The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Avicii's 'Wake Me Up' hits 200 million streams in Spotify. Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 4th March 2014
  #301
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
With his mind exquisitely sharpened by pop songs
I think he's doing another Am / G / F / G / Am progression right now, and the melody is not all root notes this time.
Old 4th March 2014
  #302
Lives for gear
 

The only way out of this pointless (invisible ball) ping-pong match is to hand the thread back to those most rightfully entitled : lurkers who haven't yet stated their (PERSONAL) opinions on the song in question.
Old 4th March 2014
  #303
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
The only way out of this pointless (invisible ball) ping-pong match is to hand the thread back to those most rightfully entitled : lurkers who haven't yet stated their (PERSONAL) opinions on the song in question.
Personally I appreciate the guitar work and the tone of the lead vocals. As far as songwriting goes, however, I think it's boring. My problem (when I have one) with pop songs is always the element of predictability. Strictly diatonic chord progressions and melodies don't give my ear anything to be surprised by, thus I am less likely to want to listen to them again.
Old 4th March 2014
  #304
Gear Maniac
 
IHateMyUsername's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
The only way out of this pointless (invisible ball) ping-pong match is to hand the thread back to those most rightfully entitled : lurkers who haven't yet stated their (PERSONAL) opinions on the song in question.
Great timing! I've been reading through this discussion until now, and I suppose sharing my first reaction to this song would be a great way to start my response.

---

The first time I heard this song was on SoundCloud, early June last summer. I remember it very well. No one tipped me about it, I just entered his SoundCloud profile through the "Who To Follow" window on my page. Here, one can draw many assumptions as to why I did that exactly then, and I would dare to assume that his name appeared in my "Who To Follow" window, for me to recognize, as a consequence of rising activity on his profile the last couple of days, probably due to some well-planned marketing moves, mechanisms in SoundCloud's programming, or other "magic".

Having heard Avicii's "Levels" a few times earlier, and not being thoroughly impressed with it, I felt I had a fair understanding of what his music was about. Still, I can confirm, that when I pushed the "play" button of "Wake Me Up", I was startled. "A single acoustic guitar? And no four-on-the-floor? What's going on?!" That sums up my raw first reaction to the beginning seconds of the song. The feeling of wonder kept lasting, and a question started churning in my mind "How will he solve this?" The vocals entered, and everything was still working well. I made a cold guess that the beat would enter after the first 8 bars of the first verse. Still no beat.

Then, after another verse, the chorus. The beat came lurking in, but rather softly still. Not exactly a dance tune? Maybe it's really just a song? Or is it a dance tune? Or both? He had at least solved the problems posed by the beginning to the spot, seen from an isolated perspective on the song itself. Then, the break. And I'll have you know, breaks in regular pop tunes usually seem rather imposed, I find. This? In stead of imposing, it added something. It was a synthesis, not mere juxtaposition, and it resulted in something I couldn't recall hearing ANYWHERE before. Here, I will come with a statement: If you fail to recognize that difference, that is sufficient to bring into question your understanding of composition. Not the material, not the structure, but how it works.

Then, FINALLY, the beat, in its full glory. I'm not going into the beat itself, though. It's a beat, whatever! But in relation to everything else, it was the inevitable answer. Then, when the beat ended, the guitar riff entered, just jamming along softly, for some time. Who dares to write that into a "formulaic hit song"? "The vocals should enter as quickly as possible", I hear you say. Well, he leaves us waiting for both the beat and the vocals, that jackal. And it's not important that Dream Theater "did it longer". It is what it is, and for just as long as it needs to be. That's composition.

The second verse comes and goes, just floating after the break, and the second chorus enters. Here, the chorus and the classical house beat finally comes together, leading us straight into the next drop, with "Didn't Know I Was Lost" ringing in the background. A good solution for making a repetition into something else - another synthesis - just this time within the boundaries of the material of the song itself. The beat enters for the second time, this being the strongest dynamic the song has reached at the point. Then, he brings it up even a notch, giving it all the classical "happy ending".

