The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Is there anything Bach did not do??? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 12th March 2014
  #31
Lives for gear
 
Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
The piece I was referring to is a guitar transcription.... and we only gotz 4 fingers so.... something has to give. I will look for the full monty. Good post!!!
You can't play six-note chords on a guitar?
Old 12th March 2014
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Just fyi, using all twelve pitches within the span of 2-3 measures doesn't count as serialism though. It's not a tone-row as pitches are repeated before the completion of what would be the row, and it's not atonal, it rather functions in a traditional tonal way, with traditional chord-to-chord relationships, traditional voice-leading, resolutions, etc.

It is possible to write a serial piece, to write a tone row that is not "strictly atonal" and that suggests "free tonality", and folks like Webern played around with that a bit, although that tended to be a no-no among the serialists and Schoenberg made it categorically prohibited at one point.
Old 12th March 2014
  #33
ark
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
Just fyi, using all twelve pitches within the span of 2-3 measures doesn't count as serialism though.
No, of course not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
It is possible to write a serial piece, to write a tone row that is not "strictly atonal" and that suggests "free tonality", and folks like Webern played around with that a bit, although that tended to be a no-no among the serialists and Schoenberg made it categorically prohibited at one point.
Berg's violin concerto is a good example, I think. Webern, not so much.
Old 12th March 2014
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ark View Post
No, of course not.

Berg's violin concerto is a good example, I think. Webern, not so much.
Yeah, Berg, too, but Webern experimented with it as well. It wasn't an exhaustive list, just an example.
Old 12th March 2014
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
Why is it so friggin hard to get you to answer a question plainly and straightforwardly. Is English not your first language? (If it isn't, I apologize, but it sure seems like it would be aside from the fact that it's like pulling teeth to try to get you to directly answer questions.)

When someone asks, "Okay, but I didn't say 'parallel fifths used in a piece' did I?" You'd answer either "No" implying that I didn't say that, or "Yes", suggesting that you disagree and believe that I did say that.

Likewise with "I said a chord progression that consisted solely of power chords, right?" To which the logical answers are either "Right" or "Yes" or "Wrong" or "That's not what I understood" or "No" or something like that.
I find this pretty offensive to vintagelove... If you really expect people to give only Yes or No answers and not express their thoughts based on the flow of the conversation, I think you'd be better off arguing with an A.I. program. That way, if you don't like their answers, you can reprogram them.

Vintagelove answered your initial question anyway. Bach did not write power chord based pieces. Your point has been made.
Old 12th March 2014
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Herr Weiss's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Here is a cool analyses of the dm lute prelude, a couple of standout harmonies

Bach's Changes

f#dim7/E

dmin/Bb

bmin7b5/E

b9, 13's, clusters oh my!!!


Not fair, you are googling!!

Cheating!!!!!

HW
Old 12th March 2014
  #37
Lives for gear
 
Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss View Post
Not fair, you are googling!!

Cheating!!!!!

HW
That's one reason I asked about Ma9(b13) chords, because they're not so off-the-wall that folks balk at the mere idea of them (like they would with theoretical time signatures like "5/11"), but they're unusual enough that it's unlikely one could simply Google for that chord in Bach's music.
Old 12th March 2014
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Herr Weiss's Avatar
 

I was kidding with vintagelove. I believe in google. I just typed [Did Bach use Jazz chords?] and got good answers.
One is right here in this link.

http://www.johnmreese.net/bach_concepts.htm

Great read!!!

[EDIT] Link is now correct!!

HW

Last edited by Herr Weiss; 12th March 2014 at 10:24 PM.. Reason: Corrections
Old 12th March 2014
  #39
Lives for gear
 

Here is something that has parts which sound in places like it could be much more modern :42-52


Bach - Recitative und Arie, Cantata 91 - YouTube
Old 12th March 2014
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fidelity castro View Post
I find this pretty offensive to vintagelove... If you really expect people to give only Yes or No answers and not express their thoughts based on the flow of the conversation, I think you'd be better off arguing with an A.I. program. That way, if you don't like their answers, you can reprogram them.

Vintagelove answered your initial question anyway. Bach did not write power chord based pieces. Your point has been made.
I don't take it personally, some people just can't have a discussion without getting their jimmies rustled


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-chEyM6hkaW...em-rustled.jpg
Old 12th March 2014
  #41
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
You can't play six-note chords on a guitar?
In stacked 3rds.... no, maybe one or two if I really thought about it, but it would require octave displacement at very least.

Still looking for that chord, but my new guitar just arrived. Thanks for helping pass the time!!!!
Old 12th March 2014
  #42
Deleted User
Guest
And then there was Virgil Fox. Arguably one of the more exciting Bach ambassadors of the 20th Century. RIP Virg.
Old 12th March 2014
  #43
Lives for gear
 
Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

I just saw fidelity's response through vintage's post, and you know what I find offensive? When one asks simple, direct questions and doesn't receive a simple, direct response to them, especially when it happens repeatedly, as it did in this case, so that channel's getting tuned out too.
Old 13th March 2014
  #44
Lives for gear
 

I think this is appropriate considering the amount of twattery that's been going on from certain individuals on this board. Skip to 52 seconds and enjoy...

Old 13th March 2014
  #45
Lives for gear
 
pinkheadedbug's Avatar
 

I'm struggling to find the antecedents of Captain Beefheart in the work of Bach. Help me out.
Old 13th March 2014
  #46
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
Did he use a Ma9(b13) anywhere?

Well I made a bit of progress.....

I found (low to high) c b d ab

So only thing missing is the third (which does appear in the same measure, next chord), but the rest is there... I only had a chance to thumb through a couple pieces. Will that suffice?
Old 13th March 2014
  #47
Lives for gear
 

Good news, new guitar arrives and it is awesome!!! ..... Car won't start.... oh life
Old 13th March 2014
  #48
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Well I made a bit of progress.....

I found (low to high) c b d ab

So only thing missing is the third (which does appear in the same measure, next chord), but the rest is there... I only had a chance to thumb through a couple pieces. Will that suffice?
That's a good find, but he will never see it since he put you on ignore. He regularly ignores anyone who mildly disagrees with him or won't jump through his pedantic hoops.
Old 13th March 2014
  #49
Lives for gear
 

Oh well....

Any other suggestions?
Old 13th March 2014
  #50
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Oh well....

Any other suggestions?
You skipped mine from the first page.
Old 13th March 2014
  #51
Lives for gear
 

Ok missed it the first time around.

Altered chords - lots of them. I found a thesis by a gentleman named Ward, he analyzed the 371 bach chorales and four the 1.5% of the dominant chords in the chorals were altered.

Scales - This is where you will find some stuff he did not do, but then again, you may find some things that really surprises you (see the 12 tone melodies someone else posted). I think you will find that the odd "scales" he will use are more of a result of chromatics being used on scales/modes, rather than using an exotic scale for the whole piece.

He most certainly used the modes heavily, however things like "exotic scales" will be rarely used, if at all.

... Let me just say, I do not claim to be the, "be all end all" expert on Bach. That is why I started this thread. I know we have many knowledgeable people on this forum (and since this and an mma forum are the only ones I belong to....) and I want their input on the subject.

Also, just because I can't find an answer to a question in an hour to two, does not mean something was never done. He had about 50 solid years of material to go through, hence me starting the thread asking for input on the subject. Thanks to all the participants!!!
Old 13th March 2014
  #52
Lives for gear
 
Herr Weiss's Avatar
 

Hope you took the time to read the link I posted.

Peace,

HW
Old 13th March 2014
  #53
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss View Post
Hope you took the time to read the link I posted.

Peace,

HW

I did, good read. Most of it is pretty well know if you have studied bach.

It point out one of the incredible things about bach's music.


You can put on a piece of his music, listen and say... that is beautiful..

Then you find out if you turn the page upside down, it is the exact same thing????

Remember he did not take weeks on end to figure these things out, scratch out notes, rewrite them over and over (in finale) until it's correct.

He though, "I am going to write a piece that is the same frontwards as backwards"

Then sat down and [email protected] wrote it (like a boss), and moved on to the next piece.

Crazy....
Old 13th March 2014
  #54
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss View Post
Great stuff !
Old 13th March 2014
  #55
Lives for gear
 
Herr Weiss's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
Great stuff !


John Reese, Composer

John Reese, Composer and Ardent Formulist


Yeah, great stuff indeed!!


HW
Old 13th March 2014
  #56
Lives for gear
 

Interesting to sum up todays exercise. It seems we had to venture very far into the future to get to the point where it was "possible" there was something Bach did not do.

How about this, lets find some stuff that is not between Wagner and the 2nd Viennese school (so pretty much the end of tonal music) that he did not do.

Debussy perhaps, someone mentioned Bartok (who I don't know enough about to REALLY comment).

Do we really have to go all the way to the end of tonality to find something new?


Round two..... Go
Old 13th March 2014
  #57
Gear Maniac
 
Vatraxos's Avatar
 

I remember being at a party once and this guy was complaining that Bach ruined music because after him microtonal music basically vanished from the western tradition. Now I have no idea if such a statement has any truth to it and even if it does if such a thing could constitute ruining music but it might be something interesting to look into if anyone is curious enough...I wasn't.
Old 13th March 2014
  #58
Lives for gear
 
pinkheadedbug's Avatar
 

I was going to say something about microtonal music, which also relates to blues, because blues isn't just about blue notes, it's fundamentally about microtonality ... weird bends and shakes drawn from the African traditions.
Old 13th March 2014
  #59
Lives for gear
 
pinkheadedbug's Avatar
 

Another thing it strikes me he (?probably, not a Bach expert) didn't do is form a chordal melody in the way that house music does by taking (say) a minor seventh chord patch and just moving it around by playing it on a keyboard.
Old 13th March 2014
  #60
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug View Post
Another thing it strikes me he (?probably, not a Bach expert) didn't do is form a chordal melody in the way that house music does by taking (say) a minor seventh chord patch and just moving it around by playing it on a keyboard.

Not being a jerk, I have no idea what you mean. I assure you he moved minor 7th chords around the keyboard. Fun fact, he practically invented/popularized (like evh with tapping, not the first, but most recognized) using the thumb and pinky while playing the keyboard.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump