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MyRoom Acoustic Design Mark II
Old 3rd September 2018
  #91
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boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
(bolded by me)

Hello Boggy, when you say small, how small is small? Is there a minimum size?

Thanks a lot. Great thread.
It is fully applicable for residential "bedroom size" 4x5x2.6m (before treatment)

Smallest space I ever successfully did this way, was 3.56x3.67x2.55m, very bad shaped "kids room" size. I described results here:

AES E-Library >> Acoustical Design of Control Room for Stereo and Multichannel Production and Reproduction—A Novel Approach

But it is applicable to the bigger spaces too.


Old 3rd September 2018
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Hello Dan,


I calculate it same as standard QRD.

~1kHz lowest working frequency is more correlated to 8cm well height. 16cm maximum well height is correlated to ~500Hz.

use this formula:

h=c/4f

where is:

h-maximum height of well (m)
c-speed of sound (m/s)
f-lowest working frequency (Hz)

That's exactly what I needed thanks! Excellent and useful information!
In my room I think that I can go down lower on my rear wall but the side walls I can only really design for 1KHz realistically. The ceiling is about 2.35m once treatment is installed, so I can just about squeeze 1KHz diffusers up there too I think!

I'll be sure to let you know how my room goes implementing your myroom design!

Thanks again,
Dan
Old 5th September 2018
  #93
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boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Vernall View Post
..........
I'll be sure to let you know how my room goes implementing your myroom design!
Please, share your building experience and overall impressions with members of this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Vernall View Post
Thanks again,
Dan
My pleasure

Old 6th October 2018
  #94
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Galaxy Wizard's Avatar
Hi Boggy!
My control room build is probably one of the slowest in the world, but I am back with it =) As far as I try to implement MRAD mk2 design, I have some new questions.

How do you usually treat ceiling when there is not enough space?

My room’s full height is only 2,62 m. I plan to put 30 cm of absorbing material (less seems to be not very practical for absorbing low freq). Then I go with “3 wave length from diffuser” rule. If listening position (sitting) is 1,2 m from the floor, then I get away with diffuser working frequency around 1 KHz which is ok (I hope). But if I want to record vocals (myself most of the times) in this room (standing singer) then mic position is ~1,6-1,7 m from the floor which leaves space only for ~1,7 KHz diffuser. And that already seems to be not very practical value to bother.

I see few solutions:
1) Leave dedicated area for vocal recording and go with 1,7 KHz diffusion there.
2) Leave dedicated area for vocal recording and go with just absorption there.
3) Go with whole ceiling of 1 KHz diffusion. But for vocal sessions hang acoustic foam panel above singer to eliminate diffuser proximity effect.

What would you suggest?
Thanks!
Old 10th October 2018
  #95
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Hi Wizard,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy Wizard View Post
Hi Boggy!
My control room build is probably one of the slowest in the world, but I am back with it =) As far as I try to implement MRAD mk2 design, I have some new questions.

How do you usually treat ceiling when there is not enough space?

My room’s full height is only 2,62 m. I plan to put 30 cm of absorbing material (less seems to be not very practical for absorbing low freq). Then I go with “3 wave length from diffuser” rule. If listening position (sitting) is 1,2 m from the floor, then I get away with diffuser working frequency around 1 KHz which is ok (I hope). But if I want to record vocals (myself most of the times) in this room (standing singer) then mic position is ~1,6-1,7 m from the floor which leaves space only for ~1,7 KHz diffuser. And that already seems to be not very practical value to bother.

I see few solutions:
1) Leave dedicated area for vocal recording and go with 1,7 KHz diffusion there.
2) Leave dedicated area for vocal recording and go with just absorption there.
3) Go with whole ceiling of 1 KHz diffusion. But for vocal sessions hang acoustic foam panel above singer to eliminate diffuser proximity effect.

What would you suggest?
Thanks!
I will go with second option. Leaving back of the control room without diffusers, except on back wall, so keeping only first reflection points for diffuser placement. This way you will avoid proximity diffusion when you record vocals in the back of the room.

This way you will lower decay time a little, but main diffusion effect during mixing will be present.


Old 13th October 2018
  #96
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Galaxy Wizard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
...
This way you will lower decay time a little, but main diffusion effect during mixing will be present.
Thanks for the answer! I'll try only front part of the room + back wall with diffusers first. And then if I am not satisfied I'll try to add more.

By the way, while digging demo of Soundflow software I realized that there may be even further improvement of decay for 125-1000 Hz (and may be little on overall diffusion as well). I am talking about example in MyRoom mk2 whitepaper. Sorry if I am wrong, but it seems to be important enough to mention. For Soundflow simulation you used 95 mm slat gap height (arithmetical mean of min and max slat heights), but actual mean slat gap height is smaller. Slat gap is formed by two neighbor slats (not by one). So if we have for example 20 mm slat and then 170 mm slat then actual gap height is only 20 mm. That's why arithmetical mean gives bigger result than should be used for simulation. For your example more appropriate would be 68 mm (considering that all slat heights go with equal probability), this accounts for two neighbor slats forming the gap. If we use this value for simulation, then absorption on 125-1000 Hz is slightly stronger than in the whitepaper. Not a big deal, but we fight for every bit of decay here, yes? =)
The thing is we can use not 6 mm gap, but only 4 mm gap between slats to have absorption curve from the whitepaper.
I understand that simulation gives very and very approximate results especially in the case we use mean slat height. But nevertheless it may be further improvement! =)
Sorry again if I am wrong and thanks for your time!

Last edited by Galaxy Wizard; 13th October 2018 at 05:34 PM.. Reason: mistake
Old 21st October 2018
  #97
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Galaxy Wizard's Avatar
Hi Boggy,
Sorry for too many questions, but it is hard to learn acoustics without asking..

Could you please tell from your experience what is practical absorber depth on side walls of a room with 4 m width?
Playing with Soundflow I ended up with minimum 40 cm depth to suppress 43 Hz mode between walls. Then I read from Soundflow's help that density of absorber material adds "additional effects due to the conduction of sound by the vibrating structure". "However, this should account for a small correction only, otherwise the plate or perforated panel type should be used for the material." But in our case correction on low end is far from small. If density parameter is left blank, I end up with minimum 50 cm absorber depth. What is your field experience? May be in reality even 30 cm is enough or may be even 60 cm isn't?

The second question is how to determine absorption-diffusion transition? If I get it right, absorption coeff of 0.7 means that reflection from surface on this freq will be ~10 dB lower than incident wave (20*log10(0.3)). Then we have scattering coeff (not diffusion coeff) of diffuser. If again I get it right, 0.7 means that reflection ~10 dB lower than incident wave is reflected like from flat surface and other energy is scattered elsewhere. If we aim to suppress early reflections let's say by 10 dB then we need either absorb these 10 dB or scatter to other directions (or both in transition frequency area). Then absorption coeff should be 0.7+ where scattering is near 0 and scattering coeff should be 0.7+ where absorption is near 0. In the middle of transition area both should be around 0.45+.
But form MRAD2 paper transition is more relaxed and wide with lower absorption and scattering coeffs. Still freq spectrum of MRAD2 studios is plain enough in transition zone, without evident comb filtering from early reflections. And ER level from ETC graph is much lower than 10 dB.
And from T30 graph we see that decay in transition zone is faster. Either I don't get it right or in reality absorption in transition zone is noticeably higher than Soundflow shows. What do you think?
Old 21st November 2018
  #98
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Hello Bogic and others, hope you're good

I have a simple question for Boggy regarding the simulation of your diffusers on Reflex.

You presented different graphs of different diffusers:

"It is decided to simulate parameters of ~4m long diffuser built from QRD13, QRD101 and Pseudo Random Noise sequence, coded to 16 different slat heights."


My question is very simple: do your simulation take the gaps between each slats into account?

Just wanted to ask, since wells on QRD have an impact on diffusing coefficient, finless design have a different coefficient, so I presume a gap between each slats might have another different diffusing coefficient...?

Many thanks

J.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #99
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Galaxy Wizard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
My question is very simple: do your simulation take the gaps between each slats into account?

Just wanted to ask, since wells on QRD have an impact on diffusing coefficient, finless design have a different coefficient, so I presume a gap between each slats might have another different diffusing coefficient...?
Reflex can't simulate absorbing gaps.
I ended up with programming my own code in Matlab+K-Wave toolbox to simulate constructions with gaps. From my findings gaps reduce diffusion and sometimes very noticeably especially on lower frequencies. Also I haven't found that better design without gaps found from messing with Reflex is always better design with gaps. Gaps change how diffusion works. Anyway if we want to absorb lows from some point we can't get away without gaps of some sort. Though there may be different constructions which give better diffusion with same low end absorption. For example instead of gaps between each well (slat) just some wells can be absorbing. From my modelling this gives better diffusion. But drawback is higher absorption on high frequencies (due to higher area of each absorbing element and higher overall porosity of such construction compared to Boggy's design). So in the end it is questionable which design is better in real world.
Also I must say that my code may still have bugs or modelling inaccuracies so I can't be 100% sure for now that results I get are a good match to reality or other modelling methods.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy Wizard View Post
Reflex can't simulate absorbing gaps.
But Soundflow does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy Wizard View Post
I ended up with programming my own code in Matlab+K-Wave toolbox to simulate constructions with gaps. From my findings gaps reduce diffusion and sometimes very noticeably especially on lower frequencies.
I never Matlab...will try it! thanks.

Can you define "lower" frequencies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy Wizard View Post
Also I haven't found that better design without gaps found from messing with Reflex is always better design with gaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy Wizard View Post
Also I must say that my code may still have bugs or modelling inaccuracies so I can't be 100% sure for now that results I get are a good match to reality or other modelling methods.
Very interesting.

Thank you! Reflex and Matlab are my next ones! heh

Cheers,

J.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #101
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Galaxy Wizard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
But Soundflow does.
Soundflow doesn't give diffusion coefs only absorption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
I never Matlab...will try it! thanks.
Well, it took me weeks of programming and research to get some results... So not easy way obviously. Anyway I don't know of any readily available software that predicts diffusion coefs for structures with absorbing gaps or wells. You may check Arqen (Tim Perry) thesis to get some idea on how to model diffusers with Matlab and K-Wave. (But I am not sure about some assumptions he made in his work, so I did it other way).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
Can you define "lower" frequencies?
I mean low frequencies where diffusion starts to appear for current structure without gaps (common stepped diffuser). Let's say for example we have 0,1 diffusion coef on 250 Hz for current structure. If we add absorbing gaps sometimes there is no diffusion at all (dif coef = 0) on 250 Hz. And even 0,2 sometimes goes almost to 0. In some cases decrease is not that notable. Anyway I found that there is always less diffusion with absorbing gaps (even on frequencies higher than low design frequency of diffuser).
Old 26th November 2018
  #102
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Hello Bogic,
if I'm correct, in order that Helmholtz Resonator works, it needs to be sealed.
So,

let's take this pic (looking so good!):

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post



Do you add some wood panels, in order to do a "box" using the wall, as the backing?




Otherwise, I don't see how it can work as HH.


Cheers!

J.
Old 18th April 2019
  #103
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boggy's Avatar
Hello everybody, I'm finally back on track, sorry for delayed responses!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy Wizard View Post
Thanks for the answer! I'll try only front part of the room + back wall with diffusers first. And then if I am not satisfied I'll try to add more.
Good!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy Wizard View Post
By the way, while digging demo of Soundflow software I realized that there may be even further improvement of decay for 125-1000 Hz (and may be little on overall diffusion as well). I am talking about example in MyRoom mk2 whitepaper. Sorry if I am wrong, but it seems to be important enough to mention. For Soundflow simulation you used 95 mm slat gap height (arithmetical mean of min and max slat heights), but actual mean slat gap height is smaller. Slat gap is formed by two neighbor slats (not by one). So if we have for example 20 mm slat and then 170 mm slat then actual gap height is only 20 mm. That's why arithmetical mean gives bigger result than should be used for simulation. For your example more appropriate would be 68 mm (considering that all slat heights go with equal probability), this accounts for two neighbor slats forming the gap. If we use this value for simulation, then absorption on 125-1000 Hz is slightly stronger than in the whitepaper. Not a big deal, but we fight for every bit of decay here, yes? =)
I actually did analysis of gap height including differences in neighbor slats height for pretty long sequence, and I got that mean value of slot height between slats is similar to mean height of slats, so I decide not to complicate more without real reason, and to use simpler way. AES jury was fine with that.
But, I agree, that more deep analysis may give more correct value, and that may be for latter work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy Wizard View Post
The thing is we can use not 6 mm gap, but only 4 mm gap between slats to have absorption curve from the whitepaper.
I understand that simulation gives very and very approximate results especially in the case we use mean slat height. But nevertheless it may be further improvement! =)
Sorry again if I am wrong and thanks for your time!
No, you are not wrong, but for this work I always try to think as engineer, not scientist
Old 18th April 2019
  #104
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boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
Hello Bogic and others, hope you're good

I have a simple question for Boggy regarding the simulation of your diffusers on Reflex.

You presented different graphs of different diffusers:

"It is decided to simulate parameters of ~4m long diffuser built from QRD13, QRD101 and Pseudo Random Noise sequence, coded to 16 different slat heights."


My question is very simple: do your simulation take the gaps between each slats into account?

Just wanted to ask, since wells on QRD have an impact on diffusing coefficient, finless design have a different coefficient, so I presume a gap between each slats might have another different diffusing coefficient...?

Many thanks

J.
In this simulation, I actually demonstrate that new diffuser construction using new (compressed binary) seqence (introduced by Zorica Davidovic Petrovic) actually do sound diffusion better than Schroeder sequence, especially in long constructions, for both small periodic arrangements and long native sequences of the same size, in the same preconditions.

Fins are not included for both nor absorptive slots... it is just plain diffuser sequence test.

In classic diffuser design for new Zorica's sequence, we can include fins too... so that is not a problem.

Also, I used both, in my design history, Schroeder (even two order fractal type) and Zorica's sequence for hybrid diffuser design...

So... if we introduce something new to community... we need to test and analyze everything what is included, step by step... as I did in this document:
AES Convention Papers Forum >> A Novel Approach of Multichannel and Stereo Control Room Acoustic Treatment, Second Edition

Last edited by boggy; 18th April 2019 at 01:09 PM..
Old 18th April 2019
  #105
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Good to see you back and thanks
Old 18th April 2019
  #106
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boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
Hello Bogic,
if I'm correct, in order that Helmholtz Resonator works, it needs to be sealed.
So,

let's take this pic (looking so good!):




.....

Do you add some wood panels, in order to do a "box" using the wall, as the backing?

.....


Otherwise, I don't see how it can work as HH.


Cheers!

J.
Yes, I use wood panels when needed, behind fabric (OSB doesn't look nice).
Old 10th May 2019
  #107
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boggy's Avatar
MyRoom Design studios number is growing.

Hello everybody,

I'm glad to inform you that number of studios built following MyRoom Acoustic Design (MRAD) Principle (Mark I, Mark II and Mark II+) is groving:

From the early beginnings in 2007:

- Surround Control Room for "RES Media Studios", Novi Sad, Serbia...MRAD

and 2009:

- Control Room for "Studio Pressed Lizard", Beograd, Serbia...MRAD


We have now:

- Control Room of "M2932 Studios", Ecka, Serbia...MRAD Mk2

- Control Room for "KontraPunkt Studios", Nis, Serbia...MRAD Mk2

- Control Room for "Underground Sound Factory", Beograd, Serbia...MRAD

- Control Room for "Studio Bajta", Zelezniki, Slovenia...MRAD Mk2

- Mastering Room for "Hyppocratic Mastering", Wakefield, United Kingdom...MRAD Mk2

- Control Room for "Studio D&T", Zajecar, Serbia...MRAD Mk2

- Surround Control Room for "NVL bvba", Kessel, Belgium...MRAD Mk2

- Multipurpose Room for "Fjellheim Studios", Kråkerøy, Norway...MRAD Mk2

- Two Control Rooms for "Studio SoundVerve", Serpong, Indonesia...MRAD Mk2

- Control Room for "Home Recording Studio", Sabac, Serbia...MRAD Mk2

- Control Room for "Studio Vrisak", Velika Gorica, Croatia...MRAD Mk2 (first modular way)

- Control Room for Grzegorz Kudzia, Spytkowice, Poland...MRAD Mk2+

There are a couple more... which is still in building/planning phase, they are not listed.

Additionally to scientific AES and Telfor publications:

Acoustical Design of Control Room for Stereo and Multichannel Production and Reproduction—A Novel Approach

A new acoustical design of control room for multichannel production and reproduction

A Novel Approach of Multichannel and Stereo Control Room Acoustic Treatment, Second Edition

...then following customers experience until today, we can conclude that MyRoom Acoustic Design Principle is proven good way to treat small and big Control Rooms, for both stereo and surround.


Thank everybody for trust, patience and support!
We will newer reach this milestone without you.



Cheers



Last edited by boggy; 10th May 2019 at 04:58 PM..
Old 10th May 2019
  #108
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avare's Avatar
 

Fantastic list! Thank you!
Old 10th May 2019
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
Fantastic list! Thank you!
Thank you Andre, it is important to add that on this list are both types of rooms, adaptation of existing rooms (I call them jokingly “bedrooms”) and rooms built from beginning following my guide (higher ceiling, better proportions, better soundproofing)... all of them works great. I avoid only square and cubic shapes of rooms, because, even following MyRoom Acoustic Design guide, we have no cure for them.

Old 10th May 2019
  #110
Here for the gear
 

Hello everyone
Just wanted to add one important thing. All those "bedrooms" were with totally unexpected dimensions and proportions, I mean that they were away from any usual standards, and we needed to acoustically adapt it to be a Control Room. We also used locally available absorption and construction material. In a couple of cases we only made the diffusers and exported them to the customer, because we could get in here wood of better quality with more affordable price.
We never had the same design, even when we followed the same principles.

--
MyRoom Acoustics
Old 10th May 2019
  #111
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avare's Avatar
 

You both gave great posts. On behalf of everyone who does not know how to type thank you, thank you.
Old 12th August 2019
  #112
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Hello, everybody!


@ Mauricio Gargel recently found a calculator for Zorica’s diffuser concept, which is described here:
https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/co...ns/?elib=18225

Thank you, Mauricio!

Calculator:
http://actools.tunetown.de/prn/

The calculator is made by Tom Weber (if someone knows his username here please mention him).

Thank you, Tom Weber, for the support!


To remind someone who does not remember:

Zorica’ diffusers:
- can be infinitely long,
- can have a small limited number of different slats (I use 16 or 4) independent of diffuser length.
- do not introduce aliasing, because there is no repetition of the sequence...
- it may be built from smaller (5-slat/well long e.g.) different modules, following random sequence

these are special characteristics which other diffusers doesn’t have.

Last edited by boggy; 3 weeks ago at 08:20 PM..
Old 12th August 2019
  #113
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avare's Avatar
 

Thank you and it is good to see (read?)you!
Old 12th August 2019
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
Hello, everybody!


@ Mauricio Gargel recently found calculator for Zorica’ diffuser concept, which is described here:
https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/co...ns/?elib=18225

Thank you Mauricio!

Calculator:
http://actools.tunetown.de/prn/

Calculator is made by Tom Weber (if someone know his username here please mention him).

Thank you Tom Weber for support!


To remind someone who do not remember:

Zorica’ diffusers:
- can be infinitely long,
- can have small limited number of different slats (I use 16 or 4) independent of diffuser length.
- do not introduce aliasing, because there is no repetition of the sequence...
- may be built from smaller (5-slat/well long e.g.) different modules, following random sequence

these are special characteristics which other diffusers doesn’t have.
either this or dice for hand made "pure analogue" sequence diffusers
Thanks Boggy!
Old 12th August 2019
  #115
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Thank you Boggy but no mention of the frequencies impacted with the diffuser calculator.
Old 12th August 2019
  #116
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boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
Thank you Boggy but no mention of the frequencies impacted with the diffuser calculator.
My pleasure.
You can use standard design approach for working frequency range of phase grating diffuser.
Different way to make random sequence doesn’t change diffuser basic frequency range. You can see that if you compare results in AES paper, for (101 well) long diffuser built from Schroeder’ sequence and diffuser of same length from Zorica’ sequence


Old 12th August 2019
  #117
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Thanks you
Old 12th August 2019
  #118
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boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauricio Gargel View Post
either this or dice for hand made "pure analogue" sequence diffusers
Thanks Boggy!
Only rolling the dice is pure analog (organic?) way to make sequence.
Calculator, noted above, is still digital, pseudo-random generator based.
Pick your poison...


My pleasure!


Old 3 weeks ago
  #119
Question for Boggy when you have time -- what's your approach to multipurpose room designs (tracking + mixing)? I see you listed a few on your site. Do you lean towards making sections of the room perform differently or using treatment that can be converted to become more/less reflective, absorptive or diffusive?

This seems to be a growing trend as people shy away from dividing small rooms into even smaller rooms. I get the sense that the acoustic consulting industry and its supporting products have been evolving to support this kind of room in recent years, while in the past it was generally dismissed as a bad idea.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thechrisl View Post
Question for Boggy when you have time -- what's your approach to multipurpose room designs (tracking + mixing)? I see you listed a few on your site. Do you lean towards making sections of the room perform differently or using treatment that can be converted to become more/less reflective, absorptive or diffusive?
I encourage people not to separate room for recording and mixing if resulting rooms will be worse than one from the beginning.

MyRoom Design Principle is relatively neutral for the recording with their phase grating diffusers. What you hear in the room when you listen to speakers and mix (extremely detailed sound), that cannot be recorded. Recordings sounds pretty neutral. Phase grating diffusers help people to better hear themselves during playing... and that may be a noticeable change.

Polycylindric diffusers can make the change in recording, but room sizes we talk about, are still too small to play with diffusers good for recording. So there is no change in these rooms because it is not needed, also it is not needed to cover diffusers. You can record vocals, brass, strings, drums in a room designed following MyRoom Design Principle... everything will sound neutral.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thechrisl View Post
This seems to be a growing trend as people shy away from dividing small rooms into even smaller rooms.
One time, I even refuse to design studio, which owner requires to split a relatively small room (5x6m) to two smaller just for a window(!) between Control and Recording Room. The owner was convinced that the multipurpose room will look less "professional" to his potential customers if there is no window between recording and control room. He is right, unfortunately, if customers don't have confidence in him and his work... wherever that be, so they ask for the window, which is irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechrisl View Post

I get the sense that the acoustic consulting industry and its supporting products have been evolving to support this kind of room in recent years, while in the past it was generally dismissed as a bad idea.
Many things changes, when people have needs and courage to try. Not everything what people trying become a good idea, but there are small movements.

Long ago, people talk here that side diffusers are a bad idea, that this is for audiophiles, without even tried them! After Blackbird Studio C, I got inspiration for treatment for small rooms and it works... my growing number of satisfied customers are proof.


I currently design pentagonal room with hybrid diffusers from MyRoom Design Principle, for the BIG multipurpose room, built from the beginning this way. So this will be the merging of my recording room approach with control rooms approach...





Last edited by boggy; 3 weeks ago at 01:28 AM..
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