---

All the paragraphs, except the last one, I can confirm as the description of my immediate reaction to this song. During the last part I was simply caught up. But to say that "Wake Me Up" is not a well-done composition within its scope as a pop song will pose nothing but questions on my behalf. Though, if it is the scope, and the concept of the pop song you want to criticize, then I say you are either biased, or searching in the wrong place. If you have a problem with the current paradigm of music, then make it a discussion of the paradigm, not the music. Music in itself is harmless, and nothing in need of intellectualization. If you want to do something of intellectual or ideological importance, I suggest you find something else to do, than making music. If you make music, you do it because you like making music. It is just a drug, and by my distinction, the best drug, because no one owns it. It is everywhere, and if someone is so unfortunate as to believe that music itself ever can be owned, I am very sorry for them. Eldon - no one has stolen music. On the other hand, if you want to make it simpler for everyone to make the music they want, I say keep fighting. I would still very much like to hear what you think should be done with the problems you see in the music world of today.

Regards,
Old 4th March 2014
  #305
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Another real world check, as opposed to your rewriting the world to fit your ideology:

Harrison put "something" on ice for 6 months because he thought it was no good. It was only after he received your Pavlovian reward in the form of approval from others that he came to love the song.
Most if not all true artists suffer enormous self doubt about their work which can cause temporary ambivalence about even the greatest songs. I think the truth outs in the end though.

Of course professional pop-hacks are probably the kind of unselfconsciously confident, empty people who wouldn't suffer those kinds of things…


Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
"underlying motivation as a measure of artistic merit" to border complete absurdity.
I agree. I don't think anyone is trying to use underlying motivation as a metric of worth in and of itself but are instead pointing to it as a contributing factor in why most of this music is utterly vacuous, musically deficient, and tends to suck enormous donkey balls… so to speak.
Old 5th March 2014
  #306
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fidelity castro View Post
Personally I appreciate the guitar work and the tone of the lead vocals. As far as songwriting goes, however, I think it's boring. My problem (when I have one) with pop songs is always the element of predictability. Strictly diatonic chord progressions and melodies don't give my ear anything to be surprised by, thus I am less likely to want to listen to them again.
I'm with you on that.

The acoustic guitar (strummed impeccably, rapidfire style) by Incubus' Mike Einziger, is one of the truly redeeming aspects of the song IMO, and along with the relatively non-trite lyrical concept and decent melodic elaborations by the singer (neat, because he didn't let the railroaded chord pattern limit his melodic phrasing at all), are some of the reasons I really can't totally trash the song.

I sympathize with the OP's reactions to the somewhat unstable vocal delivery, but at least it's not awash in autotune.

I'm still trying to come to terms with the instrumental break though, oh God give me the strength to do that.
Old 5th March 2014
  #307
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHateMyUsername View Post
Great timing! I've been reading through this discussion until now, and I suppose sharing my first reaction to this song would be a great way to start my response.

---

The first time I heard this song was on SoundCloud, early June last summer. I remember it very well. No one tipped me about it, I just entered his SoundCloud profile through the "Who To Follow" window on my page. Here, one can draw many assumptions as to why I did that exactly then, and I would dare to assume that his name appeared in my "Who To Follow" window, for me to recognize, as a consequence of rising activity on his profile the last couple of days, probably due to some well-planned marketing moves, mechanisms in SoundCloud's programming, or other "magic".

Having heard Avicii's "Levels" a few times earlier, and not being thoroughly impressed with it, I felt I had a fair understanding of what his music was about. Still, I can confirm, that when I pushed the "play" button of "Wake Me Up", I was startled. "A single acoustic guitar? And no four-on-the-floor? What's going on?!" That sums up my raw first reaction to the beginning seconds of the song. The feeling of wonder kept lasting, and a question started churning in my mind "How will he solve this?" The vocals entered, and everything was still working well. I made a cold guess that the beat would enter after the first 8 bars of the first verse. Still no beat.

Then, after another verse, the chorus. The beat came lurking in, but rather softly still. Not exactly a dance tune? Maybe it's really just a song? Or is it a dance tune? Or both? He had at least solved the problems posed by the beginning to the spot, seen from an isolated perspective on the song itself. Then, the break. And I'll have you know, breaks in regular pop tunes usually seem rather imposed, I find. This? In stead of imposing, it added something. It was a synthesis, not mere juxtaposition, and it resulted in something I couldn't recall hearing ANYWHERE before. Here, I will come with a statement: If you fail to recognize that difference, that is sufficient to bring into question your understanding of composition. Not the material, not the structure, but how it works.

