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Can't sing but want to be a songwriter/producer
Old 14th June 2013
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Can't sing but want to be a songwriter/producer

Having produced for almost 3 years now, all my tracks have been practically free of vocal/lyrics. My goal is to get signed by a major label, mainly as a producer, but I'm not sure how to present my demos when I can't sing properly, let alone have a good place to record my vocals (I have good enough equipment though).

So I can either include crappy singing or just send an instrumental version which is sure gonna bore anyone who listens to it. There's of course autotune but even with autotune, I'm not sure if I can make it sound good enough.

I'm primarily looking for advice from someone who've been in the same situation as me. I know a lot of the top producers/songwriters cant sing themselves but because they are establish, they have access to and can work directly together with people who can.

Any advice about how to present a demo is more than welcome!
Thanks!
Old 14th June 2013
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

There are millions of wannabe singers around, and if your voice is that bad, 90% will probably be able to sing better than you, and most of them could sing for your demo. Of course, if you want to make a demo that does your tracks justice, you will want to find a decent singer, who may or may not charge for the privilege of recording his or her voice. But I have a feeling singers are bountiful; for every decent songwriter there are probably about 100 (1000?) decent singers.
Old 14th June 2013
  #3
Gear Addict
as long as you are singing in key I say use your own voice. Listen iris dement sing (if you haven't youtube her she sometimes sings with john prine). I feel*that the writers of their own songs put certain emotions in to it that are lacking when you get john doe to sing it for you.
Old 14th June 2013
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobstar View Post
Having produced for almost 3 years now, all my tracks have been practically free of vocal/lyrics. My goal is to get signed by a major label, mainly as a producer, but I'm not sure how to present my demos when I can't sing properly, let alone have a good place to record my vocals (I have good enough equipment though).

So I can either include crappy singing or just send an instrumental version which is sure gonna bore anyone who listens to it. There's of course autotune but even with autotune, I'm not sure if I can make it sound good enough.

I'm primarily looking for advice from someone who've been in the same situation as me. I know a lot of the top producers/songwriters cant sing themselves but because they are establish, they have access to and can work directly together with people who can.

Any advice about how to present a demo is more than welcome!
Thanks!
1) Learn to sing on key for composing purposes. Once your song is ready :

2) Hire a singer to sing your songs if you plan on submitting them for commercial purposes. People dismiss music immediately if the vocal doesn't sound good. Instrumental versions will get you nowhere.
Old 14th June 2013
  #5
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Ain't Nobody's Avatar
 

Singers are easy to find. A well-written Craigslist ad alone can provide more than you'll know what to do with.

You need to create a track record. Pick a singer, and do it from A-Z.

Forget about demos. The word demo needs to be stricken from the language. It's a concept that's run it's course from a bygone era.

Why would a label want to put resources into you when they can just look on Youtube, and find several other independent producers who have actually proven what they can do in the real world with actual sales figures and fan followings in place?

They're neck deep in "demos" they never even listen to while they're tripping over themselves trying to sign YT acts (some with multi-million signings) that did it all themselves and showed they could create a following.

Be the ball, Danny.
Old 14th June 2013
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aint Nobody View Post
Singers are easy to find. A well-written Craigslist ad alone can provide more than you'll know what to do with.

You need to create a track record. Pick a singer, and do it from A-Z.

Forget about demos. The word demo needs to be stricken from the language. It's a concept that's run it's course from a bygone era.

Why would a label want to put resources into you when they can just look on Youtube, and find several other independent producers who have actually proven what they can do in the real world with actual sales figures and fan followings in place?

They're neck deep in "demos" they never even listen to while they're tripping over themselves trying to sign YT acts (some with multi-million signings) that did it all themselves and showed they could create a following.

Be the ball, Danny.
Well said. I reiterate this quote to you.
Old 14th June 2013
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmanmatty View Post
as long as you are singing in key I say use your own voice. Listen iris dement sing (if you haven't youtube her she sometimes sings with john prine). I feel*that the writers of their own songs put certain emotions in to it that are lacking when you get john doe to sing it for you.
There's NO reason most folks can't develop their singing voices. Not everyone will rise to the heights, but most folks can learn to carry a tune. (Even if they start out supposedly 'tone deaf' -- I had great difficulties telling the highest of two close pitches when I started out and had, let's say, a painful lack of control; it was a bit of a long haul and I'm no Caruso now, my voice isn't pretty, but in the country/folk/blues framework in which I typically find myself, I'm not too out of place.)

