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Cubase 8 new editing Scheme to improve workflow ? DAW Software
Old 30th July 2014
  #1
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muziksculp's Avatar
 

Cubase 8 new editing Scheme to improve workflow ?

Hi,

Do you think Steinberg will have a new Editing, and Plug-in Window Management Scheme/Design ?

Basically to improve overall workflow when opening plug-ins, editor windows,... etc. ? Which will improve the way we interact with the various plug-in windows, editors ...etc. ?

I feel this is one of the primary areas that Cubase 8 should focus on, besides all the other improvements, and bells and whistles they plan to add.

Do you feel this is the primary area that Steinberg should focus on ... Improve Workflow via a new, and improved windows management system. If you think Cubase 8 should focus on improving something else as the primary focus, I would be interested in knowing what that is.


Your feedback on this would be interesting.

Cheers,
Muziksculp
Old 31st July 2014
  #2
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Animus's Avatar
 

Can you be a little specific on what you mean? How would windows and plugins guis open up and you interact with them differently?
Old 31st July 2014
  #3
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muziksculp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
Can you be a little specific on what you mean? How would windows and plugins guis open up and you interact with them differently?
Basically, I'm referring to a new system of consolidating VST Instruments/Effects, reducing the need to manage, and organize floating windows, and making it more tidy to work, improve the overall workflow. i.e. When you have multiple VST Instruments open, it can get a bit messy to manage the various plug-in editors.

For example, when I place a VST Instrument editor window on top of the Mix-Console on my second monitor, if I click on the Mix-Console, the VST editor on top disappears. Even when I have set it to appear always on top. It's this type of window management that interferes with a smooth, productive workflow, and slows things down, wasting time dealing with this type of thing, is what I would like them to improve.

i.e. I think Studio One Pro has a nice tab system, that you can use to switch between the various VSTs you want to edit. Something of this nature would be very nice to have in Cubase 8. or maybe even a better way to do it.

I have no clue if Steinberg is focusing on this type of improvements, but that's the primary area I would like them to focus on, and improve in Cubase 8.

Cheers,
Muziksculp
Old 31st July 2014
  #4
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Animus's Avatar
 

Yeah I think if they just fix the plugs being lost behind the mixer that would go a long way
Old 31st July 2014
  #5
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stella645's Avatar
 

Quote:
For example, when I place a VST Instrument editor window on top of the Mix-Console on my second monitor, if I click on the Mix-Console, the VST editor on top disappears.
Yeah this isn't really a required workflow improvement...It's something they just knuffed up in 7 that they need to fix...wasn't like this in previous versions (though their AOT implementation in general has always been very poor.)

You realise of course if you just don't have the Mixconsole full screen but drag it full screen (and don't have AOT for Mixconsole selected) you will not have the disappearing plugs....it's not as neat as fullscreen as you have the top bar but it's better than having to constantly keep clicking plugin slots to bring the guis back.
Old 1st August 2014
  #6
I prefer the fixed floating tabbed plugin window of Studio One, and the solo button in Sonar. Less lines and 3D borders in the mixer. Selection based temp grouping for edits in the mixer (modifiers set relative levels for all selected faders and panpots, with second modifier for relative widening of 2 panpots).
Old 1st August 2014
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

what stella said ...
Windows management could be made perfectly workable before 7.0 on multi-screen setups, using workspaces, AOT and a few little tricks, though it sure wasn't elegant.
Unfortunately 7.x (all versions) features the unholy combination of :
- messed up focus system
- broken mixer zoom
- new mixer not really being integrated into workspaces
so that's that for now.

Once Steinberg has fixed that trainwreck (remains to be seen if they can), the biggest workflow areas where Cubase could use an upgrade imho are :
- multi-track audio editing (free warp etc)
- a modern, plugin specific controller mapping system like in S-1
- import session data / including the ability to save / load multi-out VSTi complete with associated nested groups
- and maybe a modern plugin manager with user defined sorting and "friendly names"

ymmv,
Rhino
Old 1st August 2014
  #8
That this old MDI window management needs a complete overhaul because of the known problems is confirmed by Steinberg.
If I remember correctly it was announced for Cubase 8 by Helge Voigt (Steinberg product manager) he also stated why they first started with the new mixer console in C7 instead of a new window management.
The details we will see hopefully in some month (I expect C8 in Q4 2014 or Q1 2015)
Old 1st August 2014
  #9
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Quote:
multi-track audio editing (free warp etc)
As long as they don't introduce multi track warp but leave the elastic timing bug unfixed
Old 1st August 2014
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stella645 View Post
As long as they don't introduce multi track warp but leave the elastic timing bug unfixed
... ain't it a shame we even have to mention this ?
we're talking about wannabe professional software.
Sure, bugs can happen, no problem, as long as they're getting fixed asap (talking weeks, not years).
Frequent hotfixes (who cares whether they're officially supported or not) and stable point releases are the way to go.
And if a big change (like the mixer) is not ready @ the planned release time, better keep the working status quo as a user-selectable option or wait with the release until it's fully ready for prime time.