Then, FINALLY, the beat, in its full glory. I'm not going into the beat itself, though. It's a beat, whatever! But in relation to everything else, it was the inevitable answer. Then, when the beat ended, the guitar riff entered, just jamming along softly, for some time. Who dares to write that into a "formulaic hit song"? "The vocals should enter as quickly as possible", I hear you say. Well, he leaves us waiting for both the beat and the vocals, that jackal. And it's not important that Dream Theater "did it longer". It is what it is, and for just as long as it needs to be. That's composition.

The second verse comes and goes, just floating after the break, and the second chorus enters. Here, the chorus and the classical house beat finally comes together, leading us straight into the next drop, with "Didn't Know I Was Lost" ringing in the background. A good solution for making a repetition into something else - another synthesis - just this time within the boundaries of the material of the song itself. The beat enters for the second time, this being the strongest dynamic the song has reached at the point. Then, he brings it up even a notch, giving it all the classical "happy ending".

---

All the paragraphs, except the last one, I can confirm as the description of my immediate reaction to this song. During the last part I was simply caught up. But to say that "Wake Me Up" is not a well-done composition within its scope as a pop song will pose nothing but questions on my behalf. Though, if it is the scope, and the concept of the pop song you want to criticize, then I say you are either biased, or searching in the wrong place. If you have a problem with the current paradigm of music, then make it a discussion of the paradigm, not the music. Music in itself is harmless, and nothing in need of intellectualization. If you want to do something of intellectual or ideological importance, I suggest you find something else to do, than making music. If you make music, you do it because you like making music. It is just a drug, and by my distinction, the best drug, because no one owns it. It is everywhere, and if someone is so unfortunate as to believe that music itself ever can be owned, I am very sorry for them. Eldon - no one has stolen music. On the other hand, if you want to make it simpler for everyone to make the music they want, I say keep fighting. I would still very much like to hear what you think should be done with the problems you see in the music world of today.

Regards,
Great review, as it really reflects and illuminates your personal reaction to the song.

But my individual opinion, and yours are nothing more than drops in an ocean. All have personal bias, and are not manifestations of objective, universal truth.

As for problems in the industry ? That (opinion) depends on if you think the bigwigs have too much power and if you think the little guy is too often being relegated to oblivion and starvation.

My fantasy solution is for those who have major music industry control (Universal, EMI, Warner, Sony - and the mainstream media sources such as ABC, NBC, CBS & CNN, who function as advertisers) to allot .1 to 1% of their resources to growing a fertile garden patch of alternative, progressively deep songwriters who are allowed to fail and/or bloom, just for the sake of artistic enlightenment.

The realistic solution (which is already happening fairly well) is just for people to seek out music outside of the mainstream, and vote with their wallets by supporting the little guy / the lesser known independent sources, especially buying directly from the artist without any middle man.
Old 5th March 2014
  #308
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
I'm still trying to come to terms with the instrumental break though, oh God give me the strength to do that.
It's funny that the instrumental break would be the part that Avicii himself did the most actual "creative" work on. I watched a little "in the studio" video with him, and it's clear that he has no keyboard skills at all, tinkering and meandering aimlessly. Now, I won't judge just based on poor keyboard skills, so I'll also add that seeing him move midi notes around with the mouse, having no idea of what he's doing, basically just waiting for luck to strike shows me that he also has no real songwriting knowledge. It's no wonder that the instrumental break is so trite, given those observations.
Old 5th March 2014
  #309
Quote:
Originally Posted by fidelity castro View Post
It's funny that the instrumental break would be the part that Avicii himself did the most actual "creative" work on. I watched a little "in the studio" video with him, and it's clear that he has no keyboard skills at all, tinkering and meandering aimlessly. Now, I won't judge just based on poor keyboard skills, so I'll also add that seeing him move midi notes around with the mouse, having no idea of what he's doing, basically just waiting for luck to strike shows me that he also has no real songwriting knowledge. It's no wonder that the instrumental break is so trite, given those observations.
You should check this video, this is one of the guys in swedish house mafia..



40 minutes to come up with that? And you are suppose to be a hit producer ?
Old 5th March 2014
  #310
Gear Maniac
 
IHateMyUsername's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
Great review, as it really reflects and illuminates your personal reaction to the song.