But, of course, if I was singing secretary pop, I would have to bring a whole new approach (also a whole new visual as I'm not 23 and gigolo-hansdome -- anymore heh ).

But the gist is, yes, different people start out with different levels of raw 'talent' and, for sure, it can be a lot easier for some. But, with work, most any of us can learn how to make music of various kinds in various ways. And, if it matters to us, we can keep on improving that. Maybe most of us won't reach the heights (most don't anyhow) but isn't the journey of self-improvement often worth it on its own?

I know, when I started out, I would have been happy to be able to play a 3 chord song with a one octave range. But I seriously never dreamed I would be able to develop the musical skills I have (modest though they may be) based on what I was told by a couple of music teachers when I was a kid: "absolutely no musical talent whatsoever."


Now, all that said -- and with the understanding that just because you're a producer doesn't mean you can't learn how to sing and that it would be valuable to you as a producer, even if you never actually sang on a record -- there may well be very good common sense for choosing the path you indicate you want to take.

Not everyone is cut out for the spotlight -- and, you know, there's a lot of people who want in to that spotlight, a lot of competition. You have to bring a lot of game -- and be willing to be packaged and commoditized, the way things run now.

There's competition behind the scenes -- but that competition typically rests more on on actual skills (as well as -- as always -- who you know, you can't really escape it) than on the superficialities and aspirational planning of 'talent' grooming and packaging.
Old 14th June 2013
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobstar View Post
Having produced for almost 3 years now, all my tracks have been practically free of vocal/lyrics. My goal is to get signed by a major label, mainly as a producer, but I'm not sure how to present my demos when I can't sing properly, let alone have a good place to record my vocals (I have good enough equipment though).

So I can either include crappy singing or just send an instrumental version which is sure gonna bore anyone who listens to it. There's of course autotune but even with autotune, I'm not sure if I can make it sound good enough.

I'm primarily looking for advice from someone who've been in the same situation as me. I know a lot of the top producers/songwriters cant sing themselves but because they are establish, they have access to and can work directly together with people who can.

Any advice about how to present a demo is more than welcome!
Thanks!

If your main goal is to be a major label producer, and you have little to no experience with singing (which will definitely affect your songwriting) or songwriting, then I'd start collaborating with as many singer/songwriters as you can until you find a handful you click with with different voices.

If you're pitching to major label artists, you need a voice that sounds like the artist singing like the artist. To be fully prepped to quickly flip a demo, you need your black girl voice, white girl voice, black guy voice, and white guy voice ready to go. This means building relationships with the people who can fulfill each of the above.

As has been said, the "DEMO" days are done, the production needs to sound radio-ready and the vocal needs to be so on point that the artist is essentially doing a copy-and-insert of the demo vocal.

Collaborations are essential. Look at most any top20 song, they'll have multiple writers. Sometimes a ridiculous amount. That's what the competition is bringing. If you want to enter the major label world, you're up against Dr. Luke and his army of well-screened hand-picked writers and co-producers. There's no way around that, you gotta come strong. Wouldn't recommend singing yourself. You'd probably do better sending out great instrumentals that set up big songs, that songwriters or artists can write to.
Old 14th June 2013
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Ain't Nobody's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidWayne View Post
Well said. I reiterate this quote to you.
Not sure what you mean

Sent from my ADR6400L
Old 15th June 2013
  #10
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pinkheadedbug's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
There's NO reason most folks can't develop their singing voices. Not everyone will rise to the heights, but most folks can learn to carry a tune.
THIS IS COMPLETELY TRUE.

Moreover, many if not most successful singer/songwriters do not have conventionally 'pretty' voices. Character counts for an awful lot, and ability to put the song across with emotion. What a singing teacher regards as 'good tone' comes a long way back, unless you want to get hired as a session singer doing radio jingles.

You'd be amazed what an audience will let you get away with if you have a good song and the ability to move them.
Old 15th June 2013
  #11
Lives for gear
 

As has been mentioned, you want your demos to sound like a record, not a demo.

Part of being a good producer is knowing what works with what, and finding the best people to get done what you need to get done.

Don't skimp on quality by singing on your demo when you know it's not your strong point. Not only that, but even if you were a good singer, your particular voice may not be the best choice for a given song. I've seen the reality of this myself lately. I can actually sing pretty well, but my voice is not appropriate for country music at all, and I've written some country songs. I recently had a professional demo made in Nashville of one of my songs. They had some audio examples of some demo singers that they can get for you to use. I chose one, and he did an incredible job. It's amazing how much getting the right singer for the song took it to another level.

On the flip side of that, I got to hear another demo made at this same place, a duet. I think it was written by a husband and wife team, and they also decided to be the singers on it. The music was good, the husband had a decent voice, but the wife's voice was a totally inappropriate style for this music. What a shame for them to have spent that kind of money and then have their song dragged down by something like that because of ego, or maybe they thought it would be romantic, etc.

You really want the right singer!!

If money is an issue, you should be able to find local singers who would love to get some experience who would be willing to work for free. It might even get them some exposure. You might try local music classes, or ask for referrals from voice teachers, etc. Even Craigslist, or bulletin boards at your local Guitar Center or Sam Ash.
Old 15th June 2013
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug View Post
What a singing teacher regards as 'good tone' comes a long way back,
I agree, Ive been amazed at performances from world class singers that have been torn up by vocal coaches.
Old 15th June 2013
  #13
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Ain't Nobody's Avatar
 

On the other side (self-singing), I started out assuming I'd have to find another singer to produce since I wasn't up to the challenge. I started doing my own vocals just as place-fillers so I could get a professional sounding product together and find the right vocalist to swap out later.

In doing so, I took every opportunity to push myself further, to start practicing singing when I could, etc.

Overall now, when people listen to my music, by far the most common comment I get is that they like the singing.... which I find very odd. It's probably the part that took the least skill, the part that I have the least mastery over, etc... but it's what people key into again and again.

Overall, I've changed my mind and decided to release it as a solo album although I'm still sure there are plenty of better singers out there that could kick it up a few notches.

Sometimes you just don't know until you try.
Old 15th June 2013
  #14
Gear Head
 
owenreesmusic's Avatar
 

Bob Dylan can't sing for toffee, but sold millions.
Old 15th June 2013
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by owenreesmusic View Post
Bob Dylan can't sing for toffee, but sold millions.
That's the funny thing. An artist can not sing well, so long as they hook you in some significant way and can at least achieve a sonically congruent sound that effectively sets up a lesser vocal performance.

But a producer submitting demos generally needs to have the voice of the artist he's targeting. Which often requires a better singer than the artist themselves.
Old 15th June 2013
  #16
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Voice lessons are good but they are very personal. You have to find the right teacher. An easy way to try lessons is to get a voice lesson vid produced by a well respected teacher and practice in your own home. Nothing says you have to have the teacher standing in front of you. Many vids out there. Some good, some bad.

And many conflicting voice theories exist as well. One teacher's methods often contradicts another's. This is common. Meaning you need to find the right teacher.

Also, many good books on voice are available. It's good to get an understanding of the different voices you have available to you. Many people think they have only one voice when in fact they have several. And there are multiple ways to get your total voice mechanism to resonate and to vibrate.

It often helps to sing into a microphone through a high quality preamp into good euphonic headphones when practicing. If you sing in a dead room by yourself, the tone sounds dead even though it is quite lively. Part of this is that you're hearing your voice from the sides of your head that is projecting from the front of your head. If you could sit in front of yourself and listen, you would perceive your voice more correctly. Singing through a good mic and listening through phones solves this problem. And you have the added benefit that you learn how to work the microphone's proximity effect to your benefit.

And don't be afraid to try effects on your voice when practicing. John Lennon was said to require a doubling effect on his voice in order to get him to sing in his later years. The story is that in the studio he would refuse to sing if the effect was not there. Other people like hearing some reverb. Others like it completely dry.

OP, don't sell your voice short until you have fully developed it. It most likely has more potential than you think.
Old 15th June 2013
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inverted314 View Post
I agree, Ive been amazed at performances from world class singers that have been torn up by vocal coaches.
My first (secondhand) experience with vocal coaches was watching one of the best natural singers in my local scene in the 70s pretty much completely ruined by what was clearly the wrong vocal coach. The singer was from the American south, had a lovely, untutored voice, a nice, natural vibrato, a fine, folksy style.

Within a year or two, her confidence was completely gone, her pitch was all over the map -- seriously messed up --- and she had this wobbly, overly-mechanical vibrato that seemed glued onto the top of the song, out of time with the music, like a one-speed guitar vibrato.

But she kept going back to this same coach, apparently in the hope that the coach would be able to put it all back together again. Eventually, the singer dropped out of the scene. A real shame.

I am reminded of those parasitic shrinks, psychics, and life coaches who latch on to a double-E ticket client, run them into the ground, but convince the client that they, the parasite, are the only one holding the disintegrating client together, prolonging their parasitic relationship, often until there is nothing (no money that is) left.