ymmnv,
Rhino
Old 2nd August 2014
  #11
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by muziksculp View Post
Basically, I'm referring to a new system of consolidating VST Instruments/Effects, reducing the need to manage, and organize floating windows, and making it more tidy to work, improve the overall workflow. i.e. When you have multiple VST Instruments open, it can get a bit messy to manage the various plug-in editors.

For example, when I place a VST Instrument editor window on top of the Mix-Console on my second monitor, if I click on the Mix-Console, the VST editor on top disappears. Even when I have set it to appear always on top. It's this type of window management that interferes with a smooth, productive workflow, and slows things down, wasting time dealing with this type of thing, is what I would like them to improve.

i.e. I think Studio One Pro has a nice tab system, that you can use to switch between the various VSTs you want to edit. Something of this nature would be very nice to have in Cubase 8. or maybe even a better way to do it.

I have no clue if Steinberg is focusing on this type of improvements, but that's the primary area I would like them to focus on, and improve in Cubase 8.

Cheers,
Muziksculp
Oh, 'consolidated windows'? See Digital Performer 8.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #12
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4damind View Post
That this old MDI window management needs a complete overhaul because of the known problems is confirmed by Steinberg.
If I remember correctly it was announced for Cubase 8 by Helge Voigt (Steinberg product manager) he also stated why they first started with the new mixer console in C7 instead of a new window management.
The details we will see hopefully in some month (I expect C8 in Q4 2014 or Q1 2015)
I really hope they get this right.

Alistair
Old 3rd August 2014
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stella645 View Post
You realise of course if you just don't have the Mixconsole full screen but drag it full screen (and don't have AOT for Mixconsole selected) you will not have the disappearing plugs....
But you will have the broken channel zoom issue, where the channels are changing size when closing/re-opening.

The whole thing (mix console) is a bloody mess of half-baked solution, contradicting each other.
Not to mention the "Focusing issue"
Old 3rd August 2014
  #14
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greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I really hope they get this right.

Alistair
You can only build so many additions to a house until its time for a new house...or move. The new mix console feels like a huge addition without any plans or permits, and plenty of building code violations.

Windows management needs to be #1 priority.

Next, fix the things that need fixing! This won't attract new users or satisfy users who believe Cubase7/7.5 is utopia, but it will go a long ways restoring some type of confidence that Steinberg hasn't abandoned every-day users.

Steinberg needs to consider long-time loyal every-day users who continue to pay for upgrades hoping for the basics....improved function and workflow.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #15
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muziksculp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
Windows management needs to be #1 priority.
Yup ! That's exactly how I feel.

Hopefully Steinberg is planning to put this on their top priorities, and deliver a slick new Windows mgmt. system. that will make us very happy when Cubase 8 is released.

Cheers,
Muziksculp
Old 3rd August 2014
  #16
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
Windows management needs to be #1 priority.
I agree and I suspect many at Steinberg probably agreed too but Yamaha wanted/needed to release their Nuage system that itself needed a new mixer view in Cubendo so Yamaha made the new mixer view the #1 priority with all the chaos and mess that has ensued...

Alistair
Old 3rd August 2014
  #17
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I opened 6.5.5 today by accident and I forgot how simple and utilitarian the insert slot section was before C7. The insert section in 7/7.5 just seems so random and I waste empty clicks even after months of using it. Big slot spaces, click on different areas that aren't differentiated for different things to pop up.

Also, when I move tracks up and down the arrangement window, sometimes they won't cooperate because the program thinks I'm clicking on where the new picture icons should be. The VST rack window has improved with 7.5 but it's seems unnecessarily large and wastes a lot of space for no clear reason.

I don't really use the mixer much and never really had to before. With the new changes, I use it even less. I wish they would just streamline and tighten up these things already, along with a refined window management and no-brainer workflow improvements like bounce in place and a group/send auto creation scheme of some sort.

Not sure if this happens for everyone else, but the cpu meter constantly has the red warning light lit up as if I've spiked even though I haven't. Little things like this should be taken care of by a version 7.5.2.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #18
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zephonic's Avatar
FWIW, I think Cubase's current floating windows work perfectly with OSX Expose/Mission Control. One click/swipe, and you see all the windows open in the application, you click/tap on the one you want and it comes to the foreground. Couldn't be simpler or better implemented.

But it is different for Windows users, of course.
Old 4th August 2014
  #19
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
FWIW, I think Cubase's current floating windows work perfectly with OSX Expose/Mission Control. One click/swipe, and you see all the windows open in the application, you click/tap on the one you want and it comes to the foreground. Couldn't be simpler or better implemented.
I would be curious to try Cubase on a Mac with three screens once just to see how it behaves. That said... I'm not a big fan of how OS X handles windows and applications for any software and don't like the single switching menu bar at the top so I doubt it would be entirely to my liking. Still... curious.

Alistair
Old 4th August 2014
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muziksculp View Post
Yup ! That's exactly how I feel.

Hopefully Steinberg is planning to put this on their top priorities, and deliver a slick new Windows mgmt. system. that will make us very happy when Cubase 8 is released.

Cheers,
Muziksculp
Cubase 8 with the current feature set and a windows UI a la Logic or S1 would be a dangerously powerful DAW. Steinberg could also come up with a totally new way of handling things(not like they never innovate in the past ) that would blow everything else out of the water...

KA
Old 4th August 2014
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I would be curious to try Cubase on a Mac with three screens once just to see how it behaves. That said... I'm not a big fan of how OS X handles windows and applications for any software and don't like the single switching menu bar at the top so I doubt it would be entirely to my liking.
I posted a screencast here a few years ago. I was still on SnowLeopard then, but the basics haven't changed very much:



Never tried this on a multi-display setup, though. Last time I used Cubase on multiple displays, I did not yet know about this! But I rather feel that this functionality somewhat negates the need for another display.

I agree that the single-switching menu bar is not always ideal from a mouse-driven perspective, but Mission Control addresses all of that. It takes about 5 minutes to learn, and after that switching between apps and windows is superfast, easy and pretty seamless.
Old 4th August 2014
  #22
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UnderTow's Avatar
Reading some of the comments here I would just like to urge Steinberg not to try to reinvent the wheel. Steinberg tried to reinvent the mixer and that was not a great success. (I would call it a failure).

What many of us are complaining about as far as the window management is concerned is that we want things to work simply and logically. That just means ALL windows draggable outside the main window. An Always-On-Top function that works as the name would imply. A full screen mixer that is equivalent to your desktop background and behind which NOTHING can ever disappear. Dedicated key commands not subject to focus issues. (I want key commands assigned to zoom the arrange window to ALWAYS zoom the arrange window and not the mixer. Let me assign other keys to that. That is just so annoying. I want things like the Quick-Link Key command to always work so that I can quick link channels from the arrange view too etc etc. Basically, no focus dependant key commands at all as far as I am concerned). No functions and buttons that only appear when you hover over them. Intelligent focus on things. Having to click all the time is a real pain. (I've described this elsewhere on this forum. Feel free to ask for more details). Etc.

Once Steinberg have these basic things sorted out to perfection, then and only then should they move on to any kind of embellishment or extra functions like some are mentioning here. And if Steinberg add things like windows that tab or whatever, make sure that users have a choice to disable or not use the new feature. We might like it but we might not. Don't force stuff on us that we possibly do not want.

Thanks.

Alistair
Old 4th August 2014
  #23
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
I posted a screencast here a few years ago. I was still on SnowLeopard then, but the basics haven't changed very much:



Never tried this on a multi-display setup, though. Last time I used Cubase on multiple displays, I did not yet know about this! But I rather feel that this functionality somewhat negates the need for another display.

I agree that the single-switching menu bar is not always ideal from a mouse-driven perspective, but Mission Control addresses all of that. It takes about 5 minutes to learn, and after that switching between apps and windows is superfast, easy and pretty seamless.
Thanks for the video! In theory you can do something similar to what you do in Windows (expect that the windows are kind of stacked diagonally instead of layed out flat like with Expose) but part of the problem is that it doesn't work with Cubase!

With Cubase on Windows all the plugin windows etc are child windows of the main window. What that means is that if you select any other application, all the plugin windows or Media Bay or anything else that is outside the main Cubase window disappears so there is nothing to click on to switch! (Highly annoying! Imagine having a new plugin open, open the PDF manual beside the plugin to check up on a few functions and features, click on the manual to scroll and the plugin vanishes so you can't actually just keep the plugin window open while navigating the manual. You keep having to navigate the manual then click back on Cubase so that you can see the plugin again ).

I wouldn't work exactly like you (I have 3 screens and like to have the arrange view and mixers or video fully maximized) but the issue isn't really Windows. It is the way Cubase is implemented on Windows. That is why so many of us are complaining.

Alistair
Old 4th August 2014
  #24
Gear Nut
Great suggestions. Unfortunately Cubase 8 will feature:
1. 27 New user selectable shapes to bounce along the lyrics during playback.
2. Auto obscenity mute plugin. Comes with seven "dirty" words from the factory but you can add more as needed. Cubase 8 will automatically go into record mode during any freeze-ups to facilitate this.
Old 4th August 2014
  #25
Gear Nut
I wish Cubase 8 is able to:
1. display and edit multiple automations just like multiple CC lanes in piano roll window.
2. able to move all automations when moving object instead of selecting both object and automation region.
3. redesign of mixer. (Logic Pro X has the best mixer design imo)
Old 4th August 2014
  #26
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by holywilly View Post
I wish Cubase 8 is able to:
1. display and edit multiple automations just like multiple CC lanes in piano roll window.
You can display multiple controller lanes in the piano roll. Under the right click menu select "Create Controller Lane" to add controller lanes. Unfortunately you can't edit them at the same time.

Quote:
2. able to move all automations when moving object instead of selecting both object and automation region.
Under the Edit menu, turn on "Automation Follows Events".

Alistair
Old 4th August 2014
  #27
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklion View Post
Also, when I move tracks up and down the arrangement window, sometimes they won't cooperate because the program thinks I'm clicking on where the new picture icons should be.
This is indeed annoying (and stupid). The number of times I have clicked on the region to drag a track and nothing happens... Just let us drag the tracks even if we click on the icon region by accident. It isn't like it does anything else. It just does nothing. And this is another of those invisible regions in Cubase. Invisible regions or buttons that only appear when you hover/click on them are bad.

Quote:
The VST rack window has improved with 7.5 but it's seems unnecessarily large and wastes a lot of space for no clear reason.
I never use the rack because it wastes so much space. There should be a minimalistic mode in which you can fit a maximum number of instruments. Currently you can't have more than 9 rack slots visible at the same time. That just isn't enough.

I would like a mode that basically just shows the top row (Power/edit/freeze buttons, instrument name, I/O and that's it) and with a minimum of fake 3D bezels etc so that we can have 30 or so slots visible at the same time.

Talking about Instruments, I would like to be able to Disable instrument tracks in the same way that we can Disable audio tracks. (And that includes making the track darker so we can quickly scan a project and see which tracks are active or disabled).

Quote:
I don't really use the mixer much and never really had to before. With the new changes, I use it even less. I wish they would just streamline and tighten up these things already, along with a refined window management and no-brainer workflow improvements like bounce in place and a group/send auto creation scheme of some sort.
I have many ideas about the mixer, the inspector and other things but I would like Steinberg to focus on streamlining what is already there and fixing bugs and focus issues first. So I'll keep those ideas to myself for now.

Alistair
Old 6th August 2014
  #28
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
You can display multiple controller lanes in the piano roll. Under the right click menu select "Create Controller Lane" to add controller lanes. Unfortunately you can't edit them at the same time.

Alistair
I know that I'm able to create multiple CC lanes, but here I'm talking about display multiple track automation such as volume, pan, fx automation.....etc.
Old 6th August 2014
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holywilly View Post
I know that I'm able to create multiple CC lanes, but here I'm talking about display multiple track automation such as volume, pan, fx automation.....etc.
Well my friend, either I totally misunderstand you or you should RTFM
You can show a single or as many automation lanes as you want. Selecting what automation lane you want to use is a bit old, but simple enough to do.
As far as I can remember it has been possible since I started using Nuendo v3.
Old 6th August 2014
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holywilly View Post
I know that I'm able to create multiple CC lanes, but here I'm talking about display multiple track automation such as volume, pan, fx automation.....etc.
I display multiple track automation such as volume, pan, fx, and most any parameter from any VST or VSTI that I use every day I use Cubase....for many years.

Or am I not understanding something here?
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