final mix.

Is this hypothetical problem happening at all?

Or the fact that the nulls in the higher end changes rapidly with listening position helps your brain average the nulls out.
Well, I've definitely noticed that in many ways, our mixes tend to sound "the opposite" of the way our monitoring sounds.

...If that makes any sense.
.
Old 14th April 2018
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Well, I've definitely noticed that in many ways, our mixes tend to sound "the opposite" of the way our monitoring sounds.

...If that makes any sense.
.
That makes perfect sense.

That's why it's good to measure your room. So that you don't overcompensate.

And there's ear training. And I believe this is the phenomenon that can explain how some producers can produce and mix great tracks in environments with little to no acoustic treatment.

When your ear get used to how ****ty your room contributes to the mix. You can hear the mix behind the room and mix accordingly.

If you listen to great mixes in your studio all the time then your ear knows how a great mix + room sounds like. You can just imitate that.

It won't be pleasant to work with but that'll do the job.

That said, obviously we all want good sounding rooms
Old 14th April 2018
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engin View Post
That makes perfect sense. [...] If you listen to great mixes in your studio all the time then your ear knows how a great mix + room sounds like. You can just imitate that.
[...]
...Well, except for the parts that your brain has "filled in".

On those things, you'll get "the opposite".
.
Old 14th April 2018
  #36
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
...Well, except for the parts that your brain has "filled in".

On those things, you'll get "the opposite".
.
Why?

I think the idea there is that, the brain can fill in a missing harmonic (which it does).

So, your room has a null at 130Hz, and you have a saw tooth bass note at 65Hz fundamental. The brain can will in the 130Hz harmonic. And that doesn't affect your mix at all.

However a null can also hide a nasty resonant frequency, so that can hinder your mix.

So, no, the brain filling up harmonics doesn't really have anything to do with getting the opposite.

However, if your room response is to boost low end, you can very well have a weak low end because you'll think it's strong as it is where as it is the room's contribution that is making it strong.
Old 14th April 2018
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engin View Post
Why? [...]
Because your brain only "fills in" what it "misses":

If it doesn't "miss it", then it doesn't know what the hell to "fill in".

There just might be something that really should be there, but (since your brain never knew it should be there) is ignored in your mix.

Maybe it matters, or maybe it doesn't (depending).

...But either way, you are much better off with the most honest representation possible of what the hell is actually going on there.
.
Old 15th April 2018
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
If evaluating only direct sound either works, but if you want a correct representatiin of both direct sound and room return; a diffuse field mic aimed upp is the only way.
in the case of Sean Olive test, it's for evaluate the result of equalization buy dsp for the room correction.
Old 15th April 2018
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Because your brain only "fills in" what it "misses":

If it doesn't "miss it", then it doesn't know what the hell to "fill in".

There just might be something that really should be there, but (since your brain never knew it should be there) is ignored in your mix.

Maybe it matters, or maybe it doesn't (depending).

...But either way, you are much better off with the most honest representation possible of what the hell is actually going on there.
.
hello,

the brain do what he can.
it's depend of the width and the localization in the frequency band.
When you have the conjonction of an annulation due to the floor and the front wall giving a width equal at 1/3 octave centered around 200 hz / -5 db, the brain cry.
Old 15th April 2018
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
in the case of Sean Olive test, it's for evaluate the result of equalization buy dsp for the room correction.
I guess mr Olive knows very well the pros and cons of the measuring system used.
Old 15th April 2018
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
I guess mr Olive knows very well the pros and cons of the measuring system used.
http://petoindominique.fr/pdf/The%20...20Products.pdf

the position of the mic is not in this document.


At the end of this pdf "Flat in-room response is not the optimal target response (program may be a nuisance variable)"
Old 15th April 2018
  #42
Gear Guru
No Return

Quote:
The contradiction here is the literature that says, your observed spectrum analysis of your final mixdown should also look like a BK curve (a pink noise). This is not a acoustical question any more but merely a mixing question and kind of off topic on this sub forum. But I'd like to hear what you think about that anyway.
I would encourage finding coincidence and validity instead of confusing contradiction. All you need is love......;-)

Humans do not like a flat spectrum of sound. Compare White Noise to Pink, well?

I have read that the spectrum of a symphony orchestra is remarkably similar to well mixed rock, and to pink noise.
Coincidence Watson?

Quote:
But if this is true (which I can cite a book if I look hard). You'll basically hear double BK curve in your CR. One that you applied in your mixing and the other one is the room's contribution.
You are overthinking and wrecking your head. A well trodden path.

If anything we are applying an inverse B&K trend in mixing and mastering.
I always had problems clearing up mixes, making them bright and separated and spacious. We would spend vast amounts of time tracking and correcting, in good natural sounding headphones. Put the Monitor mix, which everybody has been enjoying up on the speakers in the room. Dull. This is the single biggest problem I and many others encounter in studios where theoreticians go for flat or close to it, instead of going straight to the end game.
As I said, Sennheiser HD650s have B&K or very similar to my ear, built in.

