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Knauf with foil backing or no backing?
Old 17th September 2020
  #181
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
That is so very true.... !

I find that all the time, either when I've said something and spent a long time thinking I was explaining my point clearly... and then my reply to other people when I've read their post a few times. I could have also saved time by being short and curt and still had the same level of understanding.

Anyway - we digress!
I also think I understand that being ask the same questions over and over about stuff that is already on this site can get frustrating. But I know from my experience there is so much info out there it gets hard to know when you are getting the right information so sometimes... when we don't know we are on the right track we can make people angry by questioning or ignoring that info offered by them. For me...I wanted to throw up some insulation and get it done. No idea of the science behind it and because I had a plan in place of when and how I was gonna do it I was initially being a bit stubborn in my thinking about it. I'm sure that would make people angry. I've been on this site for years but was scared to do more research about acoustics because because I couldn't wrap my head around any of it, felt embarrased and decided to just record and mix without anyway. For some reason this time I'm willing to learn and I find the responses from people very reasonable and welcoming.
Old 17th September 2020
  #182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Numbers on the left side of the graph are the absorbtion coeificient.
0 means it does not absorb any energy. 1 means it absorbs all of the energy.

Numbers on the bottom are frequencies. So you look at the absorbtion coeificient for whatever frequency you are concerned with to see if its effective.

Note that these measurements are taken in large reverberation chambers and can be a bit misleading as they pertain to small room acoustics. This is why i always model the material with the online PAC (porous absorber calculator).
Thank you Jason! And I got that Berhinger Room Measurement Microphone. Lucky I got a deal on it at the music store. When I do that measurement does the room have to be empty or can I do it with my desk and speakers in the room? I actually don't think I can totally empty the room but I could take some stuff out.
Old 17th September 2020
  #183
just wanted to summarize some learning from Master Handbook of Acoustics, chapter 9 +12; GERVAIS Home Recording Studio; Build it Like the Pros, chapter 9;

Hope I get get some of this write.

Masters Of Handbook of Acoustics

Like the way this one is written:

The law of conservation of energy. Energy can not be created or destroyed but can be changed in form. That just about make reincarnation of some form probable.

So its hard to get rid of unwanted sound energy in a room.

Sound is vibrating energy of air particles and can be transformed into heat.

Dissipation of sound energy is when the sound hit an object of acoustic material and and is reflected into the room or air with a heat loss at higher frequencies.
The sound that penetrates the material is refracted downward because of the materials density compared to the density of the air. There is heat loss with the energy because there is friction when the sound energy encounters the materiel. the sound energy becomes weaker as it moves along or is refracted more depending on what it encounters along the the way.

Pretty much sums up my experience shopping at for ROCKBOARD 40.

Refraction of sound is the change of sounds velocity when it hits sharp or other objects.

Sound travels faster through denser material.

Speed of sound is 1,130 feet per second. In ocean water the speed is 4,900 FT PER SEC

Temperature effects sound.

Sound travels Faster in warm air

sound travels faster in lower depths of the ocean because the water is denser.

Sound is used to measure global warming or change in ocean temperatures over years

Thats a little bit Thanks for the info Avare

Last edited by OLDNOOB; 17th September 2020 at 09:45 PM..
Old 17th September 2020
  #184
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
Thank you Jason! And I got that Berhinger Room Measurement Microphone. Lucky I got a deal on it at the music store. When I do that measurement does the room have to be empty or can I do it with my desk and speakers in the room? I actually don't think I can totally empty the room but I could take some stuff out.
Ideally measure the empty room to establish a baseline. That way you know if your treatment is effective and you know if your furniture is causing problems, but if its not practical to clear everything out then it is what it is
Old 17th September 2020
  #185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Ideally measure the empty room to establish a baseline. That way you know if your treatment is effective and you know if your furniture is causing problems, but if its not practical to clear everything out then it is what it is
Oky doke! See what I can do!
Thanks again
Old 17th September 2020
  #186
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
Haha.. Not speaking in sentences is always unclear.

It's funny because I've noticed you often end up having to say it twice, the second time in a full sentence (along with "what didn't you understand?") .
What is your qualification to question my responses? I have written thousands just on Gearslutz. You wrote in your preferred style and were misunderstood. I am still unclear as to whom your reference to Rod's thread about questions on his book is addressed.
Old 17th September 2020
  #187
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
I also think I understand that being ask the same questions over and over about stuff that is already on this site can get frustrating. But I know from my experience there is so much info out there it gets hard to know when you are getting the right information so sometimes... when we don't know we are on the right track we can make people angry by questioning or ignoring that info offered by them. For me...I wanted to throw up some insulation and get it done. No idea of the science behind it and because I had a plan in place of when and how I was gonna do it I was initially being a bit stubborn in my thinking about it. I'm sure that would make people angry. I've been on this site for years but was scared to do more research about acoustics because because I couldn't wrap my head around any of it, felt embarrased and decided to just record and mix without anyway. For some reason this time I'm willing to learn and I find the responses from people very reasonable and welcoming.
You expressed very well the frustrations of several experts who have tried to help here and have left.
Old 17th September 2020
  #188
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
You expressed very well the frustrations of several experts who have tried to help here and have left.
Sorry to hear this and hope that I haven't contributed to that.
Old 17th September 2020
  #189
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
Sorry to hear this and hope that I haven't contributed to that.
You did not.

Please check your pmail.
Old 18th September 2020
  #190
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
You did not.

Please check your pmail.
Sorry I don't see PM
Old 18th September 2020
  #191
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
Oky doke! See what I can do!
Thanks again
His answer was good.

To add to it, I'll point out that your monitoring is the sum of everything, the room, furniture, treatments, speaker choice, positioning, monitoring EQ etc.

So if you see a problem, having the baseline empty room may help you figure out whether it's been there all along or if it's one you created.

And, shooting each step when you change something, can let you know what effect each thing you've done has had. That can give you an idea of what to undo, or what to do more of when trying to fix certain problems.
Old 18th September 2020
  #192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
His answer was good.

To add to it, I'll point out that your monitoring is the sum of everything, the room, furniture, treatments, speaker choice, positioning, monitoring EQ etc.

So if you see a problem, having the baseline empty room may help you figure out whether it's been there all along or if it's one you created.

And, shooting each step when you change something, can let you know what effect each thing you've done has had. That can give you an idea of what to undo, or what to do more of when trying to fix certain problems.
Well thank you Mike,
When you say shooting, do you mean taking photos? It sounds like you are saying take measurements with the room as it is and then empty. Maybe do that and then take a measurement with each piece of furniture as It is put back into the room and then a measurement of the room with all the stuff back in it?

When you say EQ are talking about when I doing the measurements with REW?
Old 18th September 2020
  #193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Ideally measure the empty room to establish a baseline. That way you know if your treatment is effective and you know if your furniture is causing problems, but if its not practical to clear everything out then it is what it is
Jason,
Should my monitors be up at the wall where Avare suggested for this measurement? I assuming in a position that they will be in for the mixing.
Old 18th September 2020
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
Jason,
Should my monitors be up at the wall where Avare suggested for this measurement? I assuming in a position that they will be in for the mixing.
Yes sir
Old 18th September 2020
  #195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Yes sir
Any post I should read how to set up REW properly?
Old 18th September 2020
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
Any post I should read how to set up REW properly?
https://www.digistar.cl/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=5
Old 18th September 2020
  #197
Thank you ,sir.
Old 18th September 2020
  #198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Made me laugh. First thing I read on this article.

Which mic should you buy? I do NOT recommend the Behringer ECM8000 mic for this, as I've heard too many sad stories about people getting faulty mics, including my own personal experience.

Oh well. You think I should take the one I bought back?
Old 18th September 2020
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
Made me laugh. First thing I read on this article.

Which mic should you buy? I do NOT recommend the Behringer ECM8000 mic for this, as I've heard too many sad stories about people getting faulty mics, including my own personal experience.

Oh well. You think I should take the one I bought back?
Give it a try
Old 18th September 2020
  #200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Give it a try
Oky doke.πŸ˜·πŸ‘
Old 18th September 2020
  #201
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
Oky doke.😷👍
For the room measurement test I have a question about monitor placement. Avare and you suggested putting the monitors against the wall but I'm not sure if you meant up against the corners where the SAFE N SOUND wedges would be or more against the flat part of the front wall ?
I made some diagrams to hopefully make the question easier to understand.

I labeled them Measurement Question A and B
Attached Thumbnails
Knauf with foil backing or no backing?-room-measurement-set-up-question-.jpg   Knauf with foil backing or no backing?-room-measurement-set-up-question-b.jpg  
Old 18th September 2020
  #202
I found this?

There is a procedural way to do it. An RTA helps during this process too though. A program like Room EQ Wizard helps tremendously as it allows you to see frequency response, decay times, waterfalls, impulse response, etc. while also proving the RTA function. Can't beat it for free...

Push speakers into the corners. This maximally excites the room modes and gain.

Slide the mic back and forth til you find the spot with the smoothest response, fewest nulls, pushes problems as high in frequency as possible, etc.

Once you have that spot, mark it and put the mic there. Then pull the speakers out to a starting point of an equilateral triangle and measure again as a baseline.

From there, move the speakers forward/backward OR farther apart, closer together. This let's you asses the impact of boundary interactions (SBIR). Keep moving until you find the best spot and leaves items that are known quantities and are treatable.

Notice I said OR. It is important to always change only one thing at a time or you will not know which change made what differences.

Another option is a program called CARA. It requires that you model your room and all of it's surfaces. You then define the areas that are acceptable for you to place your seating and speakers and let it rip. It will chug for a while and come up with the best place for everything. This can take quite a bit of time to compute depending on the complexity of the room, how much information you want, the speed of your computer, etc.

I've just purchased this program and as time permits am starting to do my own known room as a baseline.

Bryan

Or maybe like this without corner traps?
Attached Thumbnails
Knauf with foil backing or no backing?-monitor-placement-test-no-corners.jpg  
Old 18th September 2020
  #203
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
I found this?

There is a procedural way to do it. An RTA helps during this process too though. A program like Room EQ Wizard helps tremendously as it allows you to see frequency response, decay times, waterfalls, impulse response, etc. while also proving the RTA function. Can't beat it for free...

Push speakers into the corners. This maximally excites the room modes and gain.

Slide the mic back and forth til you find the spot with the smoothest response, fewest nulls, pushes problems as high in frequency as possible, etc.

Once you have that spot, mark it and put the mic there. Then pull the speakers out to a starting point of an equilateral triangle and measure again as a baseline.

From there, move the speakers forward/backward OR farther apart, closer together. This let's you asses the impact of boundary interactions (SBIR). Keep moving until you find the best spot and leaves items that are known quantities and are treatable.

Notice I said OR. It is important to always change only one thing at a time or you will not know which change made what differences.

Another option is a program called CARA. It requires that you model your room and all of it's surfaces. You then define the areas that are acceptable for you to place your seating and speakers and let it rip. It will chug for a while and come up with the best place for everything. This can take quite a bit of time to compute depending on the complexity of the room, how much information you want, the speed of your computer, etc.

I've just purchased this program and as time permits am starting to do my own known room as a baseline.

Bryan

Or maybe like this without corner traps?
You want a subwoofer in one corner mic in opposite corner to confirm measures modes against predicted like this:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/atta...room-3x4x5.jpg


In the REW room simulator you can model your room to a point with speaker, subwoofer(s) and listener positions and see the responses.
Old 18th September 2020
  #204
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
You want a subwoofer in one corner mic in opposite corner to confirm measures modes against predicted like this:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/atta...room-3x4x5.jpg


In the REW room simulator you can model your room to a point with speaker, subwoofer(s) and listener positions and see the responses.
Won't be doin that. Don't have a subwoofer.
Old 19th September 2020
  #205
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
For the room measurement test I have a question about monitor placement. Avare and you suggested putting the monitors against the wall but I'm not sure if you meant up against the corners where the SAFE N SOUND wedges would be or more against the flat part of the front wall ?
I made some diagrams to hopefully make the question easier to understand.

I labeled them Measurement Question A and B
Yes, lol
Old 19th September 2020
  #206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Yes, lol
Sorry Jason,

Which one is the yes. The wall or in front of the corners? A or B drawing? I know you suggested in the wall in the corner but I'm not sure about that yet?
Attached Thumbnails
Knauf with foil backing or no backing?-room-measurement-set-up-question-b.jpg   Knauf with foil backing or no backing?-room-measurement-set-up-question-.jpg  
Old 19th September 2020
  #207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Yes, lol
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/atta...701_225121.jpg
Just looked up some of your stuff. Damn smart way to do desk and racks. Absorbers! Pretty handle with building too..
Old 19th September 2020
  #208
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
Sorry Jason,

Which one is the yes. The wall or in front of the corners? A or B drawing? I know you suggested in the wall in the corner but I'm not sure about that yet?
Yes to both, lol. Start with the monitor in the corner (just one), and the mic at 38%, do a sweep, mark the position of the speaker, move the monitor a few cm down the wall, sweep, mark that spot, repeat, look for the best spot. Once you found it move the mic forward/back a few cm at a time till you find a good spot, one you have the two, add the other speaker to make a equilateral triangle
Old 19th September 2020
  #209
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDNOOB View Post
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/atta...701_225121.jpg
Just looked up some of your stuff. Damn smart way to do desk and racks. Absorbers! Pretty handle with building too..
Theres a download link for my entire studio build plans in that thread. You can open it in sketchup and have it all. Everything is to scale. I built it all digitally first, then built it for real. No guessing, well almost.
Old 19th September 2020
  #210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Theres a download link for my entire studio build plans in that thread. You can open it in sketchup and have it all. Everything is to scale. I built it all digitally first, then built it for real. No guessing, well almost.
There is always some guessing I think. Maybe thats whats keeps us interested? Who Know. Sure is beautiful work I will check out>
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