But I have also heard sincere and convincing endorsements of 'the right' vocal coach for a given person's style. So, my mind is open. But if I was hiring a vocal coach, I would want to make sure that that coach had an approach that makes sense for my style and was actually sensitive to my artistic needs -- instead of simply trying to cram me into his/her idea of what a vocalist should sound like. (For one thing, while I don't necessarily think a vocal coach has to be a world class singer -- I would, for sure, check out that aspect right off the top.)
Old 15th June 2013
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
My first (secondhand) experience with vocal coaches was watching one of the best natural singers in my local scene in the 70s pretty much completely ruined by what was clearly the wrong vocal coach. The singer was from the American south, had a lovely, untutored voice, a nice, natural vibrato, a fine, folksy style.

Within a year or two, her confidence was completely gone, her pitch was all over the map -- seriously messed up --- and she had this wobbly, overly-mechanical vibrato that seemed glued onto the top of the song, out of time with the music, like a one-speed guitar vibrato.

But she kept going back to this same coach, apparently in the hope that the coach would be able to put it all back together again. Eventually, the singer dropped out of the scene. A real shame.

I am reminded of those parasitic shrinks, psychics, and life coaches who latch on to a double-E ticket client, run them into the ground, but convince the client that they, the parasite, are the only one holding the disintegrating client together, prolonging their parasitic relationship, often until there is nothing (no money that is) left.


But I have also heard sincere and convincing endorsements of 'the right' vocal coach for a given person's style. So, my mind is open. But if I was hiring a vocal coach, I would want to make sure that that coach had an approach that makes sense for my style and was actually sensitive to my artistic needs -- instead of simply trying to cram me into his/her idea of what a vocalist should sound like. (For one thing, while I don't necessarily think a vocal coach has to be a world class singer -- I would, for sure, check out that aspect right off the top.)
Every vocal video I have ever seen, the coaches always have perfect pitch at any octave but it always sounds so unmusical and sterile to me. History shows great vocalists always have unique voices, not sure why they try to cleanse them. You don't even really need to be a great singer as long as you can hold a decent enough pitch to get a tune out. So many hit singles like that.

That's why I practice my songwriting more then anything. It makes me envious of my other interests because I imagine I would be the quite the guitarist by now; but many great songs show you don't have to be that perfect singer or guitarist if the song shines through.
Old 15th June 2013
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Within a year or two, her confidence was completely gone, her pitch was all over the map -- seriously messed up --- and she had this wobbly, overly-mechanical vibrato that seemed glued onto the top of the song, out of time with the music, like a one-speed guitar vibrato.
That's unfortunate. And something to be avoided.

The method that resonates with me is that each singer has certain qualities that make their voice unique, and these are the qualities that should be developed. Some teachers destructively take the approach that a voice must be molded into something that it is not and never will be. One key to recognizing this problem is whether the instructor's methods uncomfortably increase your body tension or comfortably decrease it. It's best to learn how to sing effortlessly, and that means singing with minimal tension. Of course that requires slowly building strength and range in one's voice. Another way of saying this is that a good voice method allows you to sing for several hours without tiring. A bad one, perhaps for ten minutes. Anyone wishing to sing shows for several hours needs to be aware of this.
Old 15th June 2013
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
That's unfortunate. And something to be avoided.

The method that resonates with me is that each singer has certain qualities that make their voice unique, and these are the qualities that should be developed. Some teachers destructively take the approach that a voice must be molded into something that it is not and never will be. One key to recognizing this problem is whether the instructor's methods uncomfortably increase your body tension or comfortably decrease it. It's best to learn how to sing effortlessly, and that means singing with minimal tension. Of course that requires slowly building strength and range in one's voice. Another way of saying this is that a good voice method allows you to sing for several hours without tiring. A bad one, perhaps for ten minutes. Anyone wishing to sing shows for several hours needs to be aware of this.
This makes so much sense.

And it's why I took pains to emphasize the wrong coach aspect of that story.

Old 16th June 2013
  #21
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pinkheadedbug's Avatar
 

I think one thing vocal coaches in general tend to do is over-emphasize the mechanical aspects. Stuff about where your larynx should be, where the resonance should be, omigod, it can destroy your confidence. When the truth is that about 90% of singing is down to proper breathing and a few other simple fixes.

I think it's a great idea to take a few lessons, enough to get an idea of what's going on, and then woodshed and try to find the tone you're looking for with what you've been taught.

