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MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II
Old 7th April 2016
  #1
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MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II

Hello everybody,


This is a new thread for an improved diffusive small control room acoustic design for surround and stereo monitoring, already discussed here since 2011.

Paper about new MyRoom Acoustic Design is accepted from AESorg, and will be presented on Sunday, June 5, 09:00 — 11:00 as a P8-4 Session:
AES Paris 2016 » Poster Session P8: Room Acoustics, Instrumentation and Measurement,
as a poster presentation.

So anyone who already planned to visit the AES Convention in Paris, this is a good time to meet and talk about this topic.
Who also didn't plan to visit it, it is a good moment to reconsider this decision

So, I started a new thread to continue the discussion... And I will ask admins to lock an old one.



Last edited by boggy; 10th April 2016 at 09:42 PM..
Old 7th April 2016
  #2
I've read the paper and it's very interesting.

Boggy is currently designing my new mastering room according to the principles it describes, with demolition scheduled to begin on 16th May. I am super excited and couldn't be happier with the process so far (even if, like everyone always says, building studios is a money pit).

I'll probably start a build thread once we get underway if anyone's interested.
Old 8th April 2016
  #3
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Old 9th April 2016
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raian View Post
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Ditto
Old 10th April 2016
  #5
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looking forward to giving that a read when i can.
Old 5th June 2016
  #6
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Hello everybody, we finished today's presentation, here are some blurry images:
Attached Thumbnails
MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-img_6503-m.jpg   MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-img_6504-m.jpg  
Old 6th June 2016
  #7
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Just purchased the paper.
Old 6th June 2016
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocratic Mastering View Post
I've read the paper and it's very interesting.

Boggy is currently designing my new mastering room according to the principles it describes, with demolition scheduled to begin on 16th May. I am super excited and couldn't be happier with the process so far (even if, like everyone always says, building studios is a money pit).

I'll probably start a build thread once we get underway if anyone's interested.
Studio building thread please!
Old 6th June 2016
  #9
Ask and ye shall receive:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/phot...ggy-build.html

I'll hopefully post an update today or tomorrow.
Old 6th June 2016
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Hello everybody, we finished today's presentation, here are some blurry images:
Well, I got some better pictures


Attached Thumbnails
MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-_mg_0611-m.jpg   MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-_mg_0642-m.jpg   MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-_mg_0646-m.jpg   MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-_mg_0684-m.jpg   MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-_mg_0688-m.jpg  

MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-_mg_0676-m.jpg  
Old 6th June 2016
  #11
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AES E-Library

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundthinker View Post
Just purchased the paper.
Me too, just purchased Boggy's "A Novel Approach of Multichannel and Stereo Control Room Acoustic Treatment, Second Edition" at the AES E-Library.

Good to see Boggy's MyRoom Acoustic Design evolving -- I've already designed different rooms inspired by his ideas and we are all moving further this way.
Attached Thumbnails
MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II-gernot_ebenlechner_raumakustik_ts_dsc_0020.jpg  
Old 7th June 2016
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. E. View Post
Me too, just purchased Boggy's "A Novel Approach of Multichannel and Stereo Control Room Acoustic Treatment, Second Edition" at the AES E-Library.

Good to see Boggy's MyRoom Acoustic Design evolving -- I've already designed different rooms inspired by his ideas and we are all moving further this way.
Thanks for the kind words Gernot. I'm glad my work give you inspiration. This room looks great!

I'm happy to announce that paper now have Open Access status, so it can be downloaded for free.


Enjoy!

Old 9th June 2016
  #13
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Hi Boggy!
I was looking forward to read this new paper, your work inspired me e a lot!
There is something I didn't get for the paper: what is the QRD101 diffuser you are referring to?
Also, I saw in the photos of you new studios a different kind of diffuser, kind of amplitude grating diffuser with constant slats. How is it did? Does it use an octal sequence?
Thanks a lot!
Old 10th June 2016
  #14
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Hi Bob!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Benozzo View Post
...
I was looking forward to read this new paper, your work inspired me e a lot!
Thank you very much!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Benozzo View Post
There is something I didn't get for the paper: what is the QRD101 diffuser you are referring to?
QRD101 is 1D Quadratic-residue diffuser of 101st order.
You can generate it with QRDude QRDude User guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Benozzo View Post
Also, I saw in the photos of you new studios a different kind of diffuser, kind of amplitude grating diffuser with constant slats. How is it did? Does it use an octal sequence?
No, this is an ordinary binary sequence where zeroes are absorptive and ones are reflective. They have a very basic diffusion characteristic, and in recent time I built only one studio with that type of diffusers after customer stubbornly insisted. Binary amplitude grating are not nearly as good as phase grating diffusers, for making diffuse field... But useful if aesthetics is primary goal.


