The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
VCA USELESS on Nuendo 7
Old 25th September 2015
  #1
VCA USELESS on Nuendo 7

Despite having waited for THREE MONTHS for a single maintenance update that would have corrected the previous but with VCAs, not only has it not been fixed but we're now seeing another bug.

So far I see the following issues....

Number 1:

Quote:
1) Create a VCA track
2) Write automation on the VCA track at a point further down the timeline
3) Create an audio track connected to the VCA
4) Write automation on the audio track before the automation on the VCA track
5) Punch out automation write on the audio track
The result here is that from the last automation node of the first pass on the audio track to the first automation node on the second automation pass created by the VCA track there is a linear increase.

Number 2:

Quote:
1. Create Audio Track.

2. Set (global) automation to "Touch", and write simple automation. Write from zero to say -20dBFS, hold a little, then release.

3. Set automation to "Touch" AND "Trim"

4. Create VCA track. Select the Audio track as source.

5. Write automation to the audio track as in step #3.
The level JUMPS to maximum value even though you went from zero gain to minus infinity......


Number 3:

Quote:
1. Create outputs

2. Create a VCA and connect an output to that VCA

3. Save project and quit Nuendo

4. Restart Nuendo and load that project
Connection to VCA gone!!!

This is yet another but that's listed as solved in the release notes (B-10139) yet clearly doesn't work.



At least The first one is a previous issue that Steinberg had three whole months to fix. The second is new to me. I'm incredibly disappointed.


I honestly wonder how on earth these things are allowed to pass beta, QC and management. Absolutely horrible!

Last edited by mattiasnyc; 9th October 2015 at 02:54 AM..
Old 5th October 2015
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Guillermo N's Avatar
 

Hello,

Here where it seems to get a bit complicated. You would expect a straight line of automation when filling. And thus no volume movement. Now when there is a moving VCA connected, you'd you'd probably still want no volume change. Is that correct?
From what I have red on our internal bug base report this behaviour is on the list of future fixes, and should be included on a future maintenance update.

Best regards,
GN
Old 5th October 2015
  #3
I expect exactly the behavior you describe.

So, when can we expect the next update? I mean, we waited what, three months for the last one (first?). Surely this should be a top priority.

If you look at the two bugs that have been described, the one where we get ramps between automation points created by audio track automation and vca track automation, and the other bug where Trim on audio track misbehaves when a VCA is controlling it, I really don't see how much use this feature is. It really ends up meaning that you'll have to very carefully consider exactly where and when you do automation and if you're doing it using trim or not and if you're using VCA or directly on a track.

With this being a new marketed feature I am super-disappointed I've waited this long since release and it's still not usable for me. Incredibly disappointed.

So, when?
Old 6th October 2015 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Guillermo N's Avatar
 

Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I expect exactly the behavior you describe.

So, when can we expect the next update? I mean, we waited what, three months for the last one (first?). Surely this should be a top priority.

If you look at the two bugs that have been described, the one where we get ramps between automation points created by audio track automation and vca track automation, and the other bug where Trim on audio track misbehaves when a VCA is controlling it, I really don't see how much use this feature is. It really ends up meaning that you'll have to very carefully consider exactly where and when you do automation and if you're doing it using trim or not and if you're using VCA or directly on a track.

With this being a new marketed feature I am super-disappointed I've waited this long since release and it's still not usable for me. Incredibly disappointed.

So, when?
As always, I cannot give you an exact date, it will be released whenever it is ready after the usual maintenance cycle, 7.0.30 was just released so I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

Best regards,
GN
Old 6th October 2015
  #5
Really? So you run around marketing VCA functionality as a reason to buy your product, even switch from the leading DAW in post, and even after an update after three long months of waiting it still doesn't work as expected - and you not change the release schedule?

And we're still finding MORE BUGS with the thing!!!