But my individual opinion, and yours are nothing more than drops in an ocean. All have personal bias, and are not manifestations of objective, universal truth.

As for problems in the industry ? That (opinion) depends on if you think the bigwigs have too much power and if you think the little guy is too often being relegated to oblivion and starvation.

My fantasy solution is for those who have major music industry control (Universal, EMI, Warner, Sony - and the mainstream media sources such as ABC, NBC, CBS & CNN, who function as advertisers) to allot .1 to 1% of their resources to growing a fertile garden patch of alternative, progressively deep songwriters who are allowed to fail and/or bloom, just for the sake of artistic enlightenment.

The realistic solution (which is already happening fairly well) is just for people to seek out music outside of the mainstream, and vote with their wallets by supporting the little guy / the lesser known independent sources, especially buying directly from the artist without any middle man.
Thank you. I'm glad to get to know what you really want to happen, because after all, it's not that radical, as your earlier posts could make one believe, and from that perspective, I appreciate your taking on the role of a whistleblower (although I still think you could have found a better platform).

And to what you're actually saying here, I say I'm totally with you on it, and frankly, I do think your description of the current situation, as given in your last paragraph, is a good summary of the latest "development in the field".
I would go as far as to say that the music industry of today is already going bonkers. And it's not a bad thing. People seem a bit worried about how the musicians are supposed to live off their work, but it's not as if music itself is dying. Just being reborn, you could say. I think there will always be a way, and the only thing to do is to try and handle the situation to the best of the musicians (and not the market, because the market has enough supporters, that is, anyone who is not living off music). Therefore, I say stop using Spotify, if you think you're helping music with it. You're just helping a system, and a system which isn't working very well at that, if what you're after is supporting the musician. Find other arenas to search for music.

I think we're going into a period where the middle-men are disappearing, like you say. People have the means of publishing their own music, and the means for making and spreading music are also becoming more and more available for everyone. For this to happen properly, there will of course have to be a crisis in the musical environment of today, but I say it's well here already, and it's a necessary thing. We just have to be there when it happens, because you never know who will be there to take advantage of the situation.

Thinking of that, I think we could gain a lot from making this forum a much more political one. Not in the form of discussing politics, but forming an agenda to support the role of the musician, because we're clearly enough people here to do that. Like Jason's been saying, we're not alone. Therefore, I think it might be time we started acting together.
Old 5th March 2014
  #311
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHateMyUsername View Post

I think we're going into a period where the middle-men are disappearing, like you say. People have the means of publishing their own music, and the means for making and spreading music are also becoming more and more available for everyone. For this to happen properly, there will of course have to be a crisis in the musical environment of today, but I say it's well here already, and it's a necessary thing. We just have to be there when it happens, because you never know who will be there to take advantage of the situation.

Thinking of that, I think we could gain a lot from making this forum a much more political one. Not in the form of discussing politics, but forming an agenda to support the role of the musician, because we're clearly enough people here to do that. Like Jason's been saying, we're not alone. Therefore, I think it might be time we started acting together.

What does that mean exactly, "support the role of the musician"?

If distribution is instant and worldwide with almost no cost, and great productions can be made in the bedroom for not much money, then musicians are already free to make exactly what they want and release it to the world. Moreso than ever.

Therefore all this music should already be out there. No one's being oppressed, no one's being told what to write, no one's being held down by some system. Its wide open, as open as ever in the history of recorded music.

Which would bring up one of two scenarios for those uphappy with music:

1. Its being made and distributed, but they can't find it

or

2. Its not being made due to lack of interest


If option 1, then put in more work as the listener/fan to find what you love, and maybe root for a system that exposes more people (though I find over-saturation to be more of the real world issue here).

If option 2, then some corporate donation of 1% or any sort of "musician support system" won't make a difference as to the actual music that gets made. People are already fully able to write, record, produce, and distribute exactly what they want, therefore the music getting made is exactly what people are wanting to write! If you're not into ANYTHING going on in 2014, then some systemic change where musicians are financially supported by a corporation isn't going to change a thing. Musicians can so easily self-support these days with the ridiculously low costs of production and distribution that everyone is already making what they want.

I just don't see any sort of oppression going down at all. . . its not the 1980s where everything is on lock and the big labels are raking in billions with talent bottlenecking up behind them trying to get a chance at production and distribution. Anyone can put out exactly what they want, and connect to others interested in the sound.
Old 5th March 2014
  #312
Gear Head
 
HSA7's Avatar
 

Right or wrong, the pre melt down major label system had gate keepers, filters, songwriting criteria as a bar to entry. Yes, this was an exclusionary and oppressive system, but pop songwriters understood those industry gate keeper mandates to be quantifiable standards (right or wrong). If you're a pop songwriter trying to make it in the music industry today, wouldn't you want uniformity and direction from the industry itself? A strictly subjective pop songwriting standard is freeing and liberating for the critic, but how does that help the pop songwriter write a pop hit that the music industry, pop artists (and masses) will want? Wake Me Up isn't the global issue here, it is simply the catalyst. The query exposed a bigger issue that has existed for years now. That said, many here may feel that there is no issue. There's the rub.
Old 5th March 2014
  #313
Lives for gear
 

Apparently, not only are all of the recently released mainstream songs perfect, but the entire mainstream system is perfect as well. Hilarious.
Old 5th March 2014
  #314
Lives for gear
 
Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

There seems to be a common belief among the posters on this site that there's not a huge range of ways you can approach music-creation and make a living with it . . . which seems weird to me if one is a professional or aspiring professional musician (or composer, arranger, etc.), because I would expect a broader familiarity with the scope of the business.

This isn't something new. There's been a huge range of ways that one can approach music-creation and make a living with it for over 100 years.

If one wants to focus on creating Billboard-topping chart hits, which is fine, you do not need "uniformity and direction from the industry itself". Simply make a practice out of regularly listening to and studying the range of stuff that is and was a Billboard-topping chart hit and use that as at least a rough guide of the sorts of musical features to focus on.
Old 5th March 2014
  #315
Lives for gear
 

Those (tremendously oversized) rose-colored glasses of his were built by and for the system.

And what % of musicians are currently making the average annual income, according to the delusionally optimistic ones ? They would maintain that EVERYONE can earn a comfortable living off their music (a blind faith theory in the system, certainly not contemporary reality).
Old 5th March 2014
  #316
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
Those rose-colored glasses of his were built by and for the system.

And what % of musicians are currently making the average annual income, according to the delusionally optimistic ones ? They would maintain that EVERYONE can earn a comfortable living off their music (a blind faith theory in the system, certainly not contemporary reality).
I'm not saying that everyone can make a comfortable living. One out of five small businesses succeed, there's not room for everyone to be a successful entrepreneur, its an unfortunate condition of planet Earth that only the fittest survive, and the creative fields are by far some of the most competitive.

I'm saying every musician in the western world has the tools at their disposal to make and distribute exactly what they want for a relatively low cost. Therefore this music that you think people WOULD be making in some corporate-sponsored socialized-music-making system SHOULD ALREADY BE GETTING MADE if there's any real-world interest at all in it. If its not out there, it means no one cares enough about it to make it. And that has nothing to do with the major label pop market or system.
Old 5th March 2014
  #317
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
its an unfortunate condition of planet Earth that only the fittest survive,
That's the animal kingdom, and the blind acceptance of applying that natural law penalty to human beings is really right out of an Ayn Rand book. It's really about serving the top 1% while the bottom scrambles for crumbs.

Obviously newguy1 supports the dog-eat-dog, sink-or-swim corporatist paradigm.
Old 5th March 2014
  #318
Gear Head
 
HSA7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
If one wants to focus on creating Billboard-topping chart hits, which is fine, you do not need "uniformity and direction from the industry itself". Simply make a practice out of regularly listening to and studying the range of stuff that is and was a Billboard-topping chart hit and use that as at least a rough guide of the sorts of musical features to focus on.

