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Built My First Treated Room - Feedback Appreciated
Old 3rd July 2016
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Built My First Treated Room - Feedback Appreciated

Hello everyone,
I would like to share with you my newly finished room and I graciously ask for your feedback on my frequency response, waterfall & .mdat file. My concern is whether the measurements are within a respectable average range, or if they just flat out stink.

Thanks GIK Acoustics for making this video tutorial. It was a time saver. (Room EQ Wizard Tutorial - GIK Acoustics)

Details
17'L x 9'W x 8'H
4 inch 703 Custom Panels on every wall w/ 4inch Gap (12 Total)
6' x 4' Ceiling Cloud, 4inches Thick (703)
4 Superchunks (21inch wide) in corners w/ Pink Fluffy (R-30) & Kraft Paper applied
Tile Floor
Wood Ceiling
Two Sliding Glass Doors: One left & one right.

Monitors
Two Yamaha HS8's w/ Isoacoustics stands

Sidenote: I do have six unused 2inch 703 panels which I can use to improve the room further. But in what manner?

Room Images
Front Wall: https://db.tt/rHF4IJMu
Back Wall: https://db.tt/4TspSFnv

REW Files
Frequency Response: https://db.tt/k9XbGd58
Waterfall: https://db.tt/g001RpMF
Mdat file: https://db.tt/sETNggrW

--------------------------------------------------------------

Updated REW Files (07/06/16) (All new measurements taken from 5.6' from front wall)
Frequency Response Overlay (1.5' vs 5.6', Both speakers): https://db.tt/ygCRQ3ZE
Left Speaker: https://db.tt/LS1azmby
Right Speaker: https://db.tt/KV3mtyKY
Waterfall: https://db.tt/R2bFqMGD
Mdat file: https://db.tt/lVs6Y1cs

Thank you,
Robert

Last edited by RobbyRob; 3rd July 2016 at 08:25 PM.. Reason: Added files
Old 5th July 2016
  #2
Lives for gear
In the frequency graph and the waterfall there is a giant hole at 90hz. That is concerning. It will be difficult for you to have mixes that translate when you have such a deep hole centered at a frequency that will be heard on a wide segment of home and car speakers. Below that, your speaker response seems to rise and stay up all the way to the bottom. Are your speakers that good, or do you have something else going on(traffic or machine rumble, etc).

In your front view I see a speaker on the right where the floor and wall meet. Is it a sub? Was it on during the test? If so, did you try reversing the phase on the sub to see if the hole filled in?
Old 5th July 2016
  #3
Lives for gear
Is this with both speakers playing? And a sub? Looking at the mdat, it looks like comb filtering up top with the big dip at 7k. But the impulse doesn't seem to show two peaks so not sure what's going on there.
Old 5th July 2016
  #4
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
The treatment is for sure helping A LOT so hats off to that part. Can you retest? I would like to see the room response with one speaker at a time, with and without the sub then both speakers without the sub. I think things are looking pretty good, but I think you may need to turn down your sub. Needless to say, how are your mixes translating when you listen out of the room? If no major surprises (lack of low end, reverb tails odd, to much low end and so on) than you might just need a few minor changes.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Swurveman's Avatar
I would say this to anybody who cannot discern "whether the measurements are within a respectable average range, or if they just flat out stink." :

Unless you have the time and inclination to want to learn and implement room acoustics- a long and laborious process involving absorption and diffusion including tuned devices to react to specific frequencies- hire an Acoustician.

I found out that I did not have the time or the expertise to go the DIY route. I spent a lot of time and money trying the DIY route and got a result that wasn't good enough for me. So, what I built and bought-mostly bass traps- is going to be sold and I'm starting over.

I wish I would have hired an Acoustician in the beginning. I would be better off had I done so. I spent tens of thousands of dollars on gear, but it doesn't matter if you don't have the room tuned properly and every room is different. I spent time building bass traps, but found that I did not have the time, inclination or talent to become an expert on acoustics to go to the next level of tuning my room.

Think about this before you go the DIY route. Look at the diffusor threads. Do you have the tools to do this? Do you have the expertise to build them? Do you have the time to study room acoustics, which beyond learning how to build acoustic solutions (panels, diffusors etc) goes to being able to properly understand testing results and troubleshoot specific frequency problems?

This is not easy stuff.
Old 6th July 2016
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
In the frequency graph and the waterfall there is a giant hole at 90hz. That is concerning. It will be difficult for you to have mixes that translate when you have such a deep hole centered at a frequency that will be heard on a wide segment of home and car speakers. Below that, your speaker response seems to rise and stay up all the way to the bottom. Are your speakers that good, or do you have something else going on(traffic or machine rumble, etc).

In your front view I see a speaker on the right where the floor and wall meet. Is it a sub? Was it on during the test? If so, did you try reversing the phase on the sub to see if the hole filled in?
I moved my desk in 0.5' increments from the front wall until I improved my frequency response (Lowest Dip & Peak not farther than 12db). By moving 5.6' from the front wall, I was able to reduce the 90db drop and tame my low end, however, I introduced a dip at 55hz.

I currently don't have a subwoofer with my set-up. I'm using two Yamaha HS8 monitors upside down with isoacoustic stands. I apologize for the confusion with the M-audio monitor down to the right in the picture. That is currently not being used.
Old 6th July 2016
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Is this with both speakers playing? And a sub? Looking at the mdat, it looks like comb filtering up top with the big dip at 7k. But the impulse doesn't seem to show two peaks so not sure what's going on there.
Only both speakers playing with no sub and it seems that I have improved the upper end with the move.
Old 6th July 2016
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Not too bad, but you have threee strong reflections within the first 4-5 ms. Try to get them below -20 dB or so. They were not as loud in the first measurements.

The overall frequency response seems slightly tilted towards the higher frequencies instead of the lower ones.
Old 6th July 2016
  #9
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
The treatment is for sure helping A LOT so hats off to that part. Can you retest? I would like to see the room response with one speaker at a time, with and without the sub then both speakers without the sub. I think things are looking pretty good, but I think you may need to turn down your sub. Needless to say, how are your mixes translating when you listen out of the room? If no major surprises (lack of low end, reverb tails odd, to much low end and so on) than you might just need a few minor changes.
Thanks Glenn, I'm glad the panels are doing their job. In case anyone is wondering, I built them using the plans from homestudioguy.com, including the desk.

I retested as you suggested and provided links to the files above in my first post. I don't currently have a sub with my set-up. The monitor down to the right in the picture is not being used. I believe the low end was high from just being too close to the front wall. I'd be satisfied if I could improve the dips at 55hz & 280hz somehow.

Unfortunately, I haven't actually gotten to the point of mixing and producing in this room just yet so I'm not sure if I will be encountering any major surprises. My collection of flac music sure sounds good though.
Old 6th July 2016
  #10
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swurveman View Post
I would say this to anybody who cannot discern "whether the measurements are within a respectable average range, or if they just flat out stink." :

Unless you have the time and inclination to want to learn and implement room acoustics- a long and laborious process involving absorption and diffusion including tuned devices to react to specific frequencies- hire an Acoustician.

I found out that I did not have the time or the expertise to go the DIY route. I spent a lot of time and money trying the DIY route and got a result that wasn't good enough for me. So, what I built and bought-mostly bass traps- is going to be sold and I'm starting over.

I wish I would have hired an Acoustician in the beginning. I would be better off had I done so. I spent tens of thousands of dollars on gear, but it doesn't matter if you don't have the room tuned properly and every room is different. I spent time building bass traps, but found that I did not have the time, inclination or talent to become an expert on acoustics to go to the next level of tuning my room.

Think about this before you go the DIY route. Look at the diffusor threads. Do you have the tools to do this? Do you have the expertise to build them? Do you have the time to study room acoustics, which beyond learning how to build acoustic solutions (panels, diffusors etc) goes to being able to properly understand testing results and troubleshoot specific frequency problems?

This is not easy stuff.
Thanks for the advice. I went the DIY route since I wanted to go through the experience and learn. I'll definitely hire an acoustician if my music making hobby turns into something more serious. At some point it would be nice if making music was my career, but at the moment my regular day job involves working at a water company as a civil engineer.
Old 6th July 2016
  #11
Lives for gear
In the new mdat, it looks like the 5.6 feet measurement is only the right speaker playing, with a slightly different mic position from the 'right speaker' measurement. Would still be good to see them both together too.

I prefer the variable smoothing to 1/12, more honest with the bass and still readable as it goes up. With that on you're looking at +/- 7.5 dB, which is good considering the small size of the room. Nice work! Did you move the ceiling cloud back when you moved the desk?

Personally I would probably want to experiment with ~4dB shelving boost below around 90hz, I like the low end up a little over flat (and this is fairly common). Your speakers might have some dip switches on back to adjust this a little.

Areas for improvement- Looking at your impulse response, and spectrogram, you have more reflected/diffracted energy inside the first 20ms than we like to see. A good target is 20ms with -20dB in the impulse (30dB would be ideal), and in the spectrogram you can see what frequencies are the most troublesome in that window.

It looks to me like 2 issues are cluttering that ER zone, the first is probably desk reflections. You may want to try to get the speakers on stands, between the desk and the wall. With the desk not *too* much lower than the speakers. This makes the angle of reflection much more obtuse so the reflected sound hits your chest instead of ears.

Also, another likely candidate is the material you use for the traps. A lot of fabrics are more reflective to treble than you would think. You might try some polar fleece or terry cloth at the ER points on the walls and ceiling to see if it clears up the ER zone.
Attached Thumbnails
Built My First Treated Room - Feedback Appreciated-rob-impulse.jpg   Built My First Treated Room - Feedback Appreciated-rob-spect.jpg  
Old 12th July 2016
  #12
Lives for gear
 
akebrake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
.......Looking at your impulse response, and spectrogram, you have more reflected/diffracted energy inside the first 20ms than we like to see. A good target is 20ms with -20dB in the impulse (30dB would be ideal), and in the spectrogram you can see what frequencies are the most troublesome in that window...
Ryan, would you mind showing the control box for your Spectrogram plot?
BTW Is that your own " favourite default" set up?

Best
Old 12th July 2016
  #13
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Ryan, would you mind showing the control box for your Spectrogram plot?
BTW Is that your own " favourite default" set up?

Best
The main thing is the window setting, by moving it down to ~10 or even 5 you get a much more clear picture of the treble at the expense of seeing anything in the bass.

In this one, moving it down to 5 or even 3 (and lowering the time range) is really revealing for where those reflection/refraction ridges are coming. Set low here you can see 2 strong ER's @2.6 and 4.2.

I guess it's my favorite default, by virtue of it stays set like that the next time you generate it. I do like to mess with it a little to look into different areas...
Attached Thumbnails
Built My First Treated Room - Feedback Appreciated-spectrogram-settings.jpg   Built My First Treated Room - Feedback Appreciated-ridges.jpg  
Old 13th July 2016
  #14
Lives for gear
 
akebrake's Avatar
 

Treble reflections

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
The main thing is the window setting, by moving it down to ~10 or even 5 you get a much more clear picture of the treble at the expense of seeing anything in the bass...
Thanks! I really appreciate sharing and your thoughts behind!

Spectrograms are not often discussed here . Especially if we’re leaving REW "default land” which AFAIK is ment for finding and Equalizing Room modes with a high Frequency Resolution. (2Hz typical)
Hence the name ”Room Equalizer Wizard”.

During development a number of excellent new features are added like Spectrogram, (wavelet/fourier), frequency dependent windowing FDW, and more
which makes the number of possible ways to present measured data very large. Huh

So useful ”GS ways/ ideas” to show and compare data are always welcome!

Best

Ake
Old 14th July 2016
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

It seems there is also a lot of modal activity at 65 Hz, a resonnance that will sustain. You can see it in better in the Fourier spectrogram I guess. This is quite probably the vertical fondamental mode (8 feet is 70Hz) , and there is not much treatment to adress it right now. You could use your extra pannels to increase the size of your cloud. I guess it would help.
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