Who the does your beta testing and QC anyway? I mean, it's like the people doing that don't even know how to operate the thing in the first place ('cause if they did they'd see the error)..... Soooo disappointed.
Old 7th October 2015 | Show parent
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Really? So you run around marketing VCA functionality as a reason to buy your product, even switch from the leading DAW in post, and even after an update after three long months of waiting it still doesn't work as expected - and you not change the release schedule?

And we're still finding MORE BUGS with the thing!!!

Who the does your beta testing and QC anyway? I mean, it's like the people doing that don't even know how to operate the thing in the first place ('cause if they did they'd see the error)..... Soooo disappointed.
Give the lads in Hamburg a break. Coding is hard, stuff happens, what can you do. I am sure they are working hard behind the scenes to get this fixed asap. As long as Steinberg have done the right thing and suspended the marketing for the VCA, they've done all they can do, or can reasonably be expected to do, right?

Oh!
Old 7th October 2015
  #7
Lives for gear
 
BM Grabber's Avatar
 

Have they suspended the marketing for the VCA???

In what way? The word and proud announcements have been out there for months, and..................... You can't take things back on the internet.

The QC departement certainly have to dig deeper when letting new features through.
I wholeheartedly agree with mattiasnyc. Soooo disappointed.

PS. VCA faders are proudly presented on Steinbergs homepage > Nuendo > What's new > appears both in Video and in writing. So much for the suspension
Old 7th October 2015 | Show parent
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyRoota View Post
Give the lads in Hamburg a break. Coding is hard, stuff happens, what can you do.
Of for crying out loud... It's as if the entire software customer base just decided to not demand any responsibility of manufacturers any longer.

In what other instance, what other product, are you allowed to market a feature and then sell the product with that feature not working?

Now, did I complain when it didn't work when Nuendo 7 was released? No, I did not. I merely noted it didn't work, and hailed the software for being otherwise fantastic. I kept quiet, because I assumed they were working on it. But how long is it acceptable to wait after you've paid for your product? 1 week? 2 weeks? 4 weeks? 8 weeks? 3 months? We waited three whole moths for an updated to make this work. At what point do you think it's fair to voice one's dislike with this not being fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyRoota View Post
I am sure they are working hard behind the scenes to get this fixed asap.
The programmers are working hard, I'm sure. And I'm sure they're great at what they do. But management, QC and/or beta is another thing.
Old 8th October 2015 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Nut
 
freezerman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guillermo N View Post
Hello,



As always, I cannot give you an exact date, it will be released whenever it is ready after the usual maintenance cycle, 7.0.30 was just released so I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

Best regards,
GN
You have to laugh at this one! Its honest. Guillermo doesn't pull any punches and tell's it like it is. Just as one would if one had little or nothing to do with front of house client relations!

@ mattiasnyc
He's on the customer engagement front line, dealing with genuine product concerns and frustrations and his response on this occasion is a slam dunk example of how to take a client to boiling point, fan the flames with a few poorly thought out words! Things also get lost in translation so lets not be too hard on him.

@ Guillermo
How's about something like; "We're so sorry for the frustration this issue is causing. We're working really hard to get it resolved. We'll continue to keep you updated here on Gearslutz, on the Steinberg Forum and the usual feeds but rest assured, we aim to have it fixed in the next maintenance update/release cycle. As soon as we have a date we'll let you all know. Thank you all for your patience".

I think Steinberg know this is an important feature. I use Nuendo 7 in one of my rigs, its a great DAW for post and sound design with the NEK package. The VCA feature is a great addition to its already abundant toolset. I'm looking forward to it being bug free so it can be employed in our workflow. Hopefully in the not too distant future.
Old 9th October 2015 | Show parent
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezerman View Post
@ mattiasnyc
He's on the customer engagement front line, dealing with genuine product concerns and frustrations and his response on this occasion is a slam dunk example of how to take a client to boiling point, fan the flames with a few poorly thought out words! Things also get lost in translation so lets not be too hard on him.
The words and translation weren't the issue. The issue is the message. I don't care at all about how people speak, I care about the message they are conveying.

In fact, Fredo uses the same thinking to sanitize the official forum. He edits user posts when the "language" doesn't suit Steinberg. In other words it's the message that isn't tolerated, because it makes Steinberg look bad, so he deletes it.

Btw: I added a third serious bug to the first post...

Last edited by mattiasnyc; 9th October 2015 at 02:55 AM..
Old 9th October 2015
  #11
Lives for gear
 
BM Grabber's Avatar
 

When it comes to communication, Steinberg is about the worst company I have ever encountered.

It's embarrasing how they can fly high marketing new stuff, and in "two" minutes several users find bugs and non-working things in said selling point. Yes, new features used as selling points for new versions of the program
Where the "knuf" is the beta team and QC?

How are their "Big Production House" clients coping with this nonsense?

PS. I had high hopes for the Nuendo implementation of the VCA faders (as I do NOT like how it works in C8 - linked to the regular grouping/linking feature), but have luckily hold back on the Nuendo upgrade.

I for one are happy that mattiasnyc and others are speaking out loud, and I can only support them.

And when their moderators are personally hurt when other forum members are disagreeing with them, and manage to remove posts and ban members for life (for using the word Sh!t) on background of a heated discussion they are personally involved in, I have NO respect left.

The first Communication Class 101 Steinberg should take is to teach moderators to moderate, and NOT raise their personal flag. They are NOT there to misuse their power in discussions (especially those not in favor of Steinberg).
They should further NOT get involved with an alias user account (which I know some have). This is a matter of personal conflicts, as they represent an official business company.

Regarding the VCA bugs, this just don't cut it IMO:
"I cannot give you an exact date, it will be released whenever it is ready after the usual maintenance cycle, 7.0.30 was just released so I wouldn't expect it any time soon".

Prime example of BAD communication regarding a very serious fault. Not only for the users, but in the long run for the company itself. With such kind of communication they will only loose customers, not gain any.
Thorough and honest statements are the only thing that works as a "crowd control". But...

... But they have always been a strange company communication wise
Old 9th October 2015
  #12
Lives for gear
 

i agree that the VCA launch was bad. It was.
But is it a disaster?
How did you work before N7?
How many first releases of non working features have you seen? I have seen plenty, from Avid and Steinberg alike. Should it have been caught and fixed before release? Of course. Was it even possible? We do not know...

I use Nuendo every day mixing for post and it does what I need it to do regardless of VCAs.
But yes, I to want and expect them to work at a big launch. But it doesn't stop me from working a tiny bit.
Old 9th October 2015 | Show parent
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG View Post
i agree that the VCA launch was bad. It was.
But is it a disaster?
How did you work before N7?
Erik, with all due respect, that is completely irrelevant.

The issue isn't how we worked without VCAs. Obviously we did. The point is that not only is this a feature that was advertised to work, it was even used directed at PT users to get them to crossgrade. PT users often use VCAs in post, and if anyone saw the ads and videos they'd think "Well, it's got what I need", buy the software, and then get a nasty surprise.

The point is also not that it was a "disaster", I didn't use that word and neither did anybody else. Nobody is saying it makes Nuendo unusable. It's still really the only other option for doing post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG View Post
How many first releases of non working features have you seen? I have seen plenty, from Avid and Steinberg alike. Should it have been caught and fixed before release? Of course. Was it even possible? We do not know...
What we do know is that it should have been caught before release, and what was possible was to clearly state that there were problems with it so users wouldn't get a nasty surprise. It's one thing to say "Hey, we've included VCAs but unfortunately they don't work as expected yet, so please have patience until we fix them, and we'll do that as soon as we can". It's a different one to imply that they're all working as expected.