What range of pop hits exactly? Some would measure Wake Me Up against pop hits by Sinatra, Elvis, The Beatles, Dylan, MJ, The Police, U2, Madonna, Nirvana, Oasis, Green Day, Linkin Park, Mariah, Britney, Justin, Beyonce, Taylor, Bruno, Katy, etc. Others would say that that comparison would be unfair for a number of reasons. For example, even though Nirvana was required to write as "good" as the Beatles to have a pop hit, those two bands are different genres from Avicci and Katy (or are they?).
Old 5th March 2014
  #319
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHateMyUsername View Post
I think we're going into a period where the middle-men are disappearing, like you say.
Hopefully this is indeed the case outside of the big 4 mega-conglomerate corporate entities (within those ivory towers, I doubt it). But middle-men will always try to weasel their way in. Anymore than a 5% cut should be viewed with scrutiny. They are parasites.
Old 5th March 2014
  #320
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
minor detail
Minor details are cumulative and significant.
Old 5th March 2014
  #321
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHateMyUsername View Post
Therefore, I say stop using Spotify, if you think you're helping music with it. You're just helping a system, and a system which isn't working very well at that, if what you're after is supporting the musician. Find other arenas to search for music.
What are your suggestions for alternatives?

Quote:
I think we're going into a period where the middle-men are disappearing,
Just want to comment that many middle-men have been eliminated in the creation (recording) of music productions. However, there will always be some form of intermediary acting as a filter between music's (initial) dissemination and mass audiences' exposure to it. The filter simply evolves from record labels + radio playlist programmers to another form... say mega music blogs (youtube spotlight, or Reverbnation Song-of-the-day) or popular tv show song placements. Even a crowd-sourced "hits list" with voting buttons will eventually converge/coalesce into a focal point that millions of eyeballs would voluntarily pay attention to. Therefore, the complaint about the masses following "herd behavior" would still be there in future scenarios... it's just shifted from one entity to another.

The reason some type of filter will always exist is mathematical: the vast quantity of music musicians are releasing outpaces the small and finite time the music buyers have to hear any of it. Therefore, some "curation" filter will always exist. That's not to say a future version of that filter can't be more ideal than the gatekeepers of the past such as record labels but it's impossible for the masses to have a consistent direct line into all emerging new musicians. The masses require curation and they always will. The recent spelunking mentioned by theblue1 using Forgetify is something that music geeks will embark on; it's not an activity the masses would do. Music (both as an experience and as a end product) is peripheral and not central to most people's lives.

One of the ramifications from the culture filter (which to state again, is impossible to completely remove), is that there will also always be some Power Law distribution in popularity (and hence income) for musicians. I see no free-market scenario where you could construct a utopia of evenly-distributed monetary rewards across all genres and across all musicians within those genres. I guess one could imagine a very different scenario where the government took all music receipts and redistributed them but that's so far from reality that it's just a thought exercise.

If you take a group of 10 friends (say 10 high school teens), we can't expect each person to have 10 completely separate music playlists with zero overlap with each other. People want some overlap and commonality -- that's how culture works. ("Hey listen to this new song I just got...") This human need to share (some) of the same music will also contribute to a Power Law distribution.

Is all this "fair" to non-mainstream music makers? Well, that could be a whole separate discussion. To begin with, one has to understand why people act the way do. Why will the masses buy beer in greater quantities instead of green tea even if the beer costs more money?! People aren't buying the beer to antagonize the makers of green tea. People do what they like.

EDIT TO ADD: The non-mainstream musicians of course can still make significant money. Just don't expect a new business climate that lets them make Beyonce or Rihanna levels of money.

Quote:
Like Jason's been saying, we're not alone.
Yep. The anti-pop is the majority sentiment. That's fine. Anyways, I wish you guys (not directed specifically at you, but as a group) would direct more energy into uploading/linking some of your anti-pop songs that we can hear (which by extension, you also want the world to hear and reward you with) instead of constantly rehashing 1960s.

I think whatever is "anti-pop" now are the seeds of what is "pop" tomorrow. I'd like to hear more of whatever you guys think that is.
Old 5th March 2014
  #322
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
Anyways, I wish you guys (not directed specifically at you, but as a group) would direct more energy into uploading/linking some of your anti-pop songs that we can hear (which by extension, you also want the world to hear and reward you with) instead of constantly rehashing 1960s.
The 2 are not mutually exclusive, both can be done. Rehashing 1970's too.

The debut album by The Clash and The Sex Pistols lone studio album were actually directed into the mainstream by the corporate suits of the time. Amazing decline we're in (with regards to the pure stifledom of mainstream corporate methodology).

