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Mass loaded vinyl - sound barrier
Old 15th June 2017
  #1
Gear Head
 

Mass loaded vinyl - sound barrier

Hi im tryin to sound proof my room or reduce noise transmiting as much as possible. someoone recommended me to use MLV aka mass loaded vinyl. Can anyone here recommed me a good brand or where i can buy this stuff ? I live in canada and cant seem to find anythings like this.
Old 15th June 2017
  #2
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There is no advantage to using MLV in a wall. Regular gypsum is about the cheapest. If you want to add more than just Gypsum board use Green Glue between layers of gypsum board.

Andre
Old 16th June 2017
  #3
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No advantage per say, as an individual component, but used in combination with other techniques and materials it will have a substantial cumulative effect on sound transmission loss. If you just glue MLV to drywall and drywall over that, it wont have much effect. If you build out your wall with drywall, MLV, decoupling, insulation, drywall, Green Glue, drywall, etc... etc... you will get much better results, but it takes a lot of additional materials and is not cheap in terms of cost or labor...Soundproofing San Francisco | Soundproofing | West Coast Sound Solutions
for MLV and Green Glue. Recording Studio Designer, Builder, Remodel, Los Angeles Soundproofing, Home Studios Consultant, Acoustic Products for MLV and Quiet Glue Pro Both have helped me out and provide expertise, materials and pro support.
Light
Temple
Old 16th June 2017
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light View Post
No advantage per say, as an individual component, but used in combination with other techniques and materials it will have a substantial cumulative effect on sound transmission loss. If you just glue MLV to drywall and drywall over that, it wont have much effect. If you build out your wall with drywall, MLV, decoupling, insulation, drywall, Green Glue, drywall, etc... etc... you will get much better results, but it takes a lot of additional materials and is not cheap in terms of cost or labor...Soundproofing San Francisco | Soundproofing | West Coast Sound Solutions
for MLV and Green Glue. Recording Studio Designer, Builder, Remodel, Los Angeles Soundproofing, Home Studios Consultant, Acoustic Products for MLV and Quiet Glue Pro Both have helped me out and provide expertise, materials and pro support.
Light
Temple
I hate to call you out on this, but your statements about MLV are completely misleading and false. Perhaps you didn't know that and are ignorant of the facts.

I'll just make this statement and you can look up the data: MLV MUST be used LIMP. If you constrain it in any way, it becomes a very expensive small mass and ridiculously expensive compared to drywall or any other cheap mass.

We have used it to sound-proof RVs and mobile recording rigs. But this entails some very critical details and applications. Some designers have used it in recording studios, but it is always suspended limp between partitions and/or IS the partition. But it's always used limp.

I have a few documents on my resources page that clear this up.
"Sound-Proofing: The Quest"
and
"How To Find How Much Isolation You Need"

All the best! Please don't take offence.. I comment in the interest of truth and science.

Cheers,
John
Old 16th June 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
We have used it to sound-proof RVs and mobile recording rigs. But this entails some very critical details and applications.
That would be the only advantage of MLV for isolation, mass per depth, which in close quarters like autos is at a premium. In studio design, the depth difference between 5mm MLV and 19mm drywall isn't so crucial, but the cost difference is.
EDIT: That, and it's flexible and conforms to irregular shapes.
Old 17th June 2017
  #6
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@ JHBrandt, the hate is all yours dude, I say what I say based on actual build and experience. You're perhaps right about it being used limp, as in attached to the faces of studs, I happen to be using it both ways: Constrained and limp.Perhaps this is why it has made a real difference to the amount of transmission loss in my wall. I do believe it's true purpose is to cancel vibration, and in my case has done a noticeable amount of it. I did a considerable amount of research before deciding on it's use, and I have to say I will be using more of it in the near future. 2lb is much more difficult to work with but better for achieving it's intended purpose.
Light

Temple
Old 17th June 2017
  #7
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BTW, I read both of your resource documents and they are very comprehensive and technically detailed.
Old 17th June 2017
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPower View Post
That would be the only advantage of MLV for isolation, mass per depth, which in close quarters like autos is at a premium. In studio design, the depth difference between 5mm MLV and 19mm drywall isn't so crucial, but the cost difference is.
EDIT: That, and it's flexible and conforms to irregular shapes.
I believe that you have it confused with a CLDM. Constrained layer damping. They also use a CLDM in aircraft. MLV can 'help' with sound transmission loss and panel damping when applied directly to a metal panel such as a car body or a metal HVAC duct, or even a thin computer case. To perform as designed, it must be used suspended and limp as in a sheet hanging on a clothes line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light View Post
@ JHBrandt, the hate is all yours dude, I say what I say based on actual build and experience. You're perhaps right about it being used limp, as in attached to the faces of studs, I happen to be using it both ways: Constrained and limp.Perhaps this is why it has made a real difference to the amount of transmission loss in my wall. I do believe it's true purpose is to cancel vibration, and in my case has done a noticeable amount of it. I did a considerable amount of research before deciding on it's use, and I have to say I will be using more of it in the near future. 2lb is much more difficult to work with but better for achieving it's intended purpose.
Light

Temple
Temple,

It doesn't work as designed when it is constrained and IF you have done any testing it will confirm what I have stated. Please reconsider revising your techniques. They are not wise or ethical.
NOTE: I do not hate... hate belongs to the dark side, my young apprentice.

Please observe the scientific process. Science is not about standing your ground. If you would like to write to me, I'm happy to help. We could have Skype conference.
I place as many documents and calculators on my resources page as possible to promote the advancement of acoustics and to SHARE the knowlege.
I do this NOT to promote myself, but to promote YOU and help eliminate the spread of false information. This inevitably results in better, more cost-effective treatment in studios around the world. Designers and DIYers alike will have more accurate tools to work with, instead of myths and misinformation that is promoted by the marketers of these good products.

There is nothing inherintly wrong with any certain product. But to apply any product as a solution to a problem requires knowlege of the products technical specification as well as the solution techniques involved. This requires substantial DATA... from testing.
--Many times we can test on our own and find information that confirms our prejudices. This is a dangerous practice.. well, dangerous if you are interested in the truth.

Talk to you soon.
Cheers,
John
Old 17th June 2017
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
I believe that you have it confused with a CLDM.
Hi John, I'm not sure what the "it" is that you're referring to here. MLV? If so, no, I'm aware of the difference in application.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
Constrained layer damping. They also use a CLDM in aircraft. MLV can 'help' with sound transmission loss and panel damping when applied directly to a metal panel such as a car body or a metal HVAC duct, or even a thin computer case. To perform as designed, it must be used suspended and limp as in a sheet hanging on a clothes line.
I'm am confused here however, as MLV is used as sound barrier in many applications directly applied to a shell and sealed with adhesive to create a sound barrier, which is exactly as is intended. When you say to perform as designed (suspended and limp), what are you referring to?
Old 17th June 2017
  #10
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jhbrandt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPower View Post
I'm am confused here however, as MLV is used as sound barrier in many applications directly applied to a shell and sealed with adhesive to create a sound barrier, which is exactly as is intended. When you say to perform as designed (suspended and limp), what are you referring to?
The application to which you are refering does two things;
1. adds DAMPING and
2. adds mass.
Since it can be applied with adhesive and will form to the surface it will be applied to, it is very effective here. However, it does not, CAN NOT, perform better than any other product of the same mass - IN THIS APPLICATION.

If one were to cover all the wall studs in a room build with MLV and then proceed to place gypsum board over it or to sandwich the MLV between two sheets of gypsum board, or plywood, or any other rigid product... it would render the 'special abilities' of the Mass Loaded Vinyl null and void. These special properties are that it is LIMP and will perform a physical energy conversion when struck with sound waves/energy. Now, when constrained in a non-limp fashion, MLV does NOT perform any better than Gypsum Board, wood, stucco, or any other substance of the same mass. MLV when used in this way would be a very, very expensive mass.
(I'm trying to save you guys MONEY! ok?)

Cheers,
John
Old 17th June 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
The application to which you are refering does two things;
1. adds DAMPING and
2. adds mass.
Since it can be applied with adhesive and will form to the surface it will be applied to, it is very effective here. However, it does not, CAN NOT, perform better than any other product of the same mass - IN THIS APPLICATION.

If one were to cover all the wall studs in a room build with MLV and then proceed to place gypsum board over it or to sandwich the MLV between two sheets of gypsum board, or plywood, or any other rigid product... it would render the 'special abilities' of the Mass Loaded Vinyl null and void. These special properties are that it is LIMP and will perform a physical energy conversion when struck with sound waves/energy. Now, when constrained in a non-limp fashion, MLV does NOT perform any better than Gypsum Board, wood, stucco, or any other substance of the same mass. MLV when used in this way would be a very, very expensive mass.
(I'm trying to save you guys MONEY! ok?)

Cheers,
John
Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here. I mentioned only the slight advantage MLV has re: mass vs depth, and flexibility, over traditional material such as drywall, which has applications in vehicle design, but not so much in studios... Not sure what you're on about with my responses. I never recommended it in that application.
Old 18th June 2017
  #12
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
I believe that you have it confused with a CLDM. Constrained layer damping. They also use a CLDM in aircraft. MLV can 'help' with sound transmission loss and panel damping when applied directly to a metal panel such as a car body or a metal HVAC duct, or even a thin computer case. To perform as designed, it must be used suspended and limp as in a sheet hanging on a clothes line.



Temple,

It doesn't work as designed when it is constrained and IF you have done any testing it will confirm what I have stated. Please reconsider revising your techniques. They are not wise or ethical.

I am at an utter loss to understand how ETHICS plays any part in this discussion? Wisdom is wasted on the young and inexperienced and I am neither.Reconsidered I have and am eagerly awaiting your reply.

NOTE: I do not hate... hate belongs to the dark side, my young apprentice.

With all due respect, you are LYING to yourself, and to me.
ALL HATE. Every single human being on this earth
Without exception, to the degree any of us show it, manifest it, or express it is in direct correlation to the amount of grace we possess at any given time and is indeed the only reason for our continued advancement and progress.We have had to learn to conceal it, suppress it, redirect it, and transform it,
but none have learned to eliminate it. NONE. Human that is.

Please observe the scientific process. Science is not about standing your ground. If you would like to write to me, I'm happy to help. We could have Skype conference.
I place as many documents and calculators on my resources page as possible to promote the advancement of acoustics and to SHARE the knowledge.
I do this NOT to promote myself, but to promote YOU and help eliminate the spread of false information. This inevitably results in better, more cost-effective treatment in studios around the world. Designers and DIYers alike will have more accurate tools to work with, instead of myths and misinformation that is promoted by the marketers of these good products.

There is nothing inherently wrong with any certain product. But to apply any product as a solution to a problem requires knowledge of the products technical specification as well as the solution techniques involved. This requires substantial DATA... from testing.
--Many times we can test on our own and find information that confirms our prejudices. This is a dangerous practice.. well, dangerous if you are interested in the truth.

Talk to you soon.
Cheers,
John
Being a dangerous man in a dangerous place is nothing new to me, as
I am always interested in truth, in whatever form it takes, so I would be curious to know how you would use, say,a roll of 25' x 4.5' x 1/8" MLV?
As you suggest it is best { if I understand correctly} being suspended and unattached, by what means would you secure it to whatever part of a build you were using it on? I guess this requires a leap of faith on your part that you would even use such an inferior material but humor me this once if you would be so kind.

Light

Temple
Old 18th June 2017
  #13
Gear Addict
 

John uses the MLV as a membrane trap. The MLV replaces the ususal plywood panel in this case, installed limp/floppy (not tensioned as a drumskin) over an air tight box frame. He has some you tube videos on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWVgMZRjB4Y There are some more videos as well. His home page is better when one needs details / construction measurements and sizes.

(The mass/area unit + air space behind the membrane determine the resonance frequency of the trap. Addition of some insulation behind the MLV (close but not touching it) will broaden the absorbers frequency range, while at the same time lower its peak absorbtion.)
Old 18th June 2017
  #14
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jhbrandt's Avatar
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

To answer the question above, "I would be curious to know how you would use, say,a roll of 25' x 4.5' x 1/8" MLV? As you suggest it is best { if I understand correctly} being suspended and unattached, by what means would you secure it to whatever part of a build you were using it on? ... that you would even use such an inferior material but humor me this once if you would be so kind."
Firstly, MLV is not inferior. It is the technique with which it is used that causes it to be nearly useless.
I show, in the attached drawing {link}, how to properly use Mass Loaded Vinyl for sound-proofing and improved LF transmission loss.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/amj6hcl12f...nique.pdf?dl=0
Normally, this technique is not necessary and I rarely use it, as I have said, only for mobile sound-proofing installations.

Question everything. Especially people who want you to spend a lot of money when common sense tells you otherwise. Beware of unscrupulous merchants.

All the best!
TomcaTT87, I think you got your money's worth on this thread. LOL
Cheers,
John
Old 18th June 2017
  #15
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 

Thanks, that confirms the construction technique, I've already used. Going forward...I'll know what not to do...
Too many tools and not enough tirade...
Light

Temple
Old 7th December 2017
  #16
Gear Head
 

Hey John,

Thanks for the resources. I've looked at your attached drawing describing how to properly use MLV, and read alot of your posts here and others regarding MLV, but I am still trying to find an answer for something I've been wondering about:

If I take a slab of Owens 703, and cut a piece of mass loaded vinyl of the same size and glue it to the back of the 703, leaving the MLV on the back exposed (not touching anything), would that be effective to help in sound absorption?

Say if I stick that slab in a window, so the absorption would be in this order from the front of the 703 (the part without MLV, which is glued to the back) to the window:

703-->MLV (glued onto back of 703 but exposed to air)---> air gap (between MLV and actual window glass) ----> glass/window.

Considering I have a good seal on that, do you think that would help to reduce sound escaping the window? If anyone else wants to chime in then please do! Thanks in advance
Old 20th December 2017
  #17
Gear Head
 

Bump for anyone else's thoughts on the above post??
Old 20th December 2017
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddievanwailin View Post
If I take a slab of Owens 703, and cut a piece of mass loaded vinyl of the same size and glue it to the back of the 703, leaving the MLV on the back exposed (not touching anything), would that be effective to help in sound absorption?

Say if I stick that slab in a window, so the absorption would be in this order from the front of the 703 (the part without MLV, which is glued to the back) to the window:

703-->MLV (glued onto back of 703 but exposed to air)---> air gap (between MLV and actual window glass) ----> glass/window.
limp mass is not glued.
It isn't also about being "exposed to air". In John's plans, the MLV is between the walls with soft insulation on both sides -- but it is free to move. It is not glued to the insulation.
it's limp -- hanging. that's it. Doing anything else impedes its performance.

If you want to do what you are thinking, put the OC703 mounted to a frame, in the air gap hang the MLV suspended only from the top. Or if the frame around the 703 is strong enough and the full depth of the 703, mount the top edge of the MLV to the frame
Old 20th December 2017
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddievanwailin View Post
Considering I have a good seal on that, do you think that would help to reduce sound escaping the window? If anyone else wants to chime in then please do! Thanks in advance
Also, if the point is to keep the sound from going out, ignore the OC703. That's not what it is used for. You just need heavy mass and an air gap to the next leaf (the window glass.) Seal over the window with 5/8 drywall double layer leaving an air gap between the drywall and the window glass. That's 4.6 lbs/ft2 vs 2 lbs/ft2 for MLV. The OC703 does absolutely nothing for your application.
Old 10th April 2018
  #20
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bit mangler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
There is no advantage to using MLV in a wall. Regular gypsum is about the cheapest. If you want to add more than just Gypsum board use Green Glue between layers of gypsum board.

Andre
Andre - 3 well known Acousticians use it quite extensively

1. Newell - calls it deadsheet and the commercial name is PKB2 made by a company called Acustica . In his book he does not refer to sealing of any sort and so he must be using it either as a (a) anti-resonate mechanism or (b) as a noise barrier .

1. Roger D Arcy : All dimensions are given in his book and he explicitly calls for sealing the enclosure . Definitely using it as a membrane absorber .

3. Thomas : I've seen the Gearslutz builds and he uses it . Ofcourse for secrecy reasons the pictures are blanked in the MLV area . In the Amsterdam build , I saw the Contracter cutting it almost full length top to bottom and so I think it encloses the entire wall . There was just a small window where you could see the Chipoard-MLV-Drywall configuration but definitely looked like a sandwich to me. The commercial name is Royal Gum

I don't see Mr.Newell using some material if it is really not necessary . He is a very practical guy . In a recent NE build which was documented in GS , the studio owner was able to source all the material in his country but ended up importing the MLV . It was called Danusa . The PKB2 Mr.Newell refers to a 2.5mm MLV with a adhesive backing with a thin layer of fiberglass added.

So Im not sure when you say there is no advantage
Old 10th April 2018
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bit mangler View Post
Andre - 3 well known Acousticians use it quite extensively

1. Newell - calls it deadsheet and the commercial name is PKB2 made by a company called Acustica

1. Roger D Arcy : All dimensions are given in his book and he explicitly calls for sealing the enclosure . Definitely using it as a membrane absorber .

3. Thomas : The commercial name is Royal Gum

I don't see Mr.Newell using some material if it is really not necessary . He is a very practical guy . In a recent NE build which was documented in GS , the studio owner was able to source all the material in his country but ended up importing the MLV . It was called Danusa . The PKB2 Mr.Newell refers to a 2.5mm MLV with a adhesive backing with a thin layer of fiberglass added.

So Im not sure when you say there is no advantage
I am not clear on your relating the PKB-2 and "Royal Gum" to MLV. PKB-2 (from the Acustica PKB-2 web page) "The insulating compound PKB-2 is constituted by a base sheet of polymers together with a layer of porous material based on textile fibers."

All I could find about Royal Gum is roofing materials. It may within the page but I could find no refernce to MLV.

Clarification on the information that you are presenting is required.

Andre
Old 11th April 2018
  #22
Deleted 3cb98a6
Guest
Who cares what it does!
Its vinyl and very unfriendly for the environment.

Stick to more sustainable materials please
Old 11th April 2018
  #23
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bit mangler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
I am not clear on your relating the PKB-2 and "Royal Gum" to MLV. PKB-2 (from the Acustica PKB-2 web page) "The insulating compound PKB-2 is constituted by a base sheet of polymers together with a layer of porous material based on textile fibers."

All I could find about Royal Gum is roofing materials. It may within the page but I could find no refernce to MLV.

Clarification on the information that you are presenting is required.

Andre
I was providing information about the commercial name of MLVs used by various designers. For example PKB-2 is a name used in the Newell book without any reference . So that is the MLV or "deadsheet" that he is using .
Pretty sure that it was a roofing material ( bituminous) that was used as an MLV for the Northward build.
Let me know if you need the name of the material that D Arcy is using - I have to check it in his book.
Old 11th April 2018
  #24
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bit mangler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pief View Post
Who cares what it does!
All the people reading this thread except you
Last I checked this was a forum about studio acoustics where people discuss how materials are being used to control sound energy
Old 12th April 2018
  #25
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 

Gandalf is old Gandalf is wise,
Gandalf lives between the skies...

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 12th April 2018
  #26
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bit mangler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light View Post
Gandalf is old Gandalf is wise,
Gandalf lives between the skies...

YYMV

Light

Temple
Gandalf is old
MLVs have confused him
Gandalf likes Avare
Probably he is also confused
Old 12th April 2018
  #27
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bit mangler View Post
I was providing information about the commercial name of MLVs used by various designers.
The materials you have named are not MLVs. I have identified the materials as best as possible. The PKB-2 i quoted the manufacturer's website. On the Royal Gum I could not find MLV like product on their website.

Theapplicaions that you detailed are obviously not using the materials as MLV.
Re-read ,or is read, JH Brandt's extensive posts in this thread for MLV use.


Quote:
Let me know if you need the name of the material that D Arcy is using - I have to check it in his book.
Please do. The information is appreciated.


Respectfully,
Andre
Old 13th April 2018
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
The materials you have named are not MLVs
You are correct . Technically they are not MLVs but are we not splitting hairs over semantics?

Limp Mass Membrane = Deadsheet = PKB2 =MLV = Noise barrier mat

They are all technically limp mass membranes famous acousticians are using with different implementation styles and manufacturers to suit the country of build



Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
There is no advantage to using MLV in a wall
Dont you think that is a very sweeping generalization given that I have provided proof that many acousticians are using limp mass membranes in almost every build where they also probably could have substituted with sheetrock but are consistently not?

Did you mean to say there is no advantage to MLVs but Limp mass membranes are OK ( maybe because of cost difference) . Here I refer to the MLV in its classical definition of vinyl loaded with barium or calcium salts

Andre - please note that I have utmost respect for you and I agree with probably 99% of what you say . This was definitely an "outlier" statement which kept bothering me and I really wanted to clear this up
Hopefully Thomas or Nuisance ( Joules Newell) can chime in here

The link for the possible material in the Northward build for AMS Mastering
Royalgum-APP (BICOM) rol (7,5 x 1 m) 470 K14 | Warmteservice

Roger's book is with my architect . Will post details as soon as I receive it
Old 13th April 2018
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bit mangler View Post
Did you mean to say there is no advantage to MLVs but Limp mass membranes are OK ( maybe because of cost difference) . Here I refer to the MLV in its classical definition of vinyl loaded with barium or calcium salts
I wrote MLV and I meant MLV. Exactly what the acronym means. I did not write anything about any other material, or their applications.

Quote:
The link for the possible material in the Northward build for AMS Mastering
Royalgum-APP (BICOM) rol (7,5 x 1 m) 470 K14 | Warmteservice

Roger's book is with my architect . Will post details as soon as I receive it
Thank youause you now understood my senet for the link and update on the book. It may be moot because yecause you undestand what I wrote now.

Well damped,
Andre
Old 13th April 2018
  #30
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Northward's Avatar
We use it as Constraint layer damping. Vibrations control.
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