Let's go back again. AM Radio cannot transmit anything over 4kHz. So when FM Radio and Hi Fi came in what happened? Well perhaps surprising not so much. That 15kHz bandwidth was not particularly obvious due to a 1B per octave fall off toward HF due to room tone and speaker radiation characteristics. Gradually speaker Manufacturers believed speakers with SuperTweeters and so on, which were Anechoically Flat. In real rooms, as measured by pretty much everybody over time, same result, HF rolled off whatever way one choses to describe it.

The Harman, B&K, SonarWorks, Dirac recommended, are strictly speaking all different. No sh1t sherlock. But what is the common characteristic, the useful one? An Acoustic Basis for the Harman Listener Target Curve | InnerFidelity
I played around with Target Curves for at least two years using Dirac Live. Ultimately the one which translates instantly and reliably, and sounds the same as HD650..... is the old faithful. Is that even slightly surprising logically?

I have never been aware of 'room tone' in any decent Control Room. I am working at 85dB in a Direct Field. Early reflections are -20 to -30dB down. Later reflections, are below that. Sometimes there is some daft attempt to reflect a pathetic little puff of HF diffused or a specular kick from the back of the room to the back of my ears. Really? HF only below -20dB to the BACK of the ears, while the front is experiencing 85dB Mastered Level Direct Sound. There is no chance any of that nonsense is audible.
The Mix and Mastering condition is Anechoic. This absence of destructive and smearing tonality leads to extreme clarity of hearing the recording. But if one were to work with that and Flat Direct Field response, the Mix or Master will be 6dB dull in the Listener's Room. Is that even slightly surprising logically?

DD
Old 15th April 2018
  #43
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
hello, the brain do what he can.
it's depend of the width and the localization in the frequency band.
When you have the conjonction of an annulation due to the floor and the front wall giving a width equal at 1/3 octave centered around 200 hz / -5 db, the brain cry.



.
Old 16th April 2018
  #44
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I would encourage finding coincidence and validity instead of confusing contradiction. All you need is love......;-)

Humans do not like a flat spectrum of sound. Compare White Noise to Pink, well?

I have read that the spectrum of a symphony orchestra is remarkably similar to well mixed rock, and to pink noise.
Coincidence Watson?


You are overthinking and wrecking your head. A well trodden path.

If anything we are applying an inverse B&K trend in mixing and mastering.
I always had problems clearing up mixes, making them bright and separated and spacious. We would spend vast amounts of time tracking and correcting, in good natural sounding headphones. Put the Monitor mix, which everybody has been enjoying up on the speakers in the room. Dull. This is the single biggest problem I and many others encounter in studios where theoreticians go for flat or close to it, instead of going straight to the end game.
As I said, Sennheiser HD650s have B&K or very similar to my ear, built in.

Let's go back again. AM Radio cannot transmit anything over 4kHz. So when FM Radio and Hi Fi came in what happened? Well perhaps surprising not so much. That 15kHz bandwidth was not particularly obvious due to a 1B per octave fall off toward HF due to room tone and speaker radiation characteristics. Gradually speaker Manufacturers believed speakers with SuperTweeters and so on, which were Anechoically Flat. In real rooms, as measured by pretty much everybody over time, same result, HF rolled off whatever way one choses to describe it.

The Harman, B&K, SonarWorks, Dirac recommended, are strictly speaking all different. No sh1t sherlock. But what is the common characteristic, the useful one? An Acoustic Basis for the Harman Listener Target Curve | InnerFidelity
I played around with Target Curves for at least two years using Dirac Live. Ultimately the one which translates instantly and reliably, and sounds the same as HD650..... is the old faithful. Is that even slightly surprising logically?

I have never been aware of 'room tone' in any decent Control Room. I am working at 85dB in a Direct Field. Early reflections are -20 to -30dB down. Later reflections, are below that. Sometimes there is some daft attempt to reflect a pathetic little puff of HF diffused or a specular kick from the back of the room to the back of my ears. Really? HF only below -20dB to the BACK of the ears, while the front is experiencing 85dB Mastered Level Direct Sound. There is no chance any of that nonsense is audible.
The Mix and Mastering condition is Anechoic. This absence of destructive and smearing tonality leads to extreme clarity of hearing the recording. But if one were to work with that and Flat Direct Field response, the Mix or Master will be 6dB dull in the Listener's Room. Is that even slightly surprising logically?

DD
Yes, we are 99% on the same page.

From all these, there is one thing certain for sure and that is: Listeners like to hear a 1dB/octave slope in the spectral balance.

No arguments there.

Apparently, some headphone manufacturer's like Oppo incorporated this curve into their products. So they are more representative of a normal rooms response (except the decay times).

(As a side note, even though the text of article you've linked says that HD650 follows a similar curve, the image does not agree. It has a roll off in the low end too which is very much like NOT a BK (or Harman) curve. What do you think about that?).

My main confusion came from the fact that some mixing books says that the spectral balance of your mix should look like a pink noise's. Which means you have a BK curve in your spectral balance in your mix as it leaves your computer.

Then if we have a BK curve in our room's response. There will be two BK curve applied to the record. One in the computer, mixing process. One the room's response.

