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Is there anything Bach did not do??? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 21st March 2014
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
The verb on the snare would definitely need to be set to the "church" setting.
Yah !! heh
Old 21st March 2014
  #92
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Intricate rhythms and grooves such as this would have been entirely foreign (and likely incomprehensible) to Bach or his contemporaries. The spontaneity of the articulation is tremendous.

west african drums - senegal - YouTube


This one would be much more agreeable and easily digested.
Afgin - Tribal Rhythm - YouTube


Outside of rhythms, it would have been very hard to baffle him though. Melodically, likely no chance. But in the area of ungrounded chord sequences (ones not anchored in tonality) and related melodic variations, one could have possibly wowed him. He was accustomed to cycling in fifths, so things like : / Ebmaj7 - Dm7 - / Bbmaj7 - Amin7 - / Abmaj7 - Gm7 - / Bbm7 - Dbm7 - / Dm7 - - - / Ebmaj7 - Fmaj7 - / Gmaj7 - - - / Gmaj7 (fini) / : would have likely induced a certain wow factor and befuddlement.
Old 21st March 2014
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Well it looks like this thread is coming to an end. In a last efforts to learn something, I had a few thoughts on the subject and things in the thread.

There were a couple people who mentioned things that while it is true, Bach may not have done

A song only in power chords

Four minor seventh chords in a row

I hate to sound like I dismissed their ideas, however we are talking about arguably the greatest genius ever in music. I assure you, he would not in any way be confused or astounded by these things. He would likely tell you (insert demeaning comment here) and might even sword fight you!!!

There is a famous story where Bach compared the playing of a certain bassoonist to the bleating of a nanny goat... long story short, sword fight.... nobody died.

Perhaps I should have titled the thread, is there anything Bach could not do (or would not understand upon first listen). There were some good suggestions.

Complex rhythmic settings

Bending notes

Very advanced harmony (likely post Wagner), though we never really did find a harmony he did not do at least once. Perhaps some jazz harmony concepts, tritone subs etc. Though, I would not be surprised of you found a tritone sub somewhere in the AOF.

Anything else??????

If this is the end of the line for this post. I think it speaks for itself that we needed to come to almost the 20th century before we found things that you could argue Bach would not understand.

p.s. Could you imagine if Bach listened to Coltrane and bird for a couple hours... all of our jobs would be a lot harder.
I've said it before but it bears repeating: timbre and repetition!

ie:

- timbre: the possibility of altering the timbre of sounds electronically and even more of actually recording would have been completely new to him (obviously). I'd like to think he would have embraced it as another colour in his palette.

- repetition: just because he used all sorts of chords it does not follow that he would have made music that included just one chord as a drone. The minimalism of La Monte Young, Eliane Radigue and other music that is deliberately simple would have surprised him.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #94
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Hey vintagelove, did the last 2 posts not satisfy you a little more ? I thought they covered plenty of ground.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
Hey vintagelove, did the last 2 posts not satisfy you a little more ? I thought they covered plenty of ground.
Hi, agreed. Highly complex rhythms would definitely be one of the things he had not done. In fact most of the African influence on music would have been foreign or even frowned upon (sliding notes). I had posted that already earlier in the thread, sorry if I missed your post.

Interesting though, imagine the multi layered rhythms from African music mixed with the multiple voice fugue settings used. The church was already complaining that it was too hard to understand the texts in his settings.... that would have really got their panties in a bunch!!!
Old 23rd March 2014
  #96
"This is just mindbogglingly silly"

+1

Last edited by Bullseye; 23rd March 2014 at 12:18 AM.. Reason: needed quotes
Old 23rd March 2014
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Hi, agreed. Highly complex rhythms would definitely be one of the things he had not done. In fact most of the African influence on music would have been foreign or even frowned upon (sliding notes). I had posted that already earlier in the thread, sorry if I missed your post.

Interesting though, imagine the multi layered rhythms from African music mixed with the multiple voice fugue settings used. The church was already complaining that it was too hard to understand the texts in his settings.... that would have really got their panties in a bunch!!!
No need to apologize, I've actually been over-emphasizing the "intricate rhythm" theme.

But what about the specific chord sequence I layed out, and what about Santiago's interesting points on repetition, minimalism, timbre and textures ?
Old 23rd March 2014
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
"This is just mindbogglingly silly"

+1
That's exactly what I said about the Ferris wheel, until I finally participatorily got on it.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
No need to apologize, I've actually been over-emphasizing the "intricate rhythm" theme.

But what about the specific chord sequence I layed out, and what about Santiago's interesting points on repetition, minimalism, timbre and textures ?

The chord progression you posted is interesting. I could see something similar being used, however, it would most likely be done in a passacaglia (ground bass), where the bass line would descend and that would tie the chords together to "make sense" of them. So in that progression you posted the baseline would look something like (think organ foot pedal descending while the polyphony above would create the chords)

Ebmaj7 - Dm7 - / Bbmaj7 - Amin7 - / Abmaj7 - Gm7 - / Bbm7 - Dbm7 - / Dm7 - - - / Ebmaj7 - Fmaj7 - / Gmaj7 - - - / Gmaj7

eb,d,d,c,c,,bb,bb,a,a,a,a,g

These types of progressions are though of as non-funtional harmony. Now I doubt he used the exact progression you posted, but similar things were done. This might not be the best example, but it at least demonstrates the style, and some pretty funky harmony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie52xH8V2L4

While looking at that piece I found one I totally forgot about. His "endlessly rising cannon" from the musical offering. If your not familiar with the story, check it out. Long story short, Bach's son CPE worked for a king who was also a musician. Bach was known to be able to improvise a fugue (which is crazy) on a theme if you gave him one. Well the king came up with a long complex chromatic melody, which he hoped to stump Bach with... Sure enough Bach improvised impressively upon the theme. The king then asked for a 6 voice fugue, to which Bach wrote the musical offering (a collection of pieces).

One of these took a variation of the theme, written as a cannon, which modulated endlessly upward a key at a time, again based on the kings theme. Genius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsgdZFIdmeo



I really don't think things like minimalism would even grab his attention to be honest. He would probably be wondering what happened to the music.

As for tone and texture in modern electronic music, sure, but I am sure he would be way more freaked out by, you know..... the electricity powering the light bulbs in the room.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
"This is just mindbogglingly silly"

+1

What is so silly about the question?


If you have to look to almost modern times to find things he did not do, I think that alone gives some validity to the question. It seems several other people though it was a good enough question to at least offer and discuss a substantial answer.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #101
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What if the melody moved up (/) and down (\) like this, in 8th notes, mainly in intervallic 4ths ? Would he have found that, combined with the chord sequence, to be at all interesting, foreign, unique or refreshing ? I tried my best to position the melodic phrase in time with the harmonic changes (4 8th notes per chord).

g/c\Bb\f\e/a\g\d\c/f\e\Bb\a/d\c\g
Ebmaj7...Dm7......Bbmaj7...Amin7

It would then continue on transposed to the 3rd degree of the Abmaj7 chord (c).
Old 23rd March 2014
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
What if the melody moved up (/) and down (\) like this, in 8th notes, mainly in intervallic 4ths ? Would he have found that, combined with the chord sequence, to be at all interesting, foreign, unique or refreshing ? I tried my best to position the melodic phrase in time with the harmonic changes (4 8th notes per chord).

g/c\Bb\f\e/a\g\d\c/f\e\Bb\a/d\c\g
Ebmaj7...Dm7......Bbmaj7...Amin7

It would then continue on transposed to the 3rd degree of the Abmaj7 chord (c).


Don't get me wrong, I think he would have thought anything you (or anyone else) suggested was cool (as long as it was of musical substance). He was a learner throughout his lifetime. Check out his French, English suites, etc. He always learned new styles and went to great lengths to learn them. He started learning by sneaking into his brothers music and copying it by hand.

The famous story of him traveling a couple hundred miles to see one of his biggest influences Buxtehude. He was suppose to stay like 3 weeks. Well, in typical musician fashion he came back 3 months late.....
Old 23rd March 2014
  #103
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Do you have any insight as to when improvisational tendencies started to be discouraged ? Was it at the tail end of the Baroque era ? Was it possibly because certain pedagogically strict educational authority figures at the time "lacked the knack" so to speak, and through envy, tried to abolish it ?
Old 23rd March 2014
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
Do you have any insight as to when improvisational tendencies started to be discouraged ?


I think improvisation never really died. All of the great composers could improvise. I think it was a matter of practicality that they had to write things down because that was the only way to record them.

You do bring up a good point, in the baroque it was assumed (at least if you were a keyboard player) you could improvise given the figured bass.

As for improvisation being discouraged. I think that has to do with butthurt professors who weren't that good of musician hearing 18 year old kids in the practice room improvising things they couldn't play if they practiced it for a month.

I recall being kicked out of the practice room next to a professors office. He was fine when I was playing some classical music on the piano. As soon as I started playing some blues/stride piano.... his jimmies were rustled!!!
Old 26th March 2014
  #105
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Did he do trancegate?
Old 26th March 2014
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internet View Post
Did he do trancegate?
Yeah, did Bach ever do brostep yoy bass? Didn't think so!
Old 26th March 2014
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internet View Post
Did he do trancegate?


Hi, while I get and appreciate your humor. If you did a little research on Bach (who is perhaps the greatest genius to ever be involved in music), you would better appreciate the question.

The truth is, the only thing in "trance gate" (which I will be honest I have never even heard of) that would impress him would be the electrical socket your drum machine was plugged into.



So please folks, let's not clog up the thread with comments like these. I was looking for more educated musicians to answer the question. Things like, did Beethoven use harmonic concepts Bach didn't. Would "Giant Steps" be too foreign to his ear?

More Bebop Scale, less Brostep.... Thanks
Old 27th March 2014
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Hi, while I get and appreciate your humor. If you did a little research on Bach (who is perhaps the greatest genius to ever be involved in music), you would better appreciate the question.

The truth is, the only thing in "trance gate" (which I will be honest I have never even heard of) that would impress him would be the electrical socket your drum machine was plugged into.



So please folks, let's not clog up the thread with comments like these. I was looking for more educated musicians to answer the question. Things like, did Beethoven use harmonic concepts Bach didn't. Would "Giant Steps" be too foreign to his ear?

More Bebop Scale, less Brostep.... Thanks
Basically its just a fast gate and it ought to be able to get this effect on an organ, maybe with an assistant or some mechanical device closing the pipes.
Old 27th March 2014
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post

The truth is, the only thing in "trance gate" (which I will be honest I have never even heard of) that would impress him would be the electrical socket your drum machine was plugged into.

I imagine Bach in this day and age would be EXTREMELY interested in the immense amount of sonic options available to him beyond the limited set of orchestral instruments, and very likely would have gone through a phase of almost strictly sonic exploration outside melody and harmony.

Which, to bring it back to the thread title, is something he did not do.
Old 27th March 2014
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I imagine Bach in this day and age would be EXTREMELY interested in the immense amount of sonic options available to him beyond the limited set of orchestral instruments, and very likely would have gone through a phase of almost strictly sonic exploration outside melody and harmony.

Which, to bring it back to the thread title, is something he did not do.

I don't mean to be a jerk but did you even read the OP? Here is exactly what I wrote

Here is what I mean, is there any musical technique Bach did not use

Chord

Chord Progression

Writing styles (obviously he did not do 12 tone etc, but is there a harmony created in 12 do he did not use?)

Other harmonic devices

Scales (you may find a couple thing here, maybe not... hence this thread)



Please do a little research on Bach. The things he did were so involved and in depth that I can't imagine him sitting around playing on a drum machine/synth for hours.

Since your bringing in the possibility of modern technology. Tell me which of the following scenarios you find more plausible.

1) Bach sits down for two months playing with the values on the filters of a synth.

2) Bach sits down and records his organ playing on a midi organ so he does not have to write it out by hand.

Imagine the man was able to just play in real time and have the notes written down for him. Before you answer, think about this, he was able to IMPROVISE on the spot a fugue based on any theme you could give him.

He could have sat down and recorded the WTC in less than an hour.

How many years of annual cycles of cantatas would he have been able to produce?

His known works (many were lost) make up a 155 cd box set

Amazon.com: Bach Edition: Complete Works (155 CD Box Set): Music

Something like 200 hours of music, all written out by hand. Imagine how much he would have accomplished if he could have just played a midi instrument that recorded the notes for him.

I think he would be more preoccupied with that given the possibilities.
Old 27th March 2014
  #111
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Yes I read what you wrote. If you want to keep it to just music theory and no sonic theory then that's fine, its your thread.

I, for one, can't believe for second that someone interested in pushing music forward as Bach did would use modern technology to simply make notation easier. That comes across as incredibly closed minded and self-limiting, traits that I don't attribute to Bach in his musical quests.

But this is all indeed speculative. . . by keeping it to just music theory as you're wanting then yes answering your question becomes much more straightforward and objective.
Old 27th March 2014
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Yes I read what you wrote. If you want to keep it to just music theory and no sonic theory then that's fine, its your thread.

I, for one, can't believe for second that someone interested in pushing music forward as Bach did would use modern technology to simply make notation easier. That comes across as incredibly closed minded and self-limiting, traits that I don't attribute to Bach in his musical quests.

But this is all indeed speculative. . . by keeping it to just music theory as you're wanting then yes answering your question becomes much more straightforward and objective.


Ok, but there has to be a matter of priorities. What would be more important to Bach? Now are we fast forwarding with a time machine so that all of history still happens? If that is the scenario I am sure he would be much too busy studying Stravinsky (and Beethoven, Wagner etc), and Jazz harmony. I just can't imagine him having the time to spend playing 4 chord electronic music. If he did I really believe in a week (with a little help from someone who knows how to work a computer) he would come up with a piece of electronic music unreachable by any electronic artist ever.


Is there something in particular you think would interest him? That would help focus the conversation.
Old 27th March 2014
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Ok, but there has to be a matter of priorities. What would be more important to Bach? Now are we fast forwarding with a time machine so that all of history still happens? If that is the scenario I am sure he would be much too busy studying Stravinsky (and Beethoven, Wagner etc), and Jazz harmony. I just can't imagine him having the time to spend playing 4 chord electronic music. If he did I really believe in a week (with a little help from someone who knows how to work a computer) he would come up with a piece of electronic music unreachable by any electronic artist ever.


Is there something in particular you think would interest him? That would help focus the conversation.
Its so dependent and speculative, its hard to go down this road.

If I'm looking to a current older example of a sonic-theory guy who's pushed the envelope, I could see Bach going to some degree towards Morton Subotnick. Maybe not so all-in as Subotnick, but I can't see an enquiring and creative musical mind tuning out the technology of sonics in this day and age in order to solely study old classical or jazz.

Morton Subotnick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Where previous electronic music had used non-traditional structures, Subotnick's electronic compositions are structured more like the classical music for acoustic instruments with which audiences are familiar, but with nontraditional timbres and pitch manipulations no orchestra could produce.

In addition to music in the electronic medium, Subotnick has written for symphony orchestra, chamber ensembles, theater and multimedia productions. His "staged tone poem” The Double Life of Amphibians, a collaboration with director Lee Breuer and visual artist Irving Petlin, utilizing live interaction between singers, instrumentalists and computer, was premiered at the 1984 Olympics Arts Festival in Los Angeles."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKc3itXRxNY

If Bach were 19 years old in 2014 though, I honestly can imagine him being in the EDM game, top of the Beatport charts. That's where the biggest most epic music is being made right now. He definitely focused quite a bit on the social-scene-based popular music of his time.
Old 27th March 2014
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Its so dependent and speculative, its hard to go down this road.

If I'm looking to a current older example of a sonic-theory guy who's pushed the envelope, I could see Bach going to some degree towards Morton Subotnick. Maybe not so all-in as Subotnick, but I can't see an enquiring and creative musical mind tuning out the technology of sonics in this day and age in order to solely study old classical or jazz.

Morton Subotnick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Where previous electronic music had used non-traditional structures, Subotnick's electronic compositions are structured more like the classical music for acoustic instruments with which audiences are familiar, but with nontraditional timbres and pitch manipulations no orchestra could produce.

In addition to music in the electronic medium, Subotnick has written for symphony orchestra, chamber ensembles, theater and multimedia productions. His "staged tone poem” The Double Life of Amphibians, a collaboration with director Lee Breuer and visual artist Irving Petlin, utilizing live interaction between singers, instrumentalists and computer, was premiered at the 1984 Olympics Arts Festival in Los Angeles."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKc3itXRxNY

If Bach were 19 years old in 2014 though, I honestly can imagine him being in the EDM game, top of the Beatport charts. That's where the biggest most epic music is being made right now. He definitely focused quite a bit on the social-scene-based popular music of his time.

Ok now were talking!!! I am listening to some of his stuff now. Is there anything you would consider his best work? From what I am hearing it sounds like electronic Stravinsky but less intricate and interesting. I am more than willing to listen to anything you suggest.

Couple things

Old classical and Jazz would be very new and fresh to him. Remember he went to great lengths to study the musical styles of the day.

Most epic is quite subjective (which your by all means entitled to), but remember, for many people edm does nothing for them emotionally or intellectually. I find it incredibly boring. As some do Bach....

While he did use aspects of music popular among the social scene, keep in mind one very telling thing. Bach never wrote an opera. He was quite aware of them, and it was the hip thing to do to be famous at the time. However he stated

The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul

he was hardly concerned with fame or fortune. I imagine if he was 14 today, he would be like the hundreds of thousands of children who study classical music in conservatories worldwide...... or too busy playing video games to give a crap.... who knows???
Old 27th March 2014
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Ok now were talking!!! I am listening to some of his stuff now. Is there anything you would consider his best work? From what I am hearing it sounds like electronic Stravinsky but less intricate and interesting. I am more than willing to listen to anything you suggest.
I'm honestly not a huge fan of his works, and definitely feel there are superior musicians out there. But he's left a legacy, and his approach, his mentality, is one of an enquiring and creative yet classical mind, who's interested in new things, so I felt that he was a much better example of my point than "four chord electronic songs." There's been a significant "high art" electronic music approach going back nearly 100 years. (Oberlin has a great program that covers it: http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Couple things

Old classical and Jazz would be very new and fresh to him. Remember he went to great lengths to study the musical styles of the day.

Most epic is quite subjective (which your by all means entitled to), but remember, for many people edm does nothing for them emotionally or intellectually. I find it incredibly boring. As some do Bach....
I was operating on the assumption that Bach was born into this time, not time machined into it. Those scenarios would definitely lead to two very different outcomes. Its definitely interesting to wonder, especially considering "a prophet is not recognized in his own land." There could very well be a Bach equivalent out there right now! But, to my point, I don't believe a current Bach equivalent would be focused on composing traditional classical music.

This is all an aside though, I get why you wanted to stick to classical theory, we can ponder for days and never get anywhere
Old 27th March 2014
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Yes I read what you wrote. If you want to keep it to just music theory and no sonic theory then that's fine, its your thread.

I, for one, can't believe for second that someone interested in puse hing music forward as Bach did would use modern technology to simply make notation easier. That comes across as incredibly closed minded and self-limiting, traits that I don't attribute to Bach in his musical quests.

But this is all indeed speculative. . . by keeping it to just music theory as you're wanting then yes answering your question becomes much more straightforward and objective.
You're right, Vintagelover dismisses sonic theory (and also music based on repetition). I don't see how an analog filter is less interesting (or easier to master) than a complex harmony.

But yes, he has at least re-focused the thread as "What modern harmonic and melodic developments would have surprised Bach the most and which ones would he be most interested in pursuing?", which is an interesting question on its own (and the responses have been interesting).
Old 27th March 2014
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santiago View Post
You're right, Vintagelover dismisses sonic theory (and also music based on repetition). I don't see how an analog filter is less interesting (or easier to master) than a complex harmony.

But yes, he has at least re-focused the thread as "What modern harmonic and melodic developments would have surprised Bach the most and which ones would he be most interested in pursuing?", which is an interesting question on its own (and the responses have been interesting).

Please keep in mind, this was the original question

is there any musical technique Bach did not use

Chord

Chord Progression

Writing styles (obviously he did not do 12 tone etc, but is there a harmony created in 12 do he did not use?)

Other harmonic devices

Scales (you may find a couple thing here, maybe not... hence this thread)



.... it was others that derailed the threads direction. This thread is the first time I have ever even heard of "sonic theory". Not to demean it in anyway, but I would say it is much easier to master a filter than master the harmonic structure of the Art of Fugue.


As for music based on repetition, I don't think anyone has mentioned anything specific in this repetitious music that would have been new to Bach. It is not like he never repeated himself. He re-wrote several of the same themes throughout his career. To dig further, if you actually study Bach's music, in the last section of almost every piece of his I played, he tends to restate much of what happened in the development of the piece.

For instance, I was recently teaching a student the Sarabande from bwv995. Anyway I was explaining to him how Bach tends to restate ideas, on a hunch I said I bet he restates all the chromatic approaches used in the hole piece in the last four measures.... Sure enough, there they were.

So... repetition is not new to Bach. I just don't buy that he would repeat the same measure of music over and over again.

Don't mistake that for me dismissing repetitious music, hell, I grew up listening and playing to rock and roll which is basically the same 25 chord progressions used over and over. There are also interesting things in Indian music to do with repetition. I just don't think the (arguably) greatest genius in music history would be fascinated by it.
Old 27th March 2014
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
If Bach were 19 years old in 2014 though, I honestly can imagine him being in the EDM game, top of the Beatport charts. That's where the biggest most epic music is being made right now. He definitely focused quite a bit on the social-scene-based popular music of his time.
"That's where the biggest most epic music is being made right now."

Such a profound statement that it deserves a Double Quote award !!


"...I honestly can imagine him being in the EDM game right now."

Another winner folks, we have another winner !!




Herr Weiss
Old 27th March 2014
  #119
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Different strokes for different folks i guess......
Old 27th March 2014
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Please keep in mind, this was the original question

is there any musical technique Bach did not use

Chord

Chord Progression

Writing styles (obviously he did not do 12 tone etc, but is there a harmony created in 12 do he did not use?)

Other harmonic devices

Scales (you may find a couple thing here, maybe not... hence this thread)


Can you point to an instance where he did the suspense film two augmented chords separated by a minor 3rd thingie:

B-D#-G-A#-D-F#

?
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