Hexadecimal PRN* diffuser (MyRoom Design MkII, Garage Studio, Niš, Serbia)




Quaternary PRN* diffuser (MyRoom Design MkII, Studio M2932, Ečka, Serbia)



I never built octal type...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Benozzo View Post
Thanks a lot!
My pleasure!







* - PRN means "Pseudo Random Noise" (Sequence)

Last edited by boggy; 10th June 2016 at 01:06 AM..
Old 10th June 2016
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Hi Bob!
................
About what Bob additionally explain me in a comment on our FB page, he talk about treatment of the Live Room of Studio M2932 (random arrangement of Newell's 345 sequence) which is ok to be amplitude grating. The MyRoom Mk II concept is dedicated for Control Rooms.


Here is Live Room I'm talking about:





Last edited by boggy; 10th June 2016 at 09:10 AM..
Old 10th June 2016
  #16
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Hey Boggy,

I'm also majorly inspired by your design, and plan to use it as a basis for building a home theater and listening room at some point (house shopping at the moment). If I hadn't come across your design, demolishing the entire house and building a mini Blackbird studio was my backup plan.

I was hoping if it wasn't a bother just to clarify a few points from your paper and make sure I'm on the right track.

1) Your hexadecimal diffuser design can be any length. So that 4 meter one you mention in the paper was say a PRN of 0's and 1's 2,048 digits long (or however many used), converted to hex, and then each digit is the slat height (And the maximum slat height is based only on targeted diffusion frequency?). So you can make an 8meter diffuser just by adding more 0's and 1's at the start. It isn't built of smaller diffuser units, its one long diffuser (so I'm thinking its along the lines of one single QRD using a large prime number, vs an array of QRD 7's that need to be adjusted to avoid periodicity). Correct?

2) This continuous diffuser is the main upgrade to your design, along with ditching Newell(?) hangers for the absorption right?

3) If one were to leave the number as is, and not raise it with the offset, would this just lower diffusion and add absorption, or does this affect the helmholtz system too much too? (More open surface area to the treatment behind where Hex number is zero).

4) Related to 3, does raising the slats with the offset not change the Helmholtz affect noticeably, or is that the point and I missed it? (You just mention it doesn't affect principle of the work for the phase grating, and strengthens the thinnest slat) I'm just wondering if the added offset adds enough air/mass into the system to change tuning just as changing gap width lowered it, similar to lengthening the neck of a coke bottle before blowing on it since a Helmholtz resonator is dependent on the length of the neck right? It seems this is semi-accounted for in h=Hmax/2+Hoffset in your simulations, or am I barking down an empty rabbit hole?

5) To optimize the slat/gap ratio, was it an iterative process of simulations changing slat gap to narrow in on the desired absorption graph, or was a "simpler" method used (like actually calculating the frequency of the Helmholtz resonator formed with a neck cross sectional area using average slat height and gap width)? Was Hmax and Hoffset chosen in a similar manner or as asked in question one is this based solely on targeted frequency?

6) In the old MkI design, you had a gap between the air transparent diffuser and the absorber, and air transparent fabric attached to the back of the diffuser, it looks like that is gone now correct? It was there before due to using a different type of absorber right?

7) Is the thickness of the air gap between the porous absorber and the stiff back important? I've read that you can get *close* to the same absorption values by using X inches of porous absorber and X inches air gap to reduce cost, instead of X+X inches of all porous absorber. Is this the only thing in affect, or is it related to the helmholtz calculations here? I'm also assuming that if the room is built properly the room wall becomes the stiff back correct?

8) And final one for now, in your pictures of Studio M2932 the diffuser doesn't run from floor to ceiling, or wall to wall, is this because you need the remaining surface area for pure absorption (or some other bass control)? Or is this purely aesthetic design (which I am even more clueless on than acoustics )


Apologies if these questions seem basic or are asking for too much info. I've done a fair bit of reading on forums and your papers, but unfortunately with driving six hours a day to get to/from work, plus the work itself, I haven't had time to read the copies of Sound Reproduction by Floyd Toole, Master Handbook of Acoustics, or D'antonio's book on diffusers, all sitting next to my bed so my knowledge is still limited. If there are any other resources that might help please let me know.

Again, Boggy you rock.
Old 10th June 2016
  #17
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Fantastic and congratulations!

Andre
Old 10th June 2016
  #18
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Hey mushroommunk,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
Hey Boggy,

I'm also majorly inspired by your design, and plan to use it as a basis for building a home theater and listening room at some point (house shopping at the moment). If I hadn't come across your design, demolishing the entire house and building a mini Blackbird studio was my backup plan.
Blackbird studio cannot be "mini", and still working, as a concept. LF absorption is crucial in the Control Room treatment... And with less space you will loose required LF absorption.
Also, phasing effect can happen because ear proximity to the too deep diffusers. Three or four wavelengths of lower working frequency are minimum distance from the ear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
I was hoping if it wasn't a bother just to clarify a few points from your paper and make sure I'm on the right track.
It won't bother me, this is a reason I started a thread... I don't sell anything here
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
1) Your hexadecimal diffuser design can be any length. So that 4 meter one you mention in the paper was say a PRN of 0's and 1's 2,048 digits long (or however many used), converted to hex, and then each digit is the slat height (And the maximum slat height is based only on targeted diffusion frequency?).
Yes, basically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
So you can make an 8meter diffuser just by adding more 0's and 1's at the start. It isn't built of smaller diffuser units, its one long diffuser (so I'm thinking its along the lines of one single QRD using a large prime number, vs an array of QRD 7's that need to be adjusted to avoid periodicity). Correct?
Yes, but you don't need to make one single 8m diffuser, you can make more smaller, but different, modules, and then include it in one long diffuser.
The problem with QRD is because their formula makes too many different well heights, when you increase the order of the diffuser (EDIT: YES! to avoid periodicity), what make diffuser more expensive. I needed something with similar complexity as our very first design (RES Media Studio), which diffuser modules had 13th and 7th order. So 4,8 or 16 possible slat heights were a good choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
2) This continuous diffuser is the main upgrade to your design, along with ditching Newell(?) hangers for the absorption right?
Yes, yes, together with possibility of more controlled room liveliness with strong diffuse field, with less building complexity and less price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
3) If one were to leave the number as is, and not raise it with the offset, would this just lower diffusion and add absorption, or does this affect the helmholtz system too much too? (More open surface area to the treatment behind where Hex number is zero).
You can imagine where this will go if you look at absorption modelling results in paper... this will go to something we already had... more close to MyRoom Design Mk I.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
4) Related to 3, does raising the slats with the offset not change the Helmholtz affect noticeably, or is that the point and I missed it? (You just mention it doesn't affect principle of the work for the phase grating, and strengthens the thinnest slat) I'm just wondering if the added offset adds enough air/mass into the system to change tuning just as changing gap width lowered it, similar to lengthening the neck of a coke bottle before blowing on it since a Helmholtz resonator is dependent on the length of the neck right? It seems this is semi-accounted for in h=Hmax/2+Hoffset in your simulations, or am I barking down an empty rabbit hole?
I believe Helmholtz absorber, described in paper, doesn't know too much about the diffusion function of it, and will work (something) with or without offset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post

5) To optimize the slat/gap ratio, was it an iterative process of simulations changing slat gap to narrow in on the desired absorption graph, or was a "simpler" method used (like actually calculating the frequency of the Helmholtz resonator formed with a neck cross sectional area using average slat height and gap width)? Was Hmax and Hoffset chosen in a similar manner or as asked in question one is this based solely on targeted frequency?
This paper describes a basic concept of acoustic design. Anybody is free to use it and to try to design it in his/her own way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
6) In the old MkI design, you had a gap between the air transparent diffuser and the absorber, and air transparent fabric attached to the back of the diffuser, it looks like that is gone now correct? It was there before due to using a different type of absorber right?
Nope, the gap may reappear or not... Depending of design conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
7) Is the thickness of the air gap between the porous absorber and the stiff back important? I've read that you can get *close* to the same absorption values by using X inches of porous absorber and X inches air gap to reduce cost, instead of X+X inches of all porous absorber. Is this the only thing in affect, or is it related to the helmholtz calculations here? I'm also assuming that if the room is built properly the room wall becomes the stiff back correct?
Gap is important, even if it doesn't exist... Everything you ask is dependent of particular design condition. After seven Control Rooms designed in the described way, I saw no simple formula.
Adding strong slat absorber function before wideband porous absorbers, gives the possibility to have ~10% less thickness of that porous absorbers... This is just the scientific conclusion of some benefit of this concept... After some analysis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
8) And final one for now, in your pictures of Studio M2932 the diffuser doesn't run from floor to ceiling, or wall to wall, is this because you need the remaining surface area for pure absorption (or some other bass control)? Or is this purely aesthetic design (which I am even more clueless on than acoustics )
Well, there are even more different conditions... Depending on customers, acoustic and non acoustic things... Until now, I tried to meet everyone's wish, without bothering acoustics in the room too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post

Apologies if these questions seem basic or are asking for too much info. I've done a fair bit of reading on forums and your papers, but unfortunately with driving six hours a day to get to/from work, plus the work itself, I haven't had time to read the copies of Sound Reproduction by Floyd Toole, Master Handbook of Acoustics, or D'antonio's book on diffusers, all sitting next to my bed so my knowledge is still limited. If there are any other resources that might help please let me know.

Again, Boggy you rock.
NP, thank you very much!



Last edited by boggy; 11th June 2016 at 06:48 AM..
Old 10th June 2016
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
Fantastic and congratulations!

Andre
Thank you very much, Andre!


Old 10th June 2016
  #20
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Snipped this down so its more readable, just assume the missing bits are me nodding and making a mental note to buy you a few bottles of whiskey if we ever meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
It won't bother me, this is a reason I started a thread... I don't sell anything here
Your loss, my gain

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Yes, basically.

Yes, but you don't need to make one single 8m diffuser, you can make more smaller, but different, modules, and then include it in one long diffuser.
The problem with QRD is because their formula makes too many different well heights, when you increase the order of the diffuser (EDIT: YES! to avoid periodicity), what make diffuser more expensive. I needed something with similar complexity as our very first design (RES Media Studio), which diffuser modules had 13th and 7th order. So 4,8 or 16 possible slat heights were a good choice
Makes total sense to me. I assume the fractal (nested?) diffuser in RES Media Studio was not the easiest thing in the world to build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
I believe Helmholtz absorber, described in paper, doesn't know too much about the diffusion function of it, and will work (something) with or without offset.
I still don't get how adding the offset doesn't change the neck of an effective Helmholtz resonator enough to worry about it, but hey, I'll trust you on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
This paper describes a basic concept of acoustic design. Anybody is free to use it and to try to design it in his/her own way.
I totally get that, I'm mostly trying to gather the information I need about which parts to worry about, and find a way to adapt it to my situation. I'm trying to grasp the why and figure out if I'm approaching this right and thinking about the right parts. (and hopefully my stumbling through this knowledge can help others too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Nope, the gap may reappear or not... Depending of design conditions.

Gap is important, even if it doesn't exist... Everything you ask is dependent of particular design condition. After seven Control Rooms designed in the described way, I saw no simple formula.
Adding strong slat absorber function before wideband porous absorbers, gives the possibility to have ~10% less thickness of that porous absorbers... This is just the scientific conclusion of some benefit of this concept... After some analysis.
Can you expand on this part a tad more? I'm trying to figure out what that gap is affecting (like is it tied to Helmholtz or something) so I can approach designing my room with the tools I need. If this is one of those "go read a book things" then I'm down with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Well, there are even more different conditions... Depending on customers, acoustic and non acoustic things... Until now, I tried to meet everyone's wish, without bothering acoustics in the room too much.


NP, thank you very much!


You seriously have the patience of a saint. I can't even begin to fathom balancing all these things, let alone answering things in the forums. And it looks beautiful to boot. I'm curious, do you do the full design yourself (aesthetics and other non-acoustic influences) or do you have help with that?
Old 10th June 2016
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
..........
Makes total sense to me. I assume the fractal (nested?) diffuser in RES Media Studio was not the easiest thing in the world to build.
Studio Acoustic is not about building, it is about design (ask @ avare for more explanation )
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post


I still don't get how adding the offset doesn't change the neck of an effective Helmholtz resonator enough to worry about it, but hey, I'll trust you on this one.
I never say it doesn't change "the neck", I only said that I cannot give a UNIVERSAL advice how to design it. As I said, I described a basic concept, and I have no ambitions to develop a guide how to design MyRoom Design MkII Concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post


I totally get that, I'm mostly trying to gather the information I need about which parts to worry about, and find a way to adapt it to my situation. I'm trying to grasp the why and figure out if I'm approaching this right and thinking about the right parts. (and hopefully my stumbling through this knowledge can help others too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post

Can you expand on this part a tad more? I'm trying to figure out what that gap is affecting (like is it tied to Helmholtz or something) so I can approach designing my room with the tools I need. If this is one of those "go read a book things" then I'm down with that.
I fear there is no book to read and learn "everything" about current topics. This is a new concept and I learn something new every day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post


You seriously have the patience of a saint. I can't even begin to fathom balancing all these things, let alone answering things in the forums. And it looks beautiful to boot. I'm curious, do you do the full design yourself (aesthetics and other non-acoustic influences) or do you have help with that?
Thanks. Well, I have my team, we design everything.



Last edited by boggy; 10th June 2016 at 08:07 PM..
Old 10th June 2016
  #22
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Still trying to formulate a real question, but looking at ETCs from Studio RES, Pressed Lizard, Blackbird C, and MyRoom mkII, I'm struck by how the mkII ETC slope, while longer, also goes significantly lower (dB) before leveling off. I may be misreading this because of the different scales used in the figures. It looks like almost 70 dB between the initial diffuse field and the noise floor.

I'm also intrigued by how even with slat gaps of only 6mm, there is still a 20dB drop from the initial sound to the diffuse field. I would have thought that with less porous absorber exposed, this would be higher. Is this more a function of the diffusers ability to absorb (scatter) energy? I know in the Blackbird design presentation floating around they make a big deal about how much the high prime 2d diffusers 'absorb'.


EDIT: I just found the .PDF and RPG uses the term 'attenuation' instead of absorb. And they state Blackbird's walls have an attenuation of 51dB.

Last edited by soundthinker; 10th June 2016 at 09:23 PM.. Reason: Found Blackbird pdf
Old 10th June 2016
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundthinker View Post
........I may be misreading this because of the different scales used in the figures. It looks like almost 70 dB between the initial diffuse field and the noise floor.
This is about noise floor of the measurement chain, measurement setup, the level of sound used for measurements, together with noise in the room itself. From my perspective slope is more important than noise floor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundthinker View Post
I'm also intrigued by how even with slat gaps of only 6mm, there is still a 20dB drop from the initial sound to the diffuse field. I would have thought that with less porous absorber exposed, this would be higher. Is this more a function of the diffusers ability to absorb (scatter) energy? I know in the Blackbird design presentation floating around they make a big deal about how much the high prime 2d diffusers 'absorb'.
For "20dB drop", the size of the room plays a role too, so absorption of absorbers/diffusers are a part of overall absorption. It is not too relevant to compare it between differently treated different rooms.
Old 10th June 2016
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
For "20dB drop", the size of the room plays a role too, so absorption of absorbers/diffusers are a part of overall absorption. It is not too relevant to compare it between differently treated different rooms.
Pressed Lizard had 5db more drop than the larger RES and mkII rooms. In your experience, have you found any specific parameters that would help predict this?
Old 11th June 2016
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundthinker View Post
Pressed Lizard had 5db more drop than the larger RES and mkII rooms.
If this can help, Pressed Lizard had widest side/ceiling/back diffusers gaps and have mostly cut chipboard edges as slats, not veneered, very absorptive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by soundthinker View Post
In your experience, have you found any specific parameters that would help predict this?
No. Approximate formulae for modeling this behavior probably can be tried to be done (traveling distance "absorption" + absorber absorption after reflection included to vector sum), but nobody did it AFAIK.

Last edited by boggy; 11th June 2016 at 07:37 AM..
Old 12th June 2016
  #26
It is very nice to see new developemnts and boggys intrest in sharing is amazing. Thankyou very much for making as a little part of it!

I've got a simple question, why PRN? MLS wouldn't work insted?
Old 13th June 2016
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Vera View Post
It is very nice to see new developemnts and boggys intrest in sharing is amazing. Thankyou very much for making as a little part of it!
You're welcome!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Vera View Post
I've got a simple question, why PRN? MLS wouldn't work insted?
It is about a pseudo random (binary?) sequence of arbitrary length, where coin flipping is good too, and dice rolling is less slow. In other words, pick your poison...




Last edited by boggy; 13th June 2016 at 09:19 AM..
Old 13th June 2016
  #28
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About coin flipping,
I was inspired by Boggy's approach to diffuser design, so I thought to use coin flipping to pick some Lotto numbers. I was amazed at how close my numbers were to the winners that week!!!
Old 13th June 2016
  #29
Oh I like dice rolling. Got some d8 and d12 from D&D (sorry about that) lol.

The hight of the steps are related to the working frq. It should be 1/4 of a wave lenght for the minimum working freq?
Or it doesnt mather that much. Wich was the high if the steps (with the offset) that you find usefull if this mather at all
Old 13th June 2016
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Vera View Post
Oh I like dice rolling. Got some d8 and d12 from D&D (sorry about that) lol.
Yes, Dungeons&Dragons "dices" may be helpful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Vera View Post
The hight of the steps are related to the working frq. It should be 1/4 of a wave lenght for the minimum working freq?
Or it doesnt mather that much. Wich was the high if the steps (with the offset) that you find usefull if this mather at all
Look in the paper to see from which frequency diffusion coefficient becomes more pronounced. maximum height of slat is 16cm (if I remember correctly)
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