Now, just so you get a real-world sense for this:

Suppose you're working on a mix and use these new VCAs. Your editing is done and you've done a pre-mix on all the DG, MS and FX tracks directly. Done. Next is you review your mix and do tweaks using your VCAs that you have connected. Some of these are controlling your aforementioned tracks, and some outputs. You tweak certain sections using those VCAs but decide that the best way to deal with one or two spots is using "trim" directly on tracks. The areas in question are approved and you shut down for the day.

Next day you come in to review, and you have a dialog track spiking at maximum gain, another one with a slow ramp increase from point A to point B that you never did, and all routing of VCAs-Outputs is gone.

To me that renders VCAs completely unreliable. Now that I'm aware of the issues I can avoid them, but I can't trust that there are no more errors sneaking up on me while working.

So it's not only that this is an issue where the new function didn't work on initial release, not only that it doesn't work 3 long months later in the first maintenance update, but that by not telling us about it we actually could get in real-world trouble here.

Do you not think this is a valid concern?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG View Post
I use Nuendo every day mixing for post and it does what I need it to do regardless of VCAs.
But yes, I to want and expect them to work at a big launch. But it doesn't stop me from working a tiny bit.
Nobody made the above argument. I don't know why you're debating it. (?)
Old 9th October 2015
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Did you see me quoting you Mattias?
I have Just been reading several strong negative comments. The interpretation of them was mine. The response was mine. I just get tired sometimes when folks use very confrontative language.

Have a good weekend, I will spend it reading a book, making a fire and not worrying about Vcas
Old 9th October 2015 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
In what other instance, what other product, are you allowed to market a feature and then sell the product with that feature not working?
Pro Tools 12 - no track freeze, no cloud collaboration and the list goes on.

I will give Avid props on one front, when the opened VCAs to Vanilla users and it didn't work once released they resolved that issue within weeks with a new update.

It's bad everywhere and the lack of communication from companies and their customers is getting worse as the technology advances.
Old 10th October 2015 | Show parent
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by 29CountsNY View Post
Pro Tools 12 - no track freeze, no cloud collaboration and the list goes on.

I will give Avid props on one front, when the opened VCAs to Vanilla users and it didn't work once released they resolved that issue within weeks with a new update.

It's bad everywhere and the lack of communication from companies and their customers is getting worse as the technology advances.
I meant with what other type of product, i.e. not software.... do we think it's fair to work this way. Heck, VW is in a heap of trouble because of the car not working as advertised, despite it being perfectly usable.
Old 10th October 2015 | Show parent
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG View Post
Did you see me quoting you Mattias?
I have Just been reading several strong negative comments. The interpretation of them was mine. The response was mine. I just get tired sometimes when folks use very confrontative language.

Have a good weekend, I will spend it reading a book, making a fire and not worrying about Vcas
I just tired of people misinterpreting what has been said. And you had the option of just ignoring the thread beyond the neutral information that was shared, but instead you chose to be pretty much as negative as other people, only about other people's concerns. If anything that seems like fueling the fire.

I won't worry about VCAs either. Have a nice one.
Old 7th March 2016
  #18
Still broken btw. After Steinberg say in the release notes it's fixed.

But it's only been 36 weeks since the software was released, so I'm not sure we can expect too much.
Old 7th March 2016
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Yikes. Is this same problem in Cubase?
Old 8th March 2016 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
BM Grabber's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by extralife View Post
Yikes. Is this same problem in Cubase?
Not the exact same, but equally useless.

PS. The whole VCA feature is different between the two DAW's.

Instead of having two useless VCA systems, they should really go for one common solution for both. Start all over and don't make a VCA system more complicated than it is.

PS. Some time back I made a bet that Studio One would get a working VCA feature before Cubase and Nuendo.......

I were right on both accounts
Old 8th March 2016 | Show parent
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM Grabber View Post
Instead of having two useless VCA systems, they should really go for one common solution for both. Start all over and don't make a VCA system more complicated than it is.
I was actually very surprised they decided on two different solutions. The only way that could have made sense is if there was some logic to the Cubase-specific solution that made it easy and fast to implement. But as we can see that clearly wasn't the case. So now they're stuck with twice the mess to clean up.

The Nuendo solution, in principle, has some merit. By completely disconnecting groups/links from VCAs one would think some great functionality could show up on the horizon.

Then again, I've said it for years: All they needed to do was 'rip off' Pro Tools' implementation of it all, and users would be fine with it. Just make "links" just like "groups" in PT, since they're more flexible and can be nested, and then just implement the VCAs the same way. Done.

QC / Beta testing is atrocious at Steinberg. Or perhaps management's decisions. Or both.
Old 8th March 2016
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Arichlsss's Avatar
Pretty lame steinberg!

But I'll still take the pdc of steinberg over protools
Old 8th March 2016
  #23
Lives for gear
 
BM Grabber's Avatar
 

It looks almost as PreSonus have had a listen to us, the Steinberg users request and wishes for how to implement the VCA.

Rec-arming and selection (select one = select all in group) has NOTHING to do with VCAs.
Mute and Solo + the obvious automation layering/merging....... Isn't that what VCAs are/should be? Why make it as complicated as possible?

Why should Steinberg always re-inventing the wheel? Why so stubborn?

Please start over, implement the VCAs like VCAs are. Get the basic VCAs working first.
Then maybe look at some solutions that todays DAW/computer technology can add in. But NOT at the cost of basic functionality.
Is that so hard? Unbelievable

PS. I guess a solution will be included in the next big version, and again a paid upgrade to fix an announced highlight of the current versions (both C and N).
Old 8th March 2016
  #24
And now according to Guillermo it'll be sometime in May we'll see a fix for it. Last time around it was said to have been a high priority, and that took two months. Now we'll have waited three months before the next fix. Seems like less of a priority to me. And it'll essentially make it about a year of broken promises.

Speaking of "re-inventing the wheel"; I think it's time Steinberg got some different people behind the wheel.
Old 9th March 2016 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Still broken btw. After Steinberg say in the release notes it's fixed.

But it's only been 36 weeks since the software was released, so I'm not sure we can expect too much.
Resources are limited ya know... Plus you got new and improved LoopMash2 and more recently, other really cool mind-boggling amazing features.

Just blame it on the different so-called Steinberg "cost centers." I guess they all operate independently.
Old 30th June 2016
  #26
Version 7.1 just got released and VCA still doesn't work as it should.

370 days of it not working.

I wish I was joking.
Old 30th June 2016 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
QC / Beta testing is atrocious at Steinberg. Or perhaps management's decisions. Or both.
It's not the beta testing. Honest.
Old 30th June 2016 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Version 7.1 just got released and VCA still doesn't work as it should.

370 days of it not working.

I wish I was joking.
you've got weird problems, man...

I work with VCAยดs in Nuendo every day - without any issue here (!)




BTW:

Nuendo 7.1 is out...
Detailview*:**|*http://www.steinberg.net/

+ very interesting new VST Multi Panner plugin (4 free!)
stable so far. luv the new panner.


.
Old 30th June 2016 | Show parent
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshifter View Post
you've got weird problems, man...

I work with VCAยดs in Nuendo every day - without any issue here (!)




BTW:

Nuendo 7.1 is out...
Yes, and it has at least one of the same problems as before.

Have you tried to reproduce the following bug?

If you can't reproduce it let us all know.
Old 1st July 2016
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

I will check weekend
๐Ÿ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 4594 views: 587281
Avatar for Arseny
Arseny 3 weeks ago
replies: 97 views: 28022
Avatar for mowmow
mowmow 15th September 2010
replies: 295 views: 60975
Avatar for anguswoodhead
anguswoodhead 26th March 2013
replies: 1296 views: 158166
Avatar for heraldo_jones
heraldo_jones 1st February 2016
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
๐Ÿ–จ๏ธ Show Printable Version
โœ‰๏ธ Email this Page
๐Ÿ” Search thread
๐ŸŽ™๏ธ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump