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Avicii's 'Wake Me Up' hits 200 million streams in Spotify. Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 6th March 2014
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
You're not articulate enough ? Hah !

It's great when the muse is working, no need to tamper or tweak. If it ain't broke then don't fix it, for muse-malfunction is bleak.
I knew that YOU would understand.

And don't worry eldon2975, I got your back my friend!!


HW
Old 6th March 2014
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSA7 View Post
I like pop including some of the current Hot 100 songs, but is the songwriting "good" because they are in the Hot 100? I'm just not comfortable with the Hot 100 being the final arbiter of "good" any more than I'm comfortable with Wake Me Up's Spotify numbers being an indicator of "good."
It's quite a harrowing thought : vast numbers of young aspiring musicians emulating Lady Gaga's "Applause" formula so that they can be winners too (and get that much needed standing ovation).
Old 6th March 2014
  #333
The trick is not to write what's in the top 100, the trick is to think about what's next.
Old 6th March 2014
  #334
Gear Maniac
 
IHateMyUsername's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSA7 View Post
I like pop including some of the current Hot 100 songs, but is the songwriting "good" because they are in the Hot 100? I'm just not comfortable with the Hot 100 being the final arbiter of "good" any more than I'm comfortable with Wake Me Up's Spotify numbers being an indicator of "good."
It's a successful pop song by the definition of that list, which is meant to reflect what most people listen to, and in pop music, the amount of listeners is probably the factor of sole importance in determining the success of a pop song. If you don't think that's a good indicator of musical quality, fine. "Successful pop song", does not necessarily mean the same as "good music". But that doesn't take Top 100 away from being a good place to start if you want to study pop music.
Old 6th March 2014
  #335
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Thanks for this link – a good read!
Old 6th March 2014
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
The trick is not to write what's in the top 100, the trick is to think about what's next.
Tricks and gimmicks, chasing a slowly moving target. That's the easy part. "What's next" is likely very much the same as what has been recently established and documented. There is no paradigm shift.

Mimic the "Applause" tune via mechanical construction.

1) Find the current average (mathematically calculated) top 40 tempo.

2) Realize that a pounding quarter note kick pulse is the basis of the "groove". It should come in and out at 1 or 2 locations in the song, sometimes very enhanced with sub-bass when it returns.

3) Pick a minor chord. Stick to it. Only use the bVII and bVI chords as colorful variations alongside the i chord.

4) Build the melody via minor pentatonic scale single note repeats and riffing. Emphasize the root note a lot.(Eg.r=root:r r r r b3 b3 5 5 r b3 r r r b3 r r - use the b7th and 4th scale degrees only as colorful variants). The rhythmic phrasing should be quarter and eighth notes, ta - ta - ti-ti - ta. Try sixteenth notes only at your own risk.

5) The chorus does not have to change chords, but definitely change the melodic sequence a little.

5a) Bridges are basically obsolete and viewed as unnecessary

6) A little less autotune on the vocal track than was prevalent 3 years ago, a nice moderate amount.

7) Make the lyrical content only about frivolous (non-romantic) relationships and/or partying it up with the crowd.

8) Put a softsynth instrumental break in there (with the variant chords) at or around the halfway point, maybe once more near the end, maybe even at the beginning. It should just be a chord texture, or with a very simple lead riff on top.

9) The bassline should be very simple.

10) The mix should have many many tracks, and doubled tracks, making it congested. Don't forget to quantize to the extreme.

11) Have the mastering process bloat the sheet of rice paper to the extreme with a mega-dose of LOUD AND CLEAR steroid tools. Is it loud enough ? Never !


That's the easy part.

The next step is to get it past the scouts, the alligators in the moat, past the soldiers at the main castle door, in to meet the king (or sub-king) executive, and sign the not so clear not so beneficial contract.

Good luck in playing the game.

And remember, there is a certain preexisting enshrined seniority in place for other writers who you can't bypass. They have the right of way.
Old 6th March 2014
  #337
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haha..... come on then eldon, you're the one who thinks it's easy, show us your track that could top beatport if only for the connections and promotion budget that you lack.

Dont try telling us you're too busy, Mr. 20,000-words-in-one-thread-over-five-days!! Bhahahaa....
Old 6th March 2014
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
haha..... come on then eldon, you're the one who thinks it's easy, show us your track that could top beatport if only for the connections and promotion budget that you lack.

Dont try telling us you're too busy, Mr. 20,000-words-in-one-thread-over-five-days!! Bhahahaa....
Only if I were literally starving would I even attempt to write, track, mix, and get professionally mastered a song that is so dumbed down in content. The extremely difficult part is getting to the front of the line to get it promotionally catapulted when there are 1000's of songs like it with priority (someone like Chris Lago has to be distant in your rear view mirror in order to be a contender).

You need the focused mainstream 21st century pop music work ethic (which I don't have or want), the right industry contacts (which I don't have or want), the motivation (which I don't have or want) to artistically pander to the lowest common denominator (which I don't have or want).

It's all DIFFICULT, EXCEPT for the songwriting part, and maybe the mixing is a little challenging if you're not skilled enough. Anyone who really wants to write a song like that can, provided they have basic LMFAO song construction "skill" - it's very easy. The extremely difficult part is delivering it upstream ahead of all of the other fish in the stream. One might even have to assemble a cooperative team (something I don't have or want) if one isn't a jack of all trades.
Old 6th March 2014
  #339
after putting eldon on ignore, i can say this thread was pretty inspiring.
i really hope we can have threads that dissect every song in the charts, because it's so important to understand whats going on in that realm; musically and industry-wise.

•i now have love for avicii's production. never thought that would happen. there is something emotionally saturated about reverb drenched nexus sounds. this has unlocked a previously dark area for me in songcraft that i was hella excited to start cracking into at my daw last night.

•i am reminded that there is a sort of musical crust that one accrues when getting old that must be broken out of with increasing effort. you find yourself unable to listen to current pop without a level of contempt/general negativity. though the psychological reasons for this are too long winded to go into now, this is bad times for everyone. i'm back to being able to listen to pop and enjoy what i can without worry.

•moreover, this thread kind of inspired me to get out of a depressed funk i was in with my music. before reading the thread i was feeling like my current demo that i'm pitching is destined to fail across the board. it wasn't good enough for any decent labels to bite on, and it wasn't good enough for self release either. somehow this thread has moved me past that to a healthier place. i'm ready for all my demo packs to go unnoticed and just get back to pumping out music until i'm empty. but before that i will happily send demos to every possible person. just to say i tried it.

i know this thread wasn't really trying to do any of that, but somehow it did for me, and i thank you all; even eldon whose posts were thought provoking at first.

p.s.
i really want a thread now where gearslutz makes a pop song that will contend for the hot 100. maybe with all our musical skill and connections put together, we can equal an industry force. and we already have a perfect forward-thinking artist name to use: "Slut Gear"
Old 6th March 2014
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cetera View Post
you find yourself unable to listen to current pop without a level of contempt/general negativity. though the psychological reasons for this are too long winded to go into now, this is bad times for everyone.
Oh of course. The inherent psychological superiority of loving and unconditionally respecting Gaga's "Applause" and Avicii's "Wake Me Up". That is the epitome of an inherently snobbish response.

Do you think it could be that, maybe, just maybe, some listeners (old and young as well) might crave a little more depth of craft than what is consistently being put on the table ? That's not allowed without being designated as psychologically inferior ?
Old 6th March 2014
  #341
Gear Head
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHateMyUsername View Post
It's a successful pop song by the definition of that list, which is meant to reflect what most people listen to, and in pop music, the amount of listeners is probably the factor of sole importance in determining the success of a pop song. If you don't think that's a good indicator of musical quality, fine. "Successful pop song", does not necessarily mean the same as "good music". But that doesn't take Top 100 away from being a good place to start if you want to study pop music.
I agree, but would add that sales may be an even better indicator than listeners. Anyway, the success of a pop song is measurable. The OP recognized Wake Me Up's success (can't argue with hard data), but didn't feel it was "good." I think this thread ultimately became a discussion on the quality of current pop music (hits) with Wake Me Up simply being symbolic. It could have been Miley's, Wrecking Ball.

Not to hijack, but Katy's single, "Unconditionally," flopped (per her standards). Is that a "good" song? I think it would be interesting to reverse engineer a pop single that had every opportunity to be a hit.

This thread is great. The OP's query wasn't intended to elicit a Yes or No response. It required qualifying the answer and quantifying quality. With enough subjective analysis, you start to develop an objective standard. Not an easy process.
Old 6th March 2014
  #342
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If you tell a typical consumer of "generic music" that Verdi's operas, early Bee Gees, or Miles Davis are worth listening to, they will not spend a minute checking it out.
Why is that?
"You are the product of your environment". If you are not exposed to it, you don't even know of the existence of "different" music.

It is really not their fault that they think they are listening to great music.
Music is still alive but melody as we knew is in its death bed, just barely hanging on.

Even though technology is advancing by leaps and bounds, overall there is a decline in many aspects within the society.
No big surprise there.
Many great civilizations that flourished in the past reached an apex and then succumbed to its degenerate tendencies. The only difference nowadays is that it is a global phenomenon, not just a local one.

Run to the hills!!


HW
Old 6th March 2014
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss View Post
If you tell a typical consumer of "generic music" that Verdi's operas, early Bee Gees, or Miles Davis are worth listening to, they will not spend a minute checking it out.
Why is that?
Taste. Personal taste.

My 2c.
Old 6th March 2014
  #344
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
Taste. Personal taste.

My 2c.
And where does taste come from?
Old 6th March 2014
  #345
pop: ironically the one realm where you expect the melody to be great

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss View Post
Music is still alive but melody as we knew is in its death bed, just barely hanging on.
HW
someone else also mentioned it in this thread earlier.

this is really the only thing i find truly lamentable about current pop. the melodies sometimes sound like they could be randomly generated.

i don't hold pop to a very high musical standard. i don't really know much music theory, either. but it's pretty clear to me when i hear an inspired melody vs a mechanical one.

to my thinking, improving melodies shouldn't really weaken the songs at all in terms of pop-accessibility. but for some reason, nobody strives for it. it's almost as if melodies are but a perfunctory hassle to producers. a mere formality that allows them to start building their "special effects" onto.

i'm also really perplexed when people say a song is "catchy," but it doesn't have a strong melody at all. the song may have a really poppy feel and whatnot, but the melody itself is by no means an earworm. a lot of k-pop falls into this category for me.

i feel like this decline in pop melody is pretty indicative that the gatekeepers really don't listen to the music at all. it really is about who you know. your connection is going to push your song no matter what it is. they will take your uninspired thingy and make it sound gooooood. get enough of that activity going and you get a pop market full of very soulless songs sung by vocal gods and produced to extreme shimmer.
Old 6th March 2014
  #346
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Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSA7 View Post
For many, emulating the current Hot 100 won't insure they're writing a "good" pop song.
"Good" is subjective. It's up to each individual to determine. If you're looking for something like a "secret formula" or a guarantee of success, there is no such thing, no matter what sorts of gatekeepers or guiding assistance anyone in the industry provides.
Quote:
The issue implicitly raised by the OP's query was whether or not Wake Me Up was "good" pop songwriting. Again, defining "good" is critical to developing an objective pop songwriting standard.
There's no such thing, though, as some objective standard that will amount to "good" songwriting. Namely because "good" is not objective, and neither are standards, really.

If you're trying to write pop hits or whatever, you're more likely to succeed if you emulate the other stuff that's already successful in that arena (and currently successful, especially in a milieu like pop hits). That doesn't mean that you'll succeed or that anyone in particular is going to think that your material is good, but you're more likely to succeed by at least roughly following what's trump so to speak.

This should be pretty obvious.

You're going to be more likely to have a Hot 100 hit if you're trying to emulate features of Pharrell's "Happy" and/or Katy Perry's "Dark Horse" and/or Jason Derulo's "Talk Dirty" etc. than you will if you emulate features of Kazumoto Endo's While You Were Out or Coil's The Ape of Naples or Cornelius Cardew's The Great Learning. Though on the other hand if you're trying to appeal to the Endo/Coil/Cardew crowds (which do not necessarily overlap), you're more likely to succeed if you emulate features of those sorts of works rather than Pharrell et al.

None of that means that you will be successful and that people will like your work. But it's not that difficult to figure out what to concentrate on for your aims. You don't need stricter admission policies or stronger hand-holding guidance re the music-world at large for that, and those stricter admission policies and that guidance do not do anything to help guarantee success anyway.
Old 6th March 2014
  #347
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Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHateMyUsername View Post
And I don't think Carnalia Barcus meant looking to the Hot 100 for the sake of emulation, as much as searching for common traits that signify successful pop songs.
I don't really see that as different. I mean you're not going to emulate just one tune, because if you do that closely enough to make it count, you're just plagiarizing. But you want to emulate various features of the currently successful crop if you want to increase your likelihood of success.

It's not that other sorts of things can't become just as popular, but if a major goal is to find success--financial success, chart success, etc., you need to look at it--the top 100, or the adult contemporary charts, or whatever you're interested in, including Coil-like music or whatever, as a genre, and a genre in the sense of it being successful because there are a lot of people who like those specific sorts of features. You increase your likelihood of success if you do things characteristic of the genre you're shooting for, characteristic of what's currently successful.

Usually people just end up doing this automatically, by the way. You love some genre(s) or other as a music fan to a point where characteristics of that genre pretty much become internalized for you, and that comes out when you create music . . . and this is why it's so much easier to create music that you're a fan of. You can steer yourself to other genres and learn new things of course, but if you're trying to write a top 100 pop hit, and you don't really know or even actually like stuff that's currently on the top 100, you're setting yourself up for that much more of a Herculean task. If you really want a top 100 pop hit, you'd better be spending a lot of time listening to stuff that's on the top 100, and at least try to find some aspects of it that you admire.
Old 6th March 2014
  #348
Things from the past are always better than the present... Strange or is it?
Old 6th March 2014
  #349
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Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSA7 View Post
I like pop including some of the current Hot 100 songs, but is the songwriting "good" because they are in the Hot 100? I'm just not comfortable with the Hot 100 being the final arbiter of "good" any more than I'm comfortable with Wake Me Up's Spotify numbers being an indicator of "good."
A song is good, to an individual, because the individual likes it. That's all there is to that.

If your goal is to have tunes on the Hot 100, all that matters is that the sort of folks who typically like a lot of the tunes on the Hot 100, who typically feel that they're good, also like your tune--they're the ones who made that stuff end up on the Hot 100 in the first place. You need to appeal to those folks enough that they'll buy/stream/download your music, so that radio programmers will play it, etc. In order to do that, you pretty much need to give them stuff that has a family resemblance to the stuff they already like.
Old 6th March 2014
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cetera View Post

i feel like this decline in pop melody is pretty indicative that the gatekeepers really don't listen to the music at all. it really is about who you know. your connection is going to push your song no matter what it is. they will take your uninspired thingy and make it sound gooooood. get enough of that activity going and you get a pop market full of very soulless songs sung by vocal gods and produced to extreme shimmer.

What are some classic pop songs who's melodies you love?

To me there are definitely some paint-by-numbers melodies out there right now, but I also find some very inspiring. Curious about your reference point for a great pop melody.
Old 6th March 2014
  #351
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Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSA7 View Post
I agree, but would add that sales may be an even better indicator than listeners.
Billboard uses a combination of sales, streaming and radio play.
Quote:
Anyway, the success of a pop song is measurable. The OP recognized Wake Me Up's success (can't argue with hard data), but didn't feel it was "good." I think this thread ultimately became a discussion on the quality of current pop music (hits) with Wake Me Up simply being symbolic. It could have been Miley's, Wrecking Ball.
Imagine that whether something is good or not is an objective fact, and that "Wake Me Up", or Pharrell's "Happy", or whatever, are not objectively good songs.

Well, so what? What you need to ask yourself is what your goals are. If your goal is to create songs that are hits, that are financially successful in that arena so that you can have a music career as a pop songwriter, then apparently "good" is irrelevant. Why worry about that?

If your goal is to create objectively "good" music, regardless of whether anyone cares about it or not, then this thread is probably irrelevant for you, because it would have nothing to do with whether a song is a hit.

Just make sure that if your goal is to create objectively good music under this scenario, you have some non-musical means of paying your bills.
Old 6th March 2014
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepc0re View Post
And where does taste come from?
The way your individual brain is structured and functions.
Old 6th March 2014
  #353
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
A song is good, to an individual, because the individual likes it. That's all there is to that.

If your goal is to have tunes on the Hot 100, all that matters is that the sort of folks who typically like a lot of the tunes on the Hot 100, who typically feel that they're good, also like your tune--they're the ones who made that stuff end up on the Hot 100 in the first place. You need to appeal to those folks enough that they'll buy/stream/download your music, so that radio programmers will play it, etc. In order to do that, you pretty much need to give them stuff that has a family resemblance to the stuff they already like.
I think you've made your points, and made them well. The horse of subjectivity vs objectivity is now completely dead. I wonder if perhaps you could accept this, and allow the rest of us to bask in our subjective discussion while you continue your argument on a philosophy forum.
Old 6th March 2014
  #354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
The way your individual brain is structured and functions.
If you go a step deeper than that you have the society, childhood, age etc which form your tastes.

If you have watched Michael bay movies your whole childhood and are not "deep" into movies, you will probably find a Kubrick or Tarkovsky movie utter boring. Why? Because it require more effort and concentration to appreciate and understand than what you are used to. Same with music.

So sure it due to a different taste, but that taste comes and is formed from somewhere and not a black hole.
Old 6th March 2014
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss View Post
Music is still alive but melody as we knew is in its death bed, just barely hanging on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cetera View Post
this is really the only thing i find truly lamentable about current pop. the melodies sometimes sound like they could be randomly generated.
Hmm, that's weird. I think a lot of big pop songs still have good catchy melodies, they're just so unadventurous harmonically and rhythmically. And the arrangements and production are often pretty generic too.
Old 6th March 2014
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
Hey it's all good, he's in my ignore list.
While I bump your promo-thread.

Haters gonna hate !
Old 6th March 2014
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cetera View Post
someone else also mentioned it in this thread earlier.

this is really the only thing i find truly lamentable about current pop. the melodies sometimes sound like they could be randomly generated.

i don't hold pop to a very high musical standard. i don't really know much music theory, either. but it's pretty clear to me when i hear an inspired melody vs a mechanical one.

to my thinking, improving melodies shouldn't really weaken the songs at all in terms of pop-accessibility. but for some reason, nobody strives for it. it's almost as if melodies are but a perfunctory hassle to producers. a mere formality that allows them to start building their "special effects" onto.

i'm also really perplexed when people say a song is "catchy," but it doesn't have a strong melody at all. the song may have a really poppy feel and whatnot, but the melody itself is by no means an earworm. a lot of k-pop falls into this category for me.

i feel like this decline in pop melody is pretty indicative that the gatekeepers really don't listen to the music at all. it really is about who you know. your connection is going to push your song no matter what it is. they will take your uninspired thingy and make it sound gooooood. get enough of that activity going and you get a pop market full of very soulless songs sung by vocal gods and produced to extreme shimmer.
I agree, though others don't have to if they want to divorce themselves from the old school approach. It's actually their artistic prerogative. But not all listeners have to cheer it on blindly/uncritically.


Brian Wilson once said, "The chords inspire the melodies, and the melodies inspire the words", but sometimes the old-school ways are just too demanding and time consuming and technological shortcuts are available, making the Brian Wilson, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, (even Bach and Thelonious Monk) approach to songwriting easily wastebasketed.

I really think the relationship between harmonic knowledge/imagination and melodic theme building (especially in regards to variations and transformations) is not dismissable. The entire history of Baroque, Classical, Romantic & 20th century composers along with the entire history of American Jazz documents the relationship quite well.

But ignorance (of the old-school approach) is often bliss, and trite & mechanical melodies often win in the pursuit of something "new sounding". It was likely inevitable, given the trajectory of humanity and technology.
Old 6th March 2014
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepc0re View Post
Things from the past are always better than the present... Strange or is it?
Music is actually better now than before if one value's :

1) Relentlessly loud & clear productions

2) Relentlessly loud & aggressive rhythms & beats

3) Emphasis on pitch-repetitive & rhythm-based melodies

4) Hi-tech wizardry and impressively modern sound effects

5) Greater focus on image, personality and hype

6) A megablast of sonic energy rooted in pure fun, immediately digested / processed as if it were intraveneously injected

7) Less emphasis on complex & unpredictable chord structure

8) Less emphasis on natural, organic, traditional sonics & instruments

9) Less emphasis on instrumental solos and virtuoisuty

10) Less emphasis on intricate basslines and counterpoint

11) Less emphasis on deeply poetic and serious lyrics, dealing with the socio-economic-political world in which we live

12) Less emphasis on dynamics

13) Less emphasis on unpredictable song structure

14) Less emphasis on traditional arrangement skills and orchestral awareness
Old 6th March 2014
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fidelity castro View Post
I think you've made your points, and made them well. The horse of subjectivity vs objectivity is now completely dead. I wonder if perhaps you could accept this, and allow the rest of us to bask in our subjective discussion while you continue your argument on a philosophy forum.
It's hard to do, but I'm sure he can if he really tries. I mean, he seems to have the intellectual resources IMO.

Momentum and impulses are factors though (we all struggle with it, me too).
Old 6th March 2014
  #360
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
What are some classic pop songs who's melodies you love?

To me there are definitely some paint-by-numbers melodies out there right now, but I also find some very inspiring. Curious about your reference point for a great pop melody.
oh thats not to say that i'm bored with all the melodies in the hot 100 recently. a few of them hit the spot. locked out of heaven, beauty and a beat, a bunch of stuff from capital cities (but do they really count?) a bunch of slightly old rihanna stuff, some skrillex and avicii (sometimes they hit on decent instrumental melodies) dont wake me up (as opposed to wake me up) some katy perry and kesha. dont you worry child (although only the SWM version is enjoyable for me) this is a pathetic list but it's just off my head. my point is i think i like a melody here and there in modern pop.

in terms of past melodies that could still be contenders in todays market...

i think it climaxed in the 80s. it's hard to find hits with weak melodies from that decade. so i'll just lump in most of the hot 100 from each of those years. but the 60s and 70s had a ton of strong ones too.

some standouts are the beatles and nirvana, who seemed to be able to churn out these melody-based numbers where the lyrics and the music style truly didn't matter. queen is another master class in pop melody.
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