Outside of that corporate mainstream, there is a lot of "find the needle in the haystack and pay 10 dollars for it" kinda thing.
Old 5th March 2014
  #323
Lives for gear
 
Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSA7 View Post
What range of pop hits exactly?
Again, "the range of stuff that is and was a Billboard-topping chart hit". If you're shooting for the Hot 100, you concentrate on that. If you're shooting for the Adult Contemporary charts, then you concentrate on that. Etc. Just go to the Billboard site. There are a bunch of different charts.

And of course, you concentrate primarily on the stuff that is currently on the charts if you're trying to get on the charts now. The near past is helpful, too, and you can look back more, of course, but the further you look back the less relevance it's going to have to getting on the charts now.

It's really not that difficult to figure this out.
Old 5th March 2014
  #324
Gear Maniac
 
IHateMyUsername's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
What are your suggestions for alternatives?
If the goal is to support the musician, I'll say some kind of alternative where as much of the money as possible goes straight to the musician, naturally. Many exist already, in form of donation sites like kickstarter etc. Bandcamp comes to mind.. Preferably a bank account number? Haha.

My statement was not about the system, but rather a simple statement that there are better ways to support musicians than through Spotify. Simple, but true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
There will always be some form of intermediary acting as a filter between music's (initial) dissemination and mass audiences' exposure to it. The complaint about the masses following "herd behavior" would still be there in future scenarios... it's just shifted from one entity to another.
Quite true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
Is all this "fair" to non-mainstream music makers? Well, that could be a whole separate discussion. To begin with, one has to understand why people act the way do. Why will the masses buy beer in greater quantities instead of green tea even if the beer costs more money?! People aren't buying the beer to antagonize the makers of green tea. People do what they like.
I want to inform you that I'm not trying to make up some kind of antagonist to non-mainstream music makers. The only difficulty you will experience as one, is the one caused by your choice of not being in the mainstream. "The mainstream didn't try to antagonize you, you antagonized the mainstream". Still, solutions can always be worked out where more freedom is given to the ones who don't fit into that rubric, and as a forum of many who deal with just that problem, I can't see why people don't try to do something about it instead of sitting around here moaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
EDIT TO ADD: The non-mainstream musicians of course can still make significant money. Just don't expect a new business climate that lets them make Beyonce or Rihanna levels of money.
Now, we could ask how much these two people actually earn on music? Still, another question to pose then is why one would want to earn money solely on music anyway. Music is always played in a context. How many with a stated interest for music, are really just interested in contexts where music is played?

Would be interesting to hear about people's stances in relation to that question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
Yep. The anti-pop is the majority sentiment. That's fine. Anyways, I wish you guys (not directed specifically at you, but as a group) would direct more energy into uploading/linking some of your anti-pop songs that we can hear (which by extension, you also want the world to hear and reward you with) instead of constantly rehashing 1960s.
I'm pro-pop. Whatever that means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
I think whatever is "anti-pop" now are the seeds of what is "pop" tomorrow. I'd like to hear more of whatever you guys think that is.
Good question. I keep my eyes open for "cycles" in the development of music, and try to see what factors those cycles actually affect. It's hard to tell, considering many superficial, but still quite influential changes caused by e.g. advances in technology through the times.

To link this to the ongoing discussion, I am sure we can say the size of the space where new music can exist has varied through the times. When I say exist, I'm talking about the degree of existence and influence new music gets to have in society. In that respect, I think we have been on the way down for a little while, but again, the advances in technology have made quite new arenas for experimentation possible, now becoming significant enough for greater changes to happen.

I think we're heading into a pocket in time where control is diminished, and new expressions flourish. I think this will happen to a greater extent the more new solutions are being embraced, like the ones I mentioned in the start of my post. Existing solutions for distribution, like streaming services might solidify or lose ground, but I would like to see the latter being the case, as this is an important pillar for the established music scene to rest on. Yes, you understood me correctly, I would like the established music scene to have less control. It's directly related to the power law, in that the lack of controllability will affect the establishment negatively, intensifying the search for new ground - The establishment won't allow for experimentation before it becomes a necessity. By this, I'm not saying that the establishment is inherently bad or anything, but I don't mind change when it happens.

So, from the diminished control of the pop, the anti-pop gets a say, before everything becomes institutionalized once again. What music that will be, I don't mind guessing. Something noisy wouldn't surprise me, been a while now.
Old 5th March 2014
  #325
Lives for gear
 
Herr Weiss's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
Again, "the range of stuff that is and was a Billboard-topping chart hit". If you're shooting for the Hot 100, you concentrate on that. If you're shooting for the Adult Contemporary charts, then you concentrate on that. Etc. Just go to the Billboard site. There are a bunch of different charts.

And of course, you concentrate primarily on the stuff that is currently on the charts if you're trying to get on the charts now. The near past is helpful, too, and you can look back more, of course, but the further you look back the less relevance it's going to have to getting on the charts now.

It's really not that difficult to figure this out.

I'm not going to Billboard to see where my 12 best songs would fit, 'cause they are literally all over the place genrewise, so to speak.
I have no control over the muse, and dare not to change anything as not to offend her. She may never come back my way if I do.

Maybe, if there is a Melody Rules chart, but I doubt it exists. heh


HW
Old 6th March 2014
  #326
Gear Head
 
HSA7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus View Post
Again, "the range of stuff that is and was a Billboard-topping chart hit". If you're shooting for the Hot 100, you concentrate on that. If you're shooting for the Adult Contemporary charts, then you concentrate on that. Etc. Just go to the Billboard site. There are a bunch of different charts.

And of course, you concentrate primarily on the stuff that is currently on the charts if you're trying to get on the charts now. The near past is helpful, too, and you can look back more, of course, but the further you look back the less relevance it's going to have to getting on the charts now.

It's really not that difficult to figure this out.
For many, emulating the current Hot 100 won't insure they're writing a "good" pop song. It only insures they'll write a song, probably pop. The issue implicitly raised by the OP's query was whether or not Wake Me Up was "good" pop songwriting. Again, defining "good" is critical to developing an objective pop songwriting standard. Is that the goal here or am I way off?
Old 6th March 2014
  #327
Gear Maniac
 
IHateMyUsername's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSA7 View Post
For many, emulating the current Hot 100 won't insure they're writing a "good" pop song. It only insures they'll write a song, probably pop. The issue implicitly raised by the OP's query was whether or not Wake Me Up was "good" pop songwriting. Again, defining "good" is critical to developing an objective pop songwriting standard. Is that the goal here or am I way off?
If you're looking for objectivity, I guess the clearest definition you can find of a good pop song is whatever is situated at the top of the Hot 100. If you don't think so, that might as well tell more about your view on the Hot 100, or pop for that matter. And I don't think Carnalia Barcus meant looking to the Hot 100 for the sake of emulation, as much as searching for common traits that signify successful pop songs.
Old 6th March 2014
  #328
Lives for gear
 

Re: Career Ambition :

The danger happens when people (often ideological capitalists) try to convince other people that everyone can be in the top (Avicii) 1%. Of course, it's a fool's errand, a mathematical impossibility.

One might strive to emulate the career decision making sequence which preceded the jackpot won by the top 1%'er, but the dream theory doesn't match inevitable contemporary reality. The statistical manifestation tendency is rather constant, unless highly significant and/or fundamental systemic change occurs.

People need to set their sights a little lower, and emulate THOSE success models. Making $70,000/yr. aint too shabby.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/moan-...ts-2013-a.html

It would be even nicer to see the career configuration tactics of a freelancing musician earning $20,000-$30,000/yr. so that those beneath that (the majority of freelancing musicians) could aspire to more attainable career heights.
Old 6th March 2014
  #329
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss View Post
I have no control over the muse, and dare not to change anything as not to offend her. She may never come back my way if I do.
You're not articulate enough ? Hah !

It's great when the muse is working, no need to tamper or tweak. If it ain't broke then don't fix it, for muse-malfunction is bleak.
Old 6th March 2014
  #330
Gear Head
 
HSA7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHateMyUsername View Post
If you're looking for objectivity, I guess the clearest definition you can find of a good pop song is whatever is situated at the top of the Hot 100. If you don't think so, that might as well tell more about your view on the Hot 100, or pop for that matter. And I don't think Carnalia Barcus meant looking to the Hot 100 for the sake of emulation, as much as searching for common traits that signify successful pop songs.
I like pop including some of the current Hot 100 songs, but is the songwriting "good" because they are in the Hot 100? I'm just not comfortable with the Hot 100 being the final arbiter of "good" any more than I'm comfortable with Wake Me Up's Spotify numbers being an indicator of "good."
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump