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Cubase 8: boy do I feel duped!
Old 4th January 2015
  #31
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sameal's Avatar
This may be the only time I side with cubase on this one. Sorry to say.

You want the tools you pay the shop. I can't tell you how many things in my life I paid too much for, used on one job and then shelved it for years.

I just bought a 50$ step bit, I used on 3 preamp chassis' s and have no idea what id need it for now, but paying 50$ I wanna step bit everything now to feel I got what I paid for.
Old 4th January 2015 | Show parent
  #32
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Zoolook's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
Well, it's Live Suite that comes with 55Gb of content compared to Cubase's 15. Depending on the kind of music you do and your preferences, that 9£ can be worth it

KA
Well this is the point I was nudging towards. Logic also comes with about 40GB of samples and costs less than half as much.
Old 4th January 2015 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 15 years
Yep. Always do your homework before spending money to make sure you're buying what you need.
Old 4th January 2015 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
If you use it as a "regular" DAW it will sound as good as any other. Use its time-stretching feature on every loop and audio content and it will sound as you say.

KA
Not completely true. Defeating all Warping and simply playing back clean audio will improve the sound. But not using Warp defeats a large part of the specialized reason Live even exists. Tell me somebody who uses Live with all Warping disabled, and if there actually IS someone working that way, I would ask them why they are using Live? If you used Live as though it was a traditional DAW, it is extremely limited in many aspects of audio production as compared to Cubendo or PT or Logic.

For straight up DAW use, in my experience, Live falls far behind Cubendo for producing a project involving microphones recording humans making music that wants to sound "real". There are great things about Live, but the audio engine sounding excellent while there's a bunch of stuff going on is NOT one of them. The other issue is that the quiescent load of an audio engine built around warping causes Live to be definitely less CPU efficient with the same track count as Cubendo. Much less.

Before I get called out as biased, I own Live 9 Suite and we use it regularly at my studio where there are multiple systems. It's a phenomenal app for creating music from a different and potentially more spontaneous angle, assuming you really know what it can do. However, in practical usage, it just doesn't sound as good as a more conventional DAW for mixing. It just does not. I wish it did.

But even if Live sounded great, I would still mix in Nuendo. It's just better at it.
Old 4th January 2015 | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Getalife2 View Post
Not completely true. Defeating all Warping and simply playing back clean audio will improve the sound. But not using Warp defeats a large part of the specialized reason Live even exists. Tell me somebody who uses Live with all Warping disabled, and if there actually IS someone working that way, I would ask them why they are using Live? If you used Live as though it was a traditional DAW, it is extremely limited in many aspects of audio production as compared to Cubendo or PT or Logic.

For straight up DAW use, in my experience, Live falls far behind Cubendo for producing a project involving microphones recording humans making music that wants to sound "real". There are great things about Live, but the audio engine sounding excellent while there's a bunch of stuff going on is NOT one of them. The other issue is that the quiescent load of an audio engine built around warping causes Live to be definitely less CPU efficient with the same track count as Cubendo. Much less.

Before I get called out as biased, I own Live 9 Suite and we use it regularly at my studio where there are multiple systems. It's a phenomenal app for creating music from a different and potentially more spontaneous angle, assuming you really know what it can do. However, in practical usage, it just doesn't sound as good as a more conventional DAW for mixing. It just does not. I wish it did.

But even if Live sounded great, I would still mix in Nuendo. It's just better at it.
Total rubbish. I use Live 9 Suite and Cubase, and would mix with either if Ableton fixed PDC and added 3rd party side-chain. Mathematically what you're saying is nonsense, "grainy" and "lower-fi" doesn't make sense unless you're doing something wrong.

Also "There are great things about Live, but the audio engine sounding excellent while there's a bunch of stuff going on is NOT one of them" - the audio engine doesn't sound like anything... It's maths, like Cubase/Nuendo.
Old 4th January 2015 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Goodman View Post
Total rubbish. I use Live 9 Suite and Cubase, and would mix with either if Ableton fixed PDC and added 3rd party side-chain. Mathematically what you're saying is nonsense, "grainy" and "lower-fi" doesn't make sense unless you're doing something wrong.

Also "There are great things about Live, but the audio engine sounding excellent while there's a bunch of stuff going on is NOT one of them" - the audio engine doesn't sound like anything... It's maths, like Cubase/Nuendo.
You know, but for the "Total rubbish" opening, I would have taken it easy in responding. But......

It's not my fault you can't hear the difference. "Mathematically", you are assuming that while there are a list of various bugs a mile long in both apps, NONE are related to the audio engine. Seriously? And you can demonstrate this how? Being so certain of yourself, I'm assuming you can just post up the testing you've already done, but just in case you haven't yet, here's how.

Null 2 identical sessions in the 2 apps, post them up here, and then you can say "Total rubbish" and I'll agree. I won't hold my breath on that. Just so you know, if you have anything with Warp enabled, they cannot and will not null. So while you're at it, show me an Ableton session with all Warp turned off in the real world.

So.....IF they fixed PDC, and IF they had side-chain for 3rd party plugins, and IF the person mixing didn't want to use Warp and (fill in the blank), THEN you could/would mix in Live. Of course, you would be giving up a host of professionally oriented mixing features that exist in Cubase (Nuendo for me).

The obvious question is, what would be the point of mixing in Live if you have any of the various better options, given all the caveats? There really is no reason to advocate such an unproductive process, except to be argumentative, and you have managed to accomplish that.
Old 4th January 2015 | Show parent
  #37
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Getalife2 View Post
You know, but for the "Total rubbish" opening, I would have taken it easy in responding. But......

It's not my fault you can't hear the difference. "Mathematically", you are assuming that while there are a list of various bugs a mile long in both apps, NONE are related to the audio engine. Seriously? And you can demonstrate this how? Being so certain of yourself, I'm assuming you can just post up the testing you've already done, but just in case you haven't yet, here's how.

Null 2 identical sessions in the 2 apps, post them up here, and then you can say "Total rubbish" and I'll agree. I won't hold my breath on that. Just so you know, if you have anything with Warp enabled, they cannot and will not null. So while you're at it, show me an Ableton session with all Warp turned off in the real world.

So.....IF they fixed PDC, and IF they had side-chain for 3rd party plugins, and IF the person mixing didn't want to use Warp and (fill in the blank), THEN you could/would mix in Live. Of course, you would be giving up a host of professionally oriented mixing features that exist in Cubase (Nuendo for me).

The obvious question is, what would be the point of mixing in Live if you have any of the various better options, given all the caveats? There really is no reason to advocate such an unproductive process, except to be argumentative, and you have managed to accomplish that.
LMAO - So you're arguing with "mathematically"... Given a DAW is a pure maths engine, you're saying 1+1=2 unless it's in Ableton in which case 1+1=grainy 2 - or maybe low-fi 2... call it 1.8ish? - I dunno? That sounds like echoes of analogue technology to me.

Don't hide behind "mix-oriented features" you stated is was "grainy" and "lower-fi" - I don't have to prove anything, you're the one slandering a DAW you prove it.
Old 5th January 2015 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
OK, so as not to be a complete jerk, I should go ahead and say that because of the lack of PDC, you will never get another DAW to null with Live, assuming you use 3rd party plugins. So in reality, you should not waste your time with the null test, assuming you were even considering it.

People say, glibly, all DAWs null. They do not, when doing real mixes in the real world, but that's not easy to demonstrate, either way. Because taking an actual commercially viable mix, with ALL of the plugins, fader and pan level variables, including how crossfades are handled in edits, etc, etc, etc is basically impossible for a variety of reasons. Just one of which is the granularity deviations between internal processes versus display value limitations which do not permit enough decimal places to be accurate matched between apps. Among a host of other coding issues I won't bore you with.

Do DAWs null when the faders are at unity gain and everything is panned hard left/right, the way people test? Mostly, yes, except for DAWs like Live which are inherently applying DSP to audio behind the scenes unless you tell them to never do that, which no one ever does. Hence, the graininess. Do they null when you have a 100 track mix with a couple of hundred plugins, UAD cards, OS and driver imperfections, levels and pans all over the map, nested grouping, sometimes imperfect PDC, and on and on and on?

No. If you think they do, you are a bit naive and giving ALL the developers credit for being flawless in a large number of complex processes involved. Pro Tools Mix 24 would not null with HD when HD released. Fact, for reasons similar to those I describe above, including limitations imposed by the specific mix engine. And Pro Tools was the undisputed "King" of DAWs at that time, with a "mathematically perfect" mix engine. And you would have made the same claims you make now, back then, I suspect.

Many of the processes we CAN see have bugs. Do you really think the ones we can't see do not?
Old 5th January 2015
  #39
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
So you asked me to prove my point by nulling two sessions, and now you're saying DAWs don't null... what's you're point?

Obviously they won't null, because that's not how they work, even if the sessions were identical but one was a sample late it won't null. Do they sound grainy? No, why would they? Even with 100 tracks the offline render is a none realtime process, ie each sample waits until the sample is finished rendering regardless of how much processing is required to make that sample. The PDC is annoying, but that doesn't account for your grainy, low-fi comments. So I say again, prove what you're claiming.
Old 5th January 2015 | Show parent
  #40
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Goodman View Post
So you asked me to prove my point by nulling two sessions, and now you're saying DAWs don't null... what's you're point?

Obviously they won't null, because that's not how they work, even if the sessions were identical but one was a sample late it won't null. Do they sound grainy? No, why would they? Even with 100 tracks the offline render is a none realtime process, ie each sample waits until the sample is finished rendering regardless of how much processing is required to make that sample. The PDC is annoying, but that doesn't account for your grainy, low-fi comments. So I say again, prove what you're claiming.
What I said is that Live sounds grainy compared to Cubendo. I've already proven that to my own satisfaction in mixes like the one I described above. No contest in the sonic department in a complex, high track count mix, before you even get to the feature gap for mixing. Been mixing records that get played on the radio for decades now, starting with Neves, SSLs, Tridents, etc on analog tape. That is my sonic reference point, not EDM. My ears have served me well and made me a good living for a long time. I'm gonna be OK whether we agree or not.

Do your thing, use what you want and have a great time. That's what I do. Suggesting that someone who has the choice mix in Cubase versus Live is doing them a favor, I reckon. So that's what I did.

You're welcome.


P.S. If they won't null, how in the world can you assert that they sound identical? Without a null test, it's just your opinion/assumption. Same as mine. Except I like mine better. Peace.
Old 5th January 2015 | Show parent
  #41
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Getalife2 View Post
What I said is that Live sounds grainy compared to Cubendo. I've already proven that to my own satisfaction in mixes like the one I described above. No contest in the sonic department in a complex, high track count mix, before you even get to the feature gap for mixing. Been mixing records that get played on the radio for decades now, starting with Neves, SSLs, Tridents, etc on analog tape. That is my sonic reference point, not EDM. My ears have served me well and made me a good living for a long time. I'm gonna be OK whether we agree or not.

Do your thing, use what you want and have a great time. That's what I do. Suggesting that someone who has the choice mix in Cubase versus Live is doing them a favor, I reckon. So that's what I did.

You're welcome.


P.S. If they won't null, how in the world can you assert that they sound identical? Without a null test, it's just your opinion/assumption. Same as mine. Except I like mine better. Peace.
Still waiting for empirical evidence of graininess :p
Old 5th January 2015 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Goodman View Post
Still waiting for empirical evidence of graininess :p
Hey, I'm all over that.

Right after you post empirical evidence of indistinguishable, flawless and "mathematically" perfect performance as compared to all other DAWs under any and all conditions with literally millions of variables spread among associated hardware and software from a hundred different vendors.

Clock's ticking on your claim of "just maths". Hey, I think we might want to get this back on topic for the OP about now, yes?
Old 5th January 2015 | Show parent
  #43
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Animus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post
Well this is the point I was nudging towards. Logic also comes with about 40GB of samples and costs less than half as much.
Of course Logic is a loss leader for Apple; it's cheap because it is made up for when you have to buy an expensive mac. Logic and everything bundled with it now used to be a lot more expensive when under Emagic.
Old 5th January 2015 | Show parent
  #44
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norbury brook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
Of course Logic is a loss leader for Apple; it's cheap because it is made up for when you have to buy an expensive mac. Logic and everything bundled with it now used to be a lot more expensive when under Emagic.
This is the truth.



I usually groan when I see large amounts of samples included with a DAW.



MC
Old 27th July 2015
  #45
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Surprised to find that Cubase Artist does NOT have VariAudio!! Of course I use Cubase 8, but wanted to get the vocalist in my band to switch from Logic, but without VariAudio there is no way he is going to switch (loves to be able to correct his pitch as well as drag notes around to create interesting melodies and harmonies, etc. (can't afford Cubase full)
Old 26th July 2016
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Getalife2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
Variaudio is Elastique.....Zplane makes it for Steinberg. In fact I think zplane supplies ALL the daw makers with this technology. So just go to zplane and buy Elastique and there you are.
Not really. The integration of VariAudio into the workflow in Cubendo is a major part of the appeal for me. It's superior to adding a plugin. It's directly competitive with Melodyne, actually, which would be the same or more $$$ as just upgrading to Cubase Pro.

... Isn't that "curious"? I agree with the original post, as an artist who has worked alongside engineers in studio for roughly 10 years, it was so OBVIOUS to me that buying Cubase for my basic "Artist" needs, I would need to have the equivalent of "Melodyne" incorporated into the workflow. If you have tight recordings and you're not making electronic music it is literally one of the most BASIC tools a traditional songwriter/recording "Artist" needs. This is one of the main reasons I chose Cubase over other DAW's. I DID do my research, and apparently, I did not do enough. I GET that Steinberg is entitled to charge more for "Pro," for its extra features, but I find it more than "curious" how the draw of this incorporated feature and functionality literally amounts to nothing, unless you pay twice.
Old 26th July 2016 | Show parent
  #47
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Robert Randolph's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteinTurd View Post
... Isn't that "curious"? I agree with the original post, as an artist who has worked alongside engineers in studio for roughly 10 years, it was so OBVIOUS to me that buying Cubase for my basic "Artist" needs, I would need to have the equivalent of "Melodyne" incorporated into the workflow. If you have tight recordings and you're not making electronic music it is literally one of the most BASIC tools a traditional songwriter/recording "Artist" needs. This is one of the main reasons I chose Cubase over other DAW's. I DID do my research, and apparently, I did not do enough. I GET that Steinberg is entitled to charge more for "Pro," for its extra features, but I find it more than "curious" how the draw of this incorporated feature and functionality literally amounts to nothing, unless you pay twice.
It's right here on their product line-up page: Line-up*:**|*http://www.steinberg.net/

Just googled "Cubase comparison" or "cubase differences".

Seems like a massive research fail if you didn't think to see what Cubase Artist lacked compared to Pro.
Old 26th July 2016
  #48
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thedberg's Avatar
Needs are different. Lack of variaudio is a major reason I *don't* upgrade to Pro. I know I'm not a great singer and I want to be pushed to practice and improve, not lean on technology. And comparing songs from a few years back with what I do today I would say it has worked ok.
Old 27th July 2016
  #49
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Steve Fogal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
I am a fool for not checking this properly but I cannot believe Cubase Artist 8 does not have Variaudio and instead some karioke sounding plugin for pitch correction. What makes Steinberg think an "artist" would not need decent pitch correction tools for his or her music? This is not a "commercial" requirement, but a personal one and am really dissapointed that it is not included. Can you purchase it separately? Any one else find this to be a bit of a dissapointment?
No you're not a "fool" nor did Steinberg do anything particularly wrong. They offer certain features & tools in the levels of products within their line to 'entice' you to buy higher and more costly products. It's a business tactic. It just so happens to be that Vari-Audio was THE thing that was the enticement for me. Some other things people rave about are silly to me, like Chord Track...I played with it, but don't see it as something I'd likely use much, if at all. Vari-Audio on the other hand is a tool I feel I need.

In this case, unfortunately you simply didn't do your homework. I didn't read any replies in this thread, so maybe this has been suggested...that you can possibly upgrade from Artist To the full version. In my own case, I was able to find the full version at the Artist price! My choice was very simple
Old 27th July 2016 | Show parent
  #50
Company Rep
 
DAW PLUS's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteinTurd View Post
... Isn't that "curious"? I agree with the original post, as an artist who has worked alongside engineers in studio for roughly 10 years, it was so OBVIOUS to me that buying Cubase for my basic "Artist" needs, I would need to have the equivalent of "Melodyne" incorporated into the workflow. If you have tight recordings and you're not making electronic music it is literally one of the most BASIC tools a traditional songwriter/recording "Artist" needs. This is one of the main reasons I chose Cubase over other DAW's. I DID do my research, and apparently, I did not do enough. I GET that Steinberg is entitled to charge more for "Pro," for its extra features, but I find it more than "curious" how the draw of this incorporated feature and functionality literally amounts to nothing, unless you pay twice.
Many features which are added in Pro base on license costs they are paying themselves. Also, many artists do NOT need it. Added to that, "Artist" is a tag they gave the entry level version, although it is not just for artists.

As a side note: I don't think many people will take your comments on Steinberg products serious if you use a tag like that, it only shows you are on a mission.
Old 28th July 2016 | Show parent
  #51
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Steve Fogal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
Needs are different. Lack of variaudio is a major reason I *don't* upgrade to Pro. I know I'm not a great singer and I want to be pushed to practice and improve, not lean on technology. And comparing songs from a few years back with what I do today I would say it has worked ok.
I used to feel this way generally. I'm not a great singer either, but I do try the best I can 1st, I do many, many multiple takes, and at some point, I can't do any better. Then I comp those takes for the very best of, down to individual words & even syllables where I can...keeping my best sounding words, and eliminating the ugly sounds. When it's all said & done, much less pitch correction is needed, but I feel a little pitch correction benefits me.

I read that Brittony Spears sand a song 100 times, then they comped for her best of, and used pitch correction. If people you hear on the radio use all the tools to produce the best they can, why can't we.
Old 28th July 2016
  #52
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outlaw241's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
it seems to me Steinberg has aways been after the money. I got tired of paying for bugfixes so I moved on DAWs but Cubase was so feature rich it made that transition difficult
Old 28th July 2016 | Show parent
  #53
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thedberg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Fogal View Post
I used to feel this way generally. I'm not a great singer either, but I do try the best I can 1st, I do many, many multiple takes, and at some point, I can't do any better. Then I comp those takes for the very best of, down to individual words & even syllables where I can...keeping my best sounding words, and eliminating the ugly sounds. When it's all said & done, much less pitch correction is needed, but I feel a little pitch correction benefits me.

I read that Brittony Spears sand a song 100 times, then they comped for her best of, and used pitch correction. If people you hear on the radio use all the tools to produce the best they can, why can't we.
Just to clarify. I don't deny that pitch correction can be used as a valid form of expression. But it's it's not part of my musical palette for now.
Old 28th July 2016
  #54
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post

Variaudio is Elastique.....Zplane makes it for Steinberg. In fact I think zplane supplies ALL the daw makers with this technology. So just go to zplane and buy Elastique and there you are.
Is that true? I thought VariAudio did *not* use Elastique, but rather some algorithm called "Standard Solo" or something like that?
Old 28th July 2016 | Show parent
  #55
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Steve Fogal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw241 View Post
it seems to me Steinberg has aways been after the money. I got tired of paying for bugfixes so I moved on DAWs but Cubase was so feature rich it made that transition difficult
While they do indeed practice money grubbing strategies, in which no one except a fan-boy can deny, no one is pulling anyone's arm either. It's all about 'enticements' and these enticements are bait on Steinberg's fishing line, in which many Cubaser's take the bite...unfortunately many don't really 'need' it, but the power of Steiny compels them like sheep following each other off of a steep cliff! "Guide us Landru"!
Old 28th July 2016 | Show parent
  #56
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Steve Fogal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
Just to clarify. I don't deny that pitch correction can be used as a valid form of expression. But it's it's not part of my musical palette for now.
Right, as is anyone's choice with 'any' feature & tools they choose to use, or not. There are so many features that I've never even bothered with over the years myself. I have never, and never will scratch the surface of what something like Cubase can do.

As for my own use with pitch correction, I use it to correct my intonation, not as an expression or adding an effect etc. I don't have perfect pitch, but when somethings off, I can hear it, it's these parts that I want to correct. It really takes practice & skill to use pitch correction properly IMO...and I'm still working on it.
Old 28th July 2016 | Show parent
  #57
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Steve Fogal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
Variaudio is Elastique.....Zplane makes it for Steinberg. In fact I think zplane supplies ALL the daw makers with this technology. So just go to zplane and buy Elastique and there you are.
I've only heard of Elastigue, and never heard of Zplane. But where did you get this information from?

Since I now have Vari-Audio I guess I have no need to worry about it.
Old 28th July 2016 | Show parent
  #58
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ataylor's Avatar
Really O.o.. well if your in the states... sweetwater.com . will let you split up your payment over 3 months.. so makes things even like this affordable.. also steinberg is having a 40% off sale on upgrades at the moment... and sweetwater is also honoring it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LGK_Dude View Post
Surprised to find that Cubase Artist does NOT have VariAudio!! Of course I use Cubase 8, but wanted to get the vocalist in my band to switch from Logic, but without VariAudio there is no way he is going to switch (loves to be able to correct his pitch as well as drag notes around to create interesting melodies and harmonies, etc. (can't afford Cubase full)
Old 29th July 2016
  #59
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Fogal View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
Variaudio is Elastique.....Zplane makes it for Steinberg. In fact I think zplane supplies ALL the daw makers with this technology. So just go to zplane and buy Elastique and there you are.
I've only heard of Elastigue, and never heard of Zplane. But where did you get this information from?

Since I now have Vari-Audio I guess I have no need to worry about it.
As in post #54 , I question whether VariAudio uses another algorithm (Standard Solo?), not Elastique.

A year or two ago the Steinberg moderator was adamant that Elastique didn't sound as good as the algorithm they chose to use in VariAudio, so they didn't feel the need to change over to Elastique.

Maybe since the latest Elastique was released they did some detailed testing and decided it was the best algorithm for VariAudio after all. I haven't read that anywhere, has anyone else? If not, I think it's safe to say VariAudio *doesn't* use Elastique, for better or worse.
Old 29th July 2016 | Show parent
  #60
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis View Post
I question whether VariAudio uses another algorithm (Standard Solo?), not Elastique.
I guess one must read the below and make of it what you will......

As to Elastique v2 and/or v3....

Discussion of it in December for Cubase 8 (ie at the time whether v2 would be updated to v3 elastique by steinberg)
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/vie...?f=198&t=60639


And as to variaudio, from zplane's site.....

élastique Tune: Pitch Correction SDK

zplane present élastique Tune, a licensable software technology for correcting pitch and timing of single-voiced audio signals.
élastique Tune is a technology for manipulating the pitch and the timing of monophonic audio signals. It provides access to high level musical parameters and allows the developer to easily modify both melody and performance characteristics. élastique Tune is based on the highly acclaimed élastique SOLOIST engine which powers products such as Steinberg's VariAudio and FL Studio's Newtone.
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