So basically, listeners might be loving the 2dB/octave slope
Old 16th April 2018
  #45
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Lightbulb

Sorry for jumping in. Does anybody know what the Rt60 graph looks like for Nottheards rooms?

Thx
Old 16th April 2018
  #46
Gear Guru
Ta Dum Tish

@JLSilver, certainly, the Front To Back concept means it starts anechoic and gradually builds up to a nice reverb wash....
It is awkward though as you have to be physically reversed and view the DAW screen in a mirror.......

Joshing obviously..... With very few exceptions, all Control Rooms are Anechoic in terms of the path from speaker to Listener. It goes back, Hidley, Newell, Non Environment, but I am sure there was plenty of it going on way before that. Same as it ever was. At the highest levels of engineering, NorthWard, Newell, etc. the sound from the speaker to ear will experience really no interruptions, really anechoic, full range down to low LF, better than most actual Anechoic Chambers. BUT sound emanating from other sources in the room, say people talking, moving about, playing instruments, will experience a recommended 0.4S ideally according to Newell.
NE is a false friend in a sense, it does not suggest the directional aspect which FTB does, although they are the same in that principle. John Brandt has another name for his version of the same thing, which eludes me right now.
Many don't bother putting their own 'Brand' on it , as it is really just a norm.


engin..... head wreck isn't it?

A Loudspeaker at best may have a Flat Response in an Anechoic room, on axis.
In a domestic room this response will become 1dB per octave tilted downward. Do remember that tweeters have quite a narrow dispersion while LF is Omni.

The best mixes will sound excellent on these speakers in domestic rooms because that is the target scenario we have always been working for. How we achieve that varies. Do remember Bob ClearMountain placing tissue paper over his tweeters.....

If listened to on axis in an anechoic room these stunning Steely Dan and Massenburg Mixes will be 6dB tilted too bright.
The fact that it's electronic spectrum may be similar to that of an Orchestra or Pink Noise is what it is. A confused red fish.

So people do not like listening to flat speakers on axis in Anechoic Rooms. Unless a BK curve is applied, which is pretty much what many of us are actually doing. i.e. Listening in an almost Anechoic CR with the tweeters turned down. In the dark.... with no underpants........

I hadn't noticed the rolled off LF in the Sennheisers, good to know. I guess for critical listening I would plug in Canopener Studio, which simulates the centre summing including LF build up which speakers do. Maybe Sennheiser REALLY know what they are doing....



DD

Last edited by DanDan; 16th April 2018 at 01:52 PM..
Old 17th April 2018
  #47
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
In the dark.... with no underpants........
I was not entirely sober when I first read that and I laughed way more than I should I have...

Thanks for your input Dan, we are on the same page.
Old 8th August 2019
  #48
Reviving this thread on purpose because I think it's the only thread about the "psychoacoustic smoothing" in REW on GS.

(In somewhat typical GS fashion) This thread talks about pretty much everything under the sun, except "psychoacoustic smoothing" in REW.

Who uses it or has used it. Experiences? Opinions (on "psychoacoustic smothing"!)?
Old 8th August 2019
  #49
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I used it and i find it close to what I hear in the Frequency domain.
Old 8th August 2019
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Reviving this thread on purpose because I think it's the only thread about the "psychoacoustic smoothing" in REW on GS.

(In somewhat typical GS fashion) This thread talks about pretty much everything under the sun, except "psychoacoustic smoothing" in REW.

Who uses it or has used it. Experiences? Opinions (on "psychoacoustic smothing"!)?
The generic answer why there is different smoothing availible: ”It depends”. How much detail do we like to see? If your latest trap made any difference? Or just general trends?

I regulary use ”psy”- smoothing when I adjust levels of overlaid measurements (All SPL chart) in order to compare them.

IMHO It’s more ”what it sounds like” (e.g. narrow dips ignored).
(If that is scientificly approved, I dont know )

Then I might post the plots with Variable smoothing for a ”cleaner look”. (less detail in the high end)

Best
Old 8th August 2019
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Or just general trends?
Exactly. I haven't experimented with making things look good with psychoacoustic smoothing but I am looking forward to trying that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
I regulary use ”psy”- smoothing when I adjust levels of overlaid measurements (All SPL chart) in order to compare them.
In other words, you don't use it for much else?
Old 9th August 2019
  #52
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I do use it when I'm evaluating progress while treating and tuning a room, comparing early measurements with later ones, as it does help to get an idea of what is working and what still needs to be done, ... subjectively. It's not something that I use all day every day, though: you can pretty much get a feeling for what the psycho-acoustic smoothing will look like, just from looking at the normally smoothed graphs at 1/24 octave, with a bit of experience. I also use it with clients, to give them a graph that more closely matches what they are hearing in the room, as opposed to them getting bogged down from unnecessary focusing on details in the other graphs. Its fairly easy to understand and correlate with subjective impressions of the room.

It has its uses.


- Stuart -
Old 9th August 2019
  #53
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The psycho smoothing is a good example of the relative importance of the frequency response.
we say "it's not catastrophic." It reassures.

It should encourage forum members to put the priority on graphs of decay.
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