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I don't get volume automation!?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
I don't get volume automation!?

After years and years of using Cubase I still don't get how to do volume automation.

Let's say I've done some volume rides on a vocal track. Then I want to raise the whole vocal track 2 db, just nudge it a bit. But I can't find an easy peasy way to do that.

Yeah, I can just create a new group and put the move there. And with audio I can do clip gain (which I do all the time). But where is the simple nudge? Have I missed out on something among the modes and functions and fill options?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
DeadPoet's Avatar
1) select all nodes on the volume automation track and in-/decrease them by the desired amount. There is probably a shortkey somewhere to do "select all events on selected track" to do that easily.

2) with 16 insert slots available you must have at least one available. Insert any plugin at the end (Frequency is my preferred one) and in-/decrease to the desired amount




#2 is what I do all the time. On mix revisions I have even inserted a second and/or third instance to be able to track mix revisions easier.




Herwig
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Gear Guru
 

#3 :

Select "Preview" and "touch" in the automation panel, set your "fill" to "To start" and "To end", adjust fader, punch. That should work.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadPoet View Post
1) select all nodes on the volume automation track and in-/decrease them by the desired amount. There is probably a shortkey somewhere to do "select all events on selected track" to do that easily.

2) with 16 insert slots available you must have at least one available. Insert any plugin at the end (Frequency is my preferred one) and in-/decrease to the desired amount




#2 is what I do all the time. On mix revisions I have even inserted a second and/or third instance to be able to track mix revisions easier.




Herwig
1. Hmm... might look into setting up a shortcut or two for that.
2. Yeah. There is that option too.
Both: downside is that I can’t use the fader on my CC121 to do the rides. Well, well.

Thanks for input
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
#3 :

Select "Preview" and "touch" in the automation panel, set your "fill" to "To start" and "To end", adjust fader, punch. That should work.
Interesting. I’ll try that!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
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OliverV's Avatar
 

What you're describing is automation trim.

Open the automation panel and engage trim mode (button top right). Enable write and you'll see a new line appear.

This will give you another automation line so you can further fine-tune your original one.

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_ar...on_trim_c.html
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverV View Post
What you're describing is automation trim.

Open the automation panel and engage trim mode (button top right). Enable write and you'll see a new line appear.

This will give you another automation line so you can further fine-tune your original one.

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_ar...on_trim_c.html
Thanks. I read the manual and tried that. But it only affects segments, not the whole track. Maybe I should combine with To Start and To End and punch like mattiasnyc suggested. Or am I doing something else wrong?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Here for the gear
 

I haven't been using Cubase for for a long while... do they not have VCAs?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Gear Head
Channel gain?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
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OliverV's Avatar
 

If you want to quickly glue a track together prior to applying trim you could use a simple key command macro: Edit - Select All On Tracks; Edit - Glue


Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
Thanks. I read the manual and tried that. But it only affects segments, not the whole track. Maybe I should combine with To Start and To End and punch like mattiasnyc suggested. Or am I doing something else wrong?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
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OliverV's Avatar
 

Yep, that’s another option…!


Quote:
Originally Posted by BStone View Post
I haven't been using Cubase for for a long while... do they not have VCAs?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
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OliverV's Avatar
 

This can indeed sometimes be the quickest way to do a simple level nudge, if that’s all you need to do, with the important caveat that it will subsequently impact the signal levels going into any inserts on the channel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsjah View Post
Channel gain?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
Thanks. I read the manual and tried that. But it only affects segments, not the whole track. Maybe I should combine with To Start and To End and punch like mattiasnyc suggested. Or am I doing something else wrong?
Just try it. Open up a clean project and play around with automation settings to get a feel for them. You can also assign key commands to different functions as well as create macros.

If you want to use VCAs then do some testing before you do and make sure you read up on how they work - especially if you're on Cubase. There at least used to be a difference between how VCAs worked in Cubase versus Nuendo, and in at least Nuendo writing automation nodes at the beginning of the timeline on all VCA channels and all channels that the VCAs control is pretty much essential, regardless of what you do after.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by BStone View Post
I haven't been using Cubase for for a long while... do they not have VCAs?
Yup. But was hoping for a way to achieve it without adding even more tracks to projects that tend to be a bit confusing for my little brain anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsjah View Post
Channel gain?
That would effect gain dependent insert plugins so not a good habit (if that isn't what you want, of course).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverV View Post
If you want to quickly glue a track together prior to applying trim you could use a simple key command macro: Edit - Select All On Tracks; Edit - Glue
Hmm.... interesting. But I kinda like having my tracks unglued for editing song structure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Just try it. Open up a clean project and play around with automation settings to get a feel for them. You can also assign key commands to different functions as well as create macros.

If you want to use VCAs then do some testing before you do and make sure you read up on how they work - especially if you're on Cubase. There at least used to be a difference between how VCAs worked in Cubase versus Nuendo, and in at least Nuendo writing automation nodes at the beginning of the timeline on all VCA channels and all channels that the VCAs control is pretty much essential, regardless of what you do after.
Might look into VCA:s more. My habit is not to use them much... But as I said above: I was hoping to avoid adding tracks.

I have read up more, tested on an empty track and watched videos. The closest thing I've found is using Trim, head to 1.1.1.0 and use the mouse to trim the whole track. Doesn't work with the fader so you need to go to the project rather than the mixer.

Conclusion
There's no way to nudge volume using the fader while keeping automation.

But please, keep challenging me on that conclusion
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
I have read up more, tested on an empty track and watched videos. The closest thing I've found is using Trim, head to 1.1.1.0 and use the mouse to trim the whole track. Doesn't work with the fader so you need to go to the project rather than the mixer.

Conclusion
There's no way to nudge volume using the fader while keeping automation.

But please, keep challenging me on that conclusion
There are two separate 'parts' to this:

1) the conditions that determine when automation is written...

2) the conditions that determine where automation is written...

So by using "Touch" + "Trim" you are writing automation whenever you touch the fader, and the automation that is written is an "offset" of the automation that already exists. In other words when you say there's no way to keep automation that is incorrect. "Trim" does exactly that. It "keeps" the automation and "nudges" it, or "trims" or "offsets" it.

The second part above is possibly where you run into a problem. Obviously you don't want to sit with your finger on the fader for an entire song. You could use "Latch" instead of "Touch", and that would allow you to set the offset (trim amount) once and stop touching the fader and it would continue to write the offset as long as you are rolling. But that's the thing, in both those cases you're writing automation only while you are rolling (playing back).

That's where in at least Nuendo the other automation options play a part. By setting "fill" options you basically tell the system where to write automation. The way that should work is that if you for example set your parameters to:

- touch
- trim
- fill to end
- fill to start

and then start playback... then grabbing the fader should again offset the existing value and keep the existing automation, and when you release the fader what should happen is that the fill parameters 'activate' - in other words when you release that same offset you were at when you released the faders should write "to end" and "to start" automatically.

Just try it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
There are two separate 'parts' to this:

That's where in at least Nuendo the other automation options play a part. By setting "fill" options you basically tell the system where to write automation. The way that should work is that if you for example set your parameters to:

- touch
- trim
- fill to end
- fill to start

and then start playback... then grabbing the fader should again offset the existing value and keep the existing automation, and when you release the fader what should happen is that the fill parameters 'activate' - in other words when you release that same offset you were at when you released the faders should write "to end" and "to start" automatically.

Just try it.
Tried it The fill settings don't work with Trim on, only with it off. So it still doesn't make it work the way I hoped.

But thanks a lot for the effort. It's fun to keep learning!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
Tried it The fill settings don't work with Trim on, only with it off. So it still doesn't make it work the way I hoped.
That's the way it should work. I'll check in Nuendo and post a bug report if it's not working.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Guru
 

Yep, broken.

I'll report it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Yep, broken.

I'll report it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
Gear Head
 
zenseven's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
After years and years of using Cubase I still don't get how to do volume automation.

Let's say I've done some volume rides on a vocal track. Then I want to raise the whole vocal track 2 db, just nudge it a bit. But I can't find an easy peasy way to do that.

Yeah, I can just create a new group and put the move there. And with audio I can do clip gain (which I do all the time). But where is the simple nudge? Have I missed out on something among the modes and functions and fill options?
too lazy to type but made video...is this what you’re looking for?

https://youtu.be/LDaFU0Ri-FU
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 

My hack way of automating volume is to put a plugin like Trim or Gain in my inserts and do my automation there, leaving the fader free for normal usage.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
My hack way of automating volume is to put a plugin like Trim or Gain in my inserts and do my automation there, leaving the fader free for normal usage.
I will never understand why that would be a better way of doing things than exactly the opposite... "normal use" IS automating the faders. It's been that way for decades.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I will never understand why that would be a better way of doing things than exactly the opposite... "normal use" IS automating the faders. It's been that way for decades.
For me it's 2 things. One is that whether its on a plugin or in the clip itself, I like to bury my volume automation once it's done. After I've done my corrections, I want to be able to work freely without locked up faders. I consider it part of the editing process so I just close the plugin, hide the automation lane and work as if my dynamic capture was perfect before I start the rest of my mix.

The 2nd reason for me is that I use a Mackie HUI for mixing and having faders moving around while I'm listening can be distracting and a bit noisy sometimes.
Again, if I want to raise or lower something, I can just push a fader and do less mouse moves this way.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
The 2nd reason for me is that I use a Mackie HUI for mixing and having faders moving around while I'm listening can be distracting and a bit noisy sometimes.
Placing the faders in "trim" solves that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
Again, if I want to raise or lower something, I can just push a fader and do less mouse moves this way.
But that's not saving much though since you had to do your moves on the plugin anyway, no?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenseven View Post
too lazy to type but made video...is this what you’re looking for?

https://youtu.be/LDaFU0Ri-FU
Wow. So simple that I'm almost embarrassed that I've never even tried it. Not *exactly* what I was asking for but obviously very useful nonetheless!

Thanks
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenseven View Post
too lazy to type but made video...is this what you’re looking for?

https://youtu.be/LDaFU0Ri-FU
Woah the real Ian Kirkpatrick!
I was just googling stuff soon as I see this I had to make an account.
You are a legend, your work has influenced me so much!
Thank you for the great music in our generation.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Placing the faders in "trim" solves that.



But that's not saving much though since you had to do your moves on the plugin anyway, no?
Doing that actual automation writing is the same amount of work whether it’s written to a fader or a plugin volume.

The difference when doing it to a plug in is that the faders are free and I don’t need to click anything afterwards to change the over all volume of the track.

No right or wrong way here, I just prefer to ignore the automation after it’s written so I don’t automate my faders.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
Doing that actual automation writing is the same amount of work whether it’s written to a fader or a plugin volume.
Assuming you're writing using the mouse then yes, I agree. You open up an automation lane and then you draw stuff.

Touch-sensitive motorized faders however are meant to be moved, so if you're using them then the two are really different ways of achieving level control, not at all the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
The difference when doing it to a plug in is that the faders are free and I don’t need to click anything afterwards to change the over all volume of the track.
Fair enough. In my experience however there's always the risk of either grabbing the wrong fader or moving a fader by mistake or someone else doing it or any other of several things that can go wrong. The easiest solution to that is simply to write automation even if it's static. That way you always get a correct recall when you need it... but once you do that you've also moved away from 'freely moving faders' so at that point one could just as well automate the faders in the first place.

I also think there are a few benefits to having automation on faders simply because of visual feedback and GUI interaction. A lot of DAWs allow you to easily toggle those lanes between visible/hidden, and of course if you're looking at a mixer you always see the automation as it happens unless you engage "trim".

And lastly purely anecdotally - I've never seen anyone be faster with a mouse writing automation than with a fader, nor have I seen (heard) them be more musical. Riding faders to me is far more of a 'musical' thing to do than to draw stuff in. That doesn't mean I never draw automation, I sometimes do, but in my experience it's really a different beast. Now, obviously, if you're doing EDM or something that's not particularly dynamic and is instead pretty static, or "blocky", then that's a non-issue...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenseven View Post
too lazy to type but made video...is this what you’re looking for?

https://youtu.be/LDaFU0Ri-FU
This is what I do. Right click in the automation lane bit of the track list allows you to quickly select all events.

Only problem has been if you have minus infinity values. Then can’t reduce if select all.
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