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Why the lack of Hardware from Yamaha for Steinberg products? Control Surfaces
Old 1 week ago
  #31
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shanabit's Avatar
 

@mattiasnyc.

For ME and all us other poor folk who use Cubase. I think we would just like to see Steinberg make a controller on the lines of a MCU or Behringer X touch, thats pretty much it

I can see their business point though as the market would be small. We Cubase guys are not going to shell out for a Nuage ever
Old 1 week ago
  #32
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Between the s3 and the Nuage there's nothing, but you're now also moving into pretty expensive territory. I'm wondering if anyone who's willing to spend say 7,500 dollars wouldn't also be willing to spend 10,000 dollars for the Nuage. I mean, at that point, how much does that 2,500 really matter?
To be fair, a Nuage fader section AND master section will cost you closer to $25,000. That's about 5 times an S3!
Old 1 week ago
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit View Post
@mattiasnyc.

For ME and all us other poor folk who use Cubase. I think we would just like to see Steinberg make a controller on the lines of a MCU or Behringer X touch, thats pretty much it

I can see their business point though as the market would be small. We Cubase guys are not going to shell out for a Nuage ever
Well, it is what it is. There's the Avid Artist series which are good controllers that are affordable, and then you have all the other cheaper controllers.

- Either petition Steinberg / Yamaha with a list of what those controllers are lacking which is what the desired controllers should contain; along with the desired price point; and make sure there's close to a consensus on what's needed among the users (because they can't make one controller fit everybody's demands and also have it be cheap enough for you to afford)…. or

- Get the cheaper controllers or the Artist and learn how to effectively use what you can afford that is available. Perhaps there are other workflows available that will help you.

All I'm saying is that I see this discussion regularly (it seems to pop up about every 8-10 months or so), and it always includes the same problems:

1. There are absolutely no good controllers.
2. Ok, there are great controllers, but they're too expensive.
3. The cheap controllers don't do what I want. I want X.
4. [other person] And I want Y.
5. [other person] And I want Z. (no consensus)
6. Everyone; For about $1,500, no more.
7. Someone points out that X, Y and Z makes it essentially just like that expensive controller...…
8. Thread dies.
9. Wait 8-10 months.
10. New thread - start at #1 .
Old 1 week ago
  #34
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shanabit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
All I'm saying is that I see this discussion regularly (it seems to pop up about every 8-10 months or so), and it always includes the same problems:

1. There are absolutely no good controllers.
2. Ok, there are great controllers, but they're too expensive.
3. The cheap controllers don't do what I want. I want X.
4. [other person] And I want Y.
5. [other person] And I want Z. (no consensus)
6. Everyone; For about $1,500, no more.
7. Someone points out that X, Y and Z makes it essentially just like that expensive controller...…
8. Thread dies.
9. Wait 8-10 months.
10. New thread - start at #1 .

Agreed. I have a buddy who had the Artist ones, sold them and uses the Behringer X Touch and loves it. Those points remind me of someone switching from Protools to Cubase/Nuendo, points 3-5 specifically. I had the StudioLogic Controller at one point and sold it
Old 1 week ago
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-S-Q View Post
To be fair, a Nuage fader section AND master section will cost you closer to $25,000. That's about 5 times an S3!
Sure, but even a single Nuage section offers more than an s3 does, for Cubendo. So I would argue that if it's between an s3 and the Nuage fader section and money is no object then people will pick Nuage.

So a potential customer is, I think, not going to sit and say "I wish there was a device for $7,500", then spend 5k on an s3 when it's possible to get the Nuage fader unit for 10k. Those extra 2,500 are going to be well spent most likely, and will disappear in the budget over the lifetime of the device for any business. Over three years it's only an additional $70/ month... for a business...

Know what I mean?
Old 1 week ago
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit View Post
Agreed. I have a buddy who had the Artist ones, sold them and uses the Behringer X Touch and loves it. Those points remind me of someone switching from Protools to Cubase/Nuendo, points 3-5 specifically. I had the StudioLogic Controller at one point and sold it
This is exactly why companies like Avid and Steinberg are having a hard time justifying new controllers. The existing ones do the job. At a budget level you now don't even have to spend $500 for an 8-channel fader controller, which is crazy!

I'd love to see a market study done by one of them. I wonder how many units they would expect to sell at a given feature set / price point.
Old 1 week ago
  #37
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Havoc911's Avatar
 

The best controller, in my opinion, is a touch screen. Some of the functions map 1:1 and others are improved by custom macros. It's also less than 1,000 USD.

I understand that some people are turned off by interacting with a screen. I was worried I'd be one of them, but I'd never go back. I may eventually consider a hybrid approach where I also have a physical control surface for fader riding.

Edit: I don't hold out much hope for a controller from Steinberg, as they still haven't managed to implement software improvements we've been asking to have for years (colorized tracks in the mix window, gain reduction meters etc.)
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Sure, but even a single Nuage section offers more than an s3 does, for Cubendo. So I would argue that if it's between an s3 and the Nuage fader section and money is no object then people will pick Nuage.

So a potential customer is, I think, not going to sit and say "I wish there was a device for $7,500", then spend 5k on an s3 when it's possible to get the Nuage fader unit for 10k. Those extra 2,500 are going to be well spent most likely, and will disappear in the budget over the lifetime of the device for any business. Over three years it's only an additional $70/ month... for a business...

Know what I mean?
Yes, I do know what you mean up to a point but you are also forgetting that you can spend $1k on a used Avid Artist Transport and an iPad running the Avid app and you would now have broadly the functionality of the full blown Nuage. Obviously an inferior version of it in many ways but I would argue this is the fairer price comparison.
Old 1 week ago
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-S-Q View Post
Yes, I do know what you mean up to a point but you are also forgetting that you can spend $1k on a used Avid Artist Transport and an iPad running the Avid app and you would now have broadly the functionality of the full blown Nuage. Obviously an inferior version of it in many ways but I would argue this is the fairer price comparison.
I'm not disputing that at all though. I wasn't trying to justify that the Nuage costs 10k+, or that the s3 costs 5k. I was just saying that we essentially don't have many gaps in the product lineup as far as price goes:

$200-1,000 or so.... for users of 1-16 channels, low budget....

$1k-5k.... for users of 8-32 channels, either Artist quality or s3 quality....

$10k+.... for user of 16+ channels and far more expandability / flexibility, plus a better looking proprietary solution... surround panners, Dolby Atmos support etc....

So I'm just saying that I've never seen anyone here or elsewhere complain that there aren't controllers in the 5-10k range. Not once. And my hypothesis is that it's because those who are willing to spend 7.5k are also willing to spend 10k.....
Old 1 week ago
  #40
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
So I'm just saying that I've never seen anyone here or elsewhere complain that there aren't controllers in the 5-10k range. Not once. And my hypothesis is that it's because those who are willing to spend 7.5k are also willing to spend 10k.....
Ok, well let me make take this opportunity to make the first complaint!

I have an Avid S3/Artist Control and it's excellent but it would still be better if it was 100% integrated with Cubase (i.e. made by Steinberg). I would pay 5k for this happily.
Old 1 week ago
  #41
Gear Addict
I actually think the main thing with all these controllers is the software integration. You can choose very cheap hardware of a few hundred pounds or you can go right up to 10's of thousands. This buys you a luxurious, durable and impressive piece of hardware but the workflow value has a huge amount to do with how well the software is implemented.

e.g. You could spend $50k or more on an Avid S6 but with Pro Tools you will still not be able to rearrange the order of plugin parameters on the controller. Terrible in my opinion!
Old 1 week ago
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-S-Q View Post
Ok, well let me make take this opportunity to make the first complaint!

I have an Avid S3/Artist Control and it's excellent but it would still be better if it was 100% integrated with Cubase (i.e. made by Steinberg). I would pay 5k for this happily.
Right.... but that's not $7.5k (for example).
Old 1 week ago
  #43
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Right.... but that's not $7.5k (for example).
No, it's not $7.5k. I meant 5k GBP/£ so, that's $6,385.00 I am making a complaint that there is not a suitable controller for the exact price of $6,385.00
Old 1 week ago
  #44
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ok then...
Old 1 week ago
  #45
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greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit View Post
@mattiasnyc.

For ME and all us other poor folk who use Cubase. I think we would just like to see Steinberg make a controller on the lines of a MCU or Behringer X touch, thats pretty much it

I can see their business point though as the market would be small. We Cubase guys are not going to shell out for a Nuage ever
Houston? That didn't go so well. Maybe Steinberg learned a lesson?

When you say "along the lines of" are you asking for a controller like MC protocol, but with more specific Cubase functions?

Or another way to ask...differentiate between any current MC protocol controller and one you would like to see?
Old 1 week ago
  #46
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Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
Houston? That didn't go so well. Maybe Steinberg learned a lesson?
Probably yes, did they make the right conclusion? I don't think so.
Old 1 week ago
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
When you say "along the lines of" are you asking for a controller like MC protocol, but with more specific Cubase functions?

Or another way to ask...differentiate between any current MC protocol controller and one you would like to see?
It never goes well if you dont SUPPORT the product which Steinbug didn't with the Houston.

Yes, a MCU with added Cubase functions like from the CC121, something like that.
Old 1 week ago
  #48
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greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Probably yes, did they make the right conclusion? I don't think so.
Houston happened quite a while back. I would assume if it was tried again it would be up to Yamaha. As it stands, there are a few things Steinberg could alter with MC protocol for vast integration improvement, but they have not...for whatever reasons. Logic has made these improvements.

It would be interesting to know the percentage of cubase users using any type of DAW controller. Then also, the percentage using a controller under MC protocol.

I'm guessing they have this data, and that is why nothing happens...the numbers don't justify the R&D. Yes it happened with Houston, but under different ownership, and as said, not much support.
Old 1 week ago
  #49
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What do you guys mean by "support"?
Old 1 week ago
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
What do you guys mean by "support"?
That is a good question. (And quite hard to pinpoint)
If something is supported, it means that it is part of the system and if something is not working it will be fixed with priority.

1. Supported - this is what we work with; it is part of the ecosystem.
2. Maintained - nothing is added. Only degrades will be fixed.
3. End of life - it is working but, it soon might not.
4. After EOL. Some configurations still might work. No one will care. You are on your own.
5. Dead. Sorry you need to use your old system with this.

There should also be a public EOL schema where the time for phasing out supported parts is postulated.
For a professional system you should be able to have a SLA on 1&2. Service as in actually fixing the code if needed. A moron telling you to reinstall your system without having a clue is not Service in professional environment.

And of course there can be restrictions and requirements of the above for external factors like OS version, firmware etc.
Old 1 week ago
  #51
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greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
What do you guys mean by "support"?
I never purchased a Houston, but I remember initially a lot of forum complaints about functions not working as intended, and then the hopeful requested fixes. Maybe someone will comment here who had/has a Houston about specifics.

There seems to be a never-ending plea for DAW hardware controllers that are "reasonably priced" but go beyond MCU.

I think it's worthy to note that in the past several years, the development of the Behringer X-touch took many years to release beyond it's target date. The same happened with the Qcon ProX. It first appeared as an empty box with knobs at a Winter Namm with a release date for 3rd quarter of the same year. I believe the working unit was actually released 2 years beyond the target date.
Old 1 week ago
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
I think it's worthy to note that in the past several years, the development of the Behringer X-touch took many years to release beyond it's target date. The same happened with the Qcon ProX. It first appeared as an empty box with knobs at a Winter Namm with a release date for 3rd quarter of the same year. I believe the working unit was actually released 2 years beyond the target date.
Yes, it's good to note that. And that is in addition to the unit being just close to a "clone" of the Mackie.
Old 1 week ago
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
What do you guys mean by "support"?
Really? You need this defined?
Old 1 week ago
  #54
Gear Nut
I see a lot of comments saying they wished Steinberg made a controller similar to a product that already works with Cubase(/Nuendo.)
So my question is, what do you need from a controller that you cannot already do with third party controllers specifically?
If you list it all there is a lot of variety for different needs.

A list with just motorized faders:

For the single fader:

Presonus Faderport
Steinberg CC121

Multiple faders:

Presonus Faderport16
Behringer x-touch line
ICON's entire series
MCU Pro + XT
Avid Artist
Avid S3
Nucleus 2
AVID S6
Yamaha Nuage



Asking due to thinking of switching to Cubase at the end of this year.
Old 1 week ago
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit View Post
Really? You need this defined?
People define "support" differently. So 'yes', I "need" their definition of the term.

I'm 100% sure that a lot of users define the word differently from what any relevant legal document says about it.
Old 1 week ago
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
People define "support" differently. So 'yes', I "need" their definition of the term.

I'm 100% sure that a lot of users define the word differently from what any relevant legal document says about it.
So, what says the legal (in your country) ?
Old 1 week ago
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinL View Post

A list with just motorized faders:

For the single fader:

Presonus Faderport
Steinberg CC121
I think the faderport is using the MCU protocol. At least the new one does. It is hard to argument that is has more than one fader. But with the MCU protocol it has 9. And from a cubase point of view it is different. It will not work properly if you have some other controllers. And if they also are MCU's they have to part of the "same" virtual surface. For most people it wont be a problem, but if you have a MCU in control room and want to use the faderport in a live room it will. You can use it and I guess you can add it as a generic remote. But then touch will not be easy to use.
There is also Frontier design (unfortunately discontinued and no longer working with Mac/cubase)
Old 1 week ago
  #58
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinL View Post
I see a lot of comments saying they wished Steinberg made a controller similar to a product that already works with Cubase(/Nuendo.)
So my question is, what do you need from a controller that you cannot already do with third party controllers specifically?
If you list it all there is a lot of variety for different needs.
None of the MCU controllers are satisfactory IMO because the controller displays are limited to 6 characters if I remember rightly. This is simply not enough to display a wide variety of parameters in a clear way.


This leaves Eucon controllers which are very good with Cubase but for example:
When I hide tracks in Cubase, they are still shown on the controller.
When I bank through the controller, I want my mixer/arrange page to reflect that immediately (without having to touch a fader on the controller).
The controller sometimes returns an incorrect volume fader value when you touch a fader.
I could list various other minor issues.

These are all software issues that I presume could be resolved by Steinberg. I don't really care whether the controller is made by Steinberg themselves or if Steinberg just improve implementation of Eucon because the hardware of an Avid S3 is just about my perfect controller.
Old 1 week ago
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
So, what says the legal (in your country) ?
I'm referring to what the seller and manufacturer (respectively) guarantee before purchase as well as what could be encoded in law regardless of what they say. Those are the things we can "count" on or at least demand.

My point was just that most people don't read up on that at all before they make a purchase. They just have some sort of idea in their head about what they deserve (myself included of course).

So you can go back and read in this very section of the forum for example how one person (I think as recently as within the last year) complained about the lack of proper support for Cubase, and how the company sucks. And it took a while before we learned that his version was Cubase 5 (I think), not the latest v9. So now in his mind he still deserved support, and some of us pointed out that regardless of that the version he's currently on is probably never going to change. The de facto support of that old version is zero. Except in his head.

What is "support" to me? Not "this is what we work with; it is part of the ecosystem." "Support" to me is if there is:

a) a way to contact an actual support department
b) get an issue resolved within a reasonable amount of time
c) regular updates that provide minor fixes and improvements

More importantly though, if I was going to make a stink about something I'd probably be more specific and careful about what I say, because of legal implications.

Makes sense?
Old 1 week ago
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-S-Q View Post
None of the MCU controllers are satisfactory IMO because the controller displays are limited to 6 characters if I remember rightly. This is simply not enough to display a wide variety of parameters in a clear way.
Agreed. I have taken to abbreviate all names regardless of whether it's MCU or Eucon though. Just to be consistent. Not saying that's better or the best way to go about things, just offering a workaround (which may or may not suit other people).

In post-production I typically do this:

- All audio tracks lower case only
- All groups upper case only
- Typically no more than 3-4 characters

so it'll look like this;

dia 1 = dialog 1 (the first of several audio tracks with dialog)
nat 1 = "nat" sound, 1 of several
MU = music group channel
V - FX = VCA channel for FX (sound effects)

I find that being consistent with the above makes it easy to see quickly what I'm looking at. I can see at a glance if it's an audio track, a group or a VCA. And it's all the same on any controller and any software (i.e. I do the same on Pro Tools).

So for music I'd do for example;

gtr 1 = guitar 1 audio track
e gtr = electric guitar audio track
acc = acoustic guitar audio track
vox = vocal audio track
B VOX = background vocals group

etc

Anyway, just food for thought. And again, I agree the situation could be better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J-S-Q View Post
This leaves Eucon controllers which are very good with Cubase but for example:
When I hide tracks in Cubase, they are still shown on the controller.
When I bank through the controller, I want my mixer/arrange page to reflect that immediately (without having to touch a fader on the controller).
The controller sometimes returns an incorrect volume fader value when you touch a fader.
I could list various other minor issues.

These are all software issues that I presume could be resolved by Steinberg. I don't really care whether the controller is made by Steinberg themselves or if Steinberg just improve implementation of Eucon because the hardware of an Avid S3 is just about my perfect controller.
Agreed.
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