Bret Manning's SINGING SUCCESS has plenty of critics (me among them) but it did make a huge difference to my singing.

Gearslutz' own James Lugo's singing videos are also very good and I like them because holy **** do they stick to basics.

You really have to watch out for (some) vocal coaches because they will knock every ounce of character out of your voice if you don't fight them. You see this EVERY ****ING WEEK on American Idol.
Old 16th June 2013
  #22
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pinkheadedbug's Avatar
 

Also, my tip for the top -- record yourself and listen back. What you like -- do more of that -- what you don't like -- do less of that. Sounds stupid, but it really works, especially if you iterate.
Old 16th June 2013
  #23
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Ain't Nobody's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug View Post
Also, my tip for the top -- record yourself and listen back. What you like -- do more of that -- what you don't like -- do less of that. Sounds stupid, but it really works, especially if you iterate.
Yeah, if you go with your voice, it's important to learn what you have a natural tendency to do well. As I slowly made the shift from thinking I'd produce someone else to accepting my own vocals, I began to write differently, and to do so specifically to showcase what I can do well, and avoid what I can't.

I'd probably write much differently if I were writing for someone else. I don't write things in the abstract now. I sing them. If it doesn't sound right as I'm singing it, I sing something else.
Old 16th June 2013
  #24
Sing it yourself, no matter how bad it sounds; just to get melody, cadence,rhythm, dynamics and emotion.

Then HIRE a good singer with a great voice that fits the song. By hiring, you have the right to tell them how to sing it, instead of having to put up with their blah opinions. As a producer, stay in the cockpit.
Old 30th June 2013
  #25
Gear Head
 

You could always try remixing stuff, or something similar. Focus on the talents you have and be creative with them. Trying to be a jack of all trades will just make you a master of none, then how do you get picked out of the "90% [that] will probably sing better than you".
Old 3rd July 2013
  #26
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Steele's Avatar
 

Singing

In my experience the best the best singers I've worked with have had a long drinking problem and more than one divorce. Get workin'
Old 13th July 2013
  #27
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for the response guys. I've spent the last three weeks trying to get something going but it's just not possible. I sing horribly and my ideas don't translate at all when I
try to get them down, so I can never get to the point of hiring a demo si
nger,since I can't tell them what to sing without actually writing the song with them in the same room.

Vocal coaching is probably the only way to go but if there are some people who can't be helped, I'm probably one of those even though I know, unlike a lot of people, that I'm way off.

Finding someone to collaborate with would be ideal, but of course not the easiest thing in the world to find someone with the same ambitions and passion as me who would also be willing to work together.
Old 13th July 2013
  #28
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobstar View Post
Thanks for the response guys. I've spent the last three weeks trying to get something going but it's just not possible. I sing horribly and my ideas don't translate at all when I
try to get them down, so I can never get to the point of hiring a demo si
nger,since I can't tell them what to sing without actually writing the song with them in the same room.

Vocal coaching is probably the only way to go but if there are some people who can't be helped, I'm probably one of those even though I know, unlike a lot of people, that I'm way off.

Finding someone to collaborate with would be ideal, but of course not the easiest thing in the world to find someone with the same ambitions and passion as me who would also be willing to work together.
You can for sure learn to sing, it's such a daunting thing until you go in with a good vocal teacher and before you know it you're like wow I was nervous about trying to learn this?

Might feel like you can't be helped but it's like trying to do addition using subtraction, you need the right info and having someone right there who can guide you into doing the right thing it's just the biggest difference in the world, light bulbs will pop on in your head.

I was hesitant to use a vocal teacher before I used one, I don't think there was anything more worthwhile I've done in my life. 10000000% worth it.
Old 13th July 2013
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steele View Post
In my experience the best the best singers I've worked with have had a long drinking problem and more than one divorce. Get workin'
Not to mention a stormy, on-again-off-again relationship with Tammy Wynette. heh
Old 13th July 2013
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobstar View Post
Thanks for the response guys. I've spent the last three weeks trying to get something going but it's just not possible. I sing horribly and my ideas don't translate at all when I
try to get them down, so I can never get to the point of hiring a demo si
nger,since I can't tell them what to sing without actually writing the song with them in the same room.

Vocal coaching is probably the only way to go but if there are some people who can't be helped, I'm probably one of those even though I know, unlike a lot of people, that I'm way off.

Finding someone to collaborate with would be ideal, but of course not the easiest thing in the world to find someone with the same ambitions and passion as me who would also be willing to work together.
Three weeks?

