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are there more direction subwoofers than others? Plugin Bundles
Old 13th February 2018
  #1
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are there more direction subwoofers than others?

are there more directional subwoofers than others?

maxing out my room. got it dope now.. ATC 110 active, subwoofers to accompany them, got the crossover, delay and phase on point and mix position sounds good.. 4 foot deep bass trap whole back wall + all corners up and down.


behind me is a small table and then a sofa for listening. I wanted to add a small sub(s) just to make up for the energy lost either in front or by the sides of the sofa. very low volume..

i wanted to know if there are any sub woofers or methods to contain that energy in one direction not totally omni? wanna keep it localized to that area to not **** with mix pos.

i am assuming not.. but if anyone has anything to tell me that would be great.



thaaaaaaaanks
Old 13th February 2018
  #2
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Not that i know of
Old 13th February 2018
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Old 13th February 2018
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Old 13th February 2018
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Before getting too excited about directional bass, keep in mind that it likely doesn't accomplish much below the Schroeder frequency. Naturally like most things in audio this is ahem, debated, but I think it's safe to say that directional bass is fully confirmed to make a lot of sense in a huge space with an infrasonic Schroeder.

In smaller rooms (like smaller than 20,000 cubic feet), the directionality can only possibly be useful for the few ms before the resonances of the room come in to play.

In other words, unless you have achieved a VERY high absorption coefficient in all 3 dimensions, the cardioid sub will still affect the bass response in your listening position.

You might be able to rent one of these to try/test/verify this for yourself-

QSC KS Cardioid 3,600W Dual 12" Powered Subwoofer | Sweetwater

You may also find the room modeling in REW to be useful. Subwoofer placement may resolve or minimize the issue...where are they now? Did you try positioning them as close as possible to the front floor/wall/wall corner?
Old 13th February 2018
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Old 13th February 2018
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there is a TON of literature how to achieve directivity from arraying multiple (mostly omni) subwoofers - my favourite array (for studio use) is the augspurger cardioid array which only requires 2 subs, a delay and a phase flip while other setups can profit from/need applying dsp - and i think that can become almost as important as proper acoustic treatment.

p.s. check 'cardioid subwoofer array' and you'll find many many papers, reports, videos etc. (mostly from the live sound area: it's quite common to use cardioid sub arrays on a daily basis in rooms/theaters/arenas of any size - in fact, i couldn't think of any show i mixed in the last 10 years where this would have been implemented)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 13th February 2018 at 11:55 PM.. Reason: p.s. added
Old 13th February 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
a)Before getting too excited about directional bass, keep in mind that it likely doesn't accomplish much below the Schroeder frequency. Naturally like most things in audio this is ahem, debated, but I think it's safe to say that directional bass is fully confirmed to make a lot of sense in a huge space with an infrasonic Schroeder.

b)In smaller rooms (like smaller than 20,000 cubic feet), the directionality can only possibly be useful for the few ms before the resonances of the room come in to play.

c)In other words, unless you have achieved a VERY high absorption coefficient in all 3 dimensions, the cardioid sub will still affect the bass response in your listening position.
a) it's not to blame the subs alone: depending on the size of a room, the contribution to sub schroeder frequency comes also from the mains!

b) i agree that the smaller the room, the more critical it gets to have a good bass response, but the cardioid pattern (or even hypercardioid, depending on setup) can help you not to spill too much enenrgy on the side walls (or ceiling, again depending on setup) - also: the cardioid pattern has nothing to to with the onset of sound...

c) yes, you need high absorption to get a nice bass response in a small room, but you'll need less with a cardioid sub array!

finally, most any subs have some directional information: putting them across the room can get you a smoother response, but i most often find it very distracting not to hear the bass coming from the front...
Old 14th February 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
b) i agree that the smaller the room, the more critical it gets to have a good bass response, but the cardioid pattern (or even hypercardioid, depending on setup) can help you not to spill too much enenrgy on the side walls (or ceiling, again depending on setup) - also: the cardioid pattern has nothing to to with the onset of sound...
I'm curious do you have any tests that show better performance from cardioid subs in small rooms? I read a lengthy discussion about it a while ago where Geddes had made a pretty good case that the room modes dominate the equation to the point where the directivity won't have much of an affect. That being said he assumes minimal bass trapping. Certainly below the modal region directivity has no bearing.

I would be very interested to see some testing showing cardioid sub vs omni in a small room, and particularly one with trapping...

In any case, I highly doubt the OP could use a cardioid sub to affect ONLY the client couch and not the listening position. It would be amazing if it did work, I would be all over it.
Old 14th February 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
In any case, I highly doubt the OP could use a cardioid sub to affect ONLY the client couch and not the listening position. It would be amazing if it did work, I would be all over it.
that'd be truly amazing!

i don't have any measurements available as the systems i'm mostly using (smaart/b&k) belong to the rental companies i'm working for - but frankly, i don't do any kind of setup without cardioid subs unless i'm forced to do so: live it's all about getting the energy off the stage and in the studio, it's about not hitting the (front and side) walls too much; in my experience, any narrowing of the pattern helps, sometimes a great deal - and to get there, i'm using mostly lake lm controllers (as the have an almost endless amount of filters of different shapes and even large systems and/or multiple subs can be controlled very conveniently)
Old 14th February 2018
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Very low frequencies are omnidirectional to the human ear, at least under normal listening conditions and how it relates to consumer playback systems.
Old 14th February 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
it's about not hitting the (front and side) walls too much; in my experience, any narrowing of the pattern helps, sometimes a great deal - and to get there, i'm using mostly lake lm controllers (as the have an almost endless amount of filters of different shapes and even large systems and/or multiple subs can be controlled very conveniently)
Again that's all a great case for the use of directional bass in large rooms in a concert setting...no discussion to be had AFAIK about the benefits in that context.

I don't think you can intuit the results here to smaller rooms because you are tending to use a ray-tracing model and ray tracing doesn't apply below Schroeder.

Again I won't make any hard claims one way or the other...I'd like to see some data. But purely from an intuition perspective an omni sub loaded in a wall/wall/floor corner offers the benefits of cardioid bass (as it loads like giant horn instead of reflects) with increased output and no need for DSP. Geddes' position is that within a few ms (in a smaller room) the bass is everywhere anyway...to me that is more logical than applying ray-tracing here.

I've built (and measured polars for) some cardioid mid-bass speakers and from my experience it's unrealistic to expect an extremely tight pattern, or a full null at the rear...In a large space -12dB at the rear is significant, but in rooms smaller than 20-30 square meters, 90 degrees is only down a couple dB, and the bass in the front is still inverse square dispersion, it's bit hard for me to take as fact that cardioid bass in small rooms is always superior.

Above Schroeder is a different story IMO. My system is fully constant directivity above 100Hz (half fig8 and SEOS WG).
Old 14th February 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
An omni sub loaded in a wall/wall/floor corner offers the benefits of cardioid bass (as it loads like giant horn instead of reflects) with increased output and no need for DSP...
In a large space -12dB at the rear is significant...
it's bit hard for me to take as fact that cardioid bass in small rooms is always superior
thx for expanding, got your points - i'd like to comment just on a few words:
- no doubt it's nice to have speakers and room treatment that get you a smooth response, but it's easier to get there with dsp - always! even in an untreated room, it can show you within minutes what you'll need to correct with treatment besides/instead of dsp (it's also a cheap way of starting: any daw can help you make some decisions)
- my clients in live sound (or the monitor mixer) would kill me if i'd get just 12db of cancellation behind the subs! (but of course, with smaller setups that's maybe all you can get)
- you're right: cardioid sub is NOT always better in smaller rooms, but the smallest and easiest version with two identical subs can so quickly be achieved that it's worth spending those two minutes to find out whether you'll gain anything at all (or make things worse)

___


p.s. forgot to mention this: unless your sub/s has/have built in filtering, i think it's very handy to have higher order (and bandpass) filters available in dsp, even if you intend using multiple subs in different locations (as jens is suggesting)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 14th February 2018 at 03:01 PM.. Reason: another p.s.
Old 15th February 2018
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Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
it's easier to get there with dsp -
I personally agree with this, but I can get why it's not a perspective that is shared with everyone both on the studio design side and on the end user side...certainly there is a simple beauty to a professionally designed CR that doesn't *need* DSP. OTOH it's crazy to me to read threads in the high end section of the forum where people ditch systems they otherwise like because they don't care for the voicing (house curve) of the speakers...something that can be very easily changed. It's also nuts to me to so giant "monitor shootout" threads that include no measurements!

Also in more of a high end studio, the typical choice is to go with more expensive monitor controllers/amps/DACs/drivers or speakers. There isn't an overwhelming amount of DSP choices that even integrate well into this situation. IOW if someone has a Crane Song Avocet, and their Forssell or Lavry DACs etc, and they want to keep those, and add in a overall system management processor, it's going to be a very expensive proposition (DSP with multichannel digital IO, multi-ch DACs, multi-ch monitor control). Especially if maintaining 96k or 192k support is a priority.

I think there is a hole in the market here, it's crazy to me that someone would take the output of a Lavry and plug it into a Trinnov...

On the other hand if you have Thomas from Northward do your room, you plug your high end DAC into your high end amp and speakers and call it a day. I can definitely see the appeal there.
Old 15th February 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
I personally agree with this, but I can get why it's not a perspective that is shared with everyone both on the studio design side and on the end user side...certainly there is a simple beauty to a professionally designed CR that doesn't *need* DSP. OTOH it's crazy to me to read threads in the high end section of the forum where people ditch systems they otherwise like because they don't care for the voicing (house curve) of the speakers...something that can be very easily changed. It's also nuts to me to so giant "monitor shootout" threads that include no measurements!

Also in more of a high end studio, the typical choice is to go with more expensive monitor controllers/amps/DACs/drivers or speakers. There isn't an overwhelming amount of DSP choices that even integrate well into this situation. IOW if someone has a Crane Song Avocet, and their Forssell or Lavry DACs etc, and they want to keep those, and add in a overall system management processor, it's going to be a very expensive proposition (DSP with multichannel digital IO, multi-ch DACs, multi-ch monitor control). Especially if maintaining 96k or 192k support is a priority.

I think there is a hole in the market here, it's crazy to me that someone would take the output of a Lavry and plug it into a Trinnov...

On the other hand if you have Thomas from Northward do your room, you plug your high end DAC into your high end amp and speakers and call it a day. I can definitely see the appeal there.
very well observed!

in every field dealing with music, there are some rather crazy habits to be found - maybe be should start another thread and list a few of these things...
Old 15th February 2018
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Ahem

I am not familiar with Trinnov, but most DRC systems are Digital, coming before the DAC. There seems to be an attraction for putting up with speakers, often who's ambition is flat, radiating their wrong intentions into poorly treated rooms. A judiciously applied curve is a much better prospect. DD
Old 15th February 2018
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Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I am not familiar with Trinnov, but most DRC systems are Digital, coming before the DAC. There seems to be an attraction for putting up with speakers, often who's ambition is flat, radiating their wrong intentions into poorly treated rooms. A judiciously applied curve is a much better prospect. DD
I agree, but to my knowledge the only one with digital IO is the new minidsp ddrc-88d...or options in software, which often come with latency. There are some pro sound crossover LMS systems that can be fitted with digital IO or dante, but they are more of a *manual* version of DRC.

For someone with more of a analog or hyrbid-small console or LFAC workflow the issue is they are stuck with whatever ADA's are in the units. For some they also want the high end DACs for their monitoring (I'm not a big believer here myself, but I know people who are and respect their opinions).

The DDRC-88d looks pretty good, but the lowest latency it can do with DIRAC bypassed is 5ms, which can be problematic for many people (myself included).
Old 15th February 2018
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Problematic

Good points well made. I use a dual monitor path approach. Pure Mix Master goes to Headphones and CR Monitors. Monitors are tweaked using onboard Eq to be as close as possible to the DRC corrected response. No big shocks. No Latency or Eq. A second Monitor Buss goes through DRC, and yes the Latency is inconvenient, but workable.
As I have said before IMO DRC is a divisive and misleading term. What we are doing is speaker management. Given the digital inputs, DSP crossovers, etc. it seems to me the speaker is the best place to implement control.
Many of the speaker manufactures seem to agree. It would be helpful if they had an Open DRC policy. Allowing Dirac Live, REW, Sonarworks, ARC, or whatever your choice is to input filter parameters based on room measurement and Target Response.

DD
Old 15th February 2018
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thx guys for stretching a little bit into the dsp field!

do you happen to know why lake controllers (the most popular controller from the live sound world) didn't make it into the studio world? - integration of another piece of hardware isn't that difficult (analog, aes or dante), it runs at 96khz, latency is 1ms, it has almost an unlimited amount of filters, has matrices for multiple outputs etc.

clearly, it's not dsd, it's not quad sampling, but are so many people running at high sampling frequencies/other formats? i though the vast majority would be on pcm 44-96k
Old 16th February 2018
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Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
thx guys for stretching a little bit into the dsp field!

do you happen to know why lake controllers (the most popular controller from the live sound world) didn't make it into the studio world? - integration of another piece of hardware isn't that difficult (analog, aes or dante), it runs at 96khz, latency is 1ms, it has almost an unlimited amount of filters, has matrices for multiple outputs etc.

clearly, it's not dsd, it's not quad sampling, but are so many people running at high sampling frequencies/other formats? i though the vast majority would be on pcm 44-96k
I would guess the main reasons are price, lack of boutique converter specs, and integration hurdles. In the integration side, a lot of people believe that DACs need to be driven close to 0dBFS to get full resolution...technically this is of course correct, but I doubt if anyone would be able to hear the difference in a double blind with levels matched with 24bit converters.

Also in the music studio side people are often driven more by sexy/trendy products...the Lake is actually a pretty sweet looking box, but it's not known and trendy.

And finally you do still have a mix of analog purists, and those who only *tolerate* digital because they have to. That group obviously isn't trying to add more digital then they have to, especially to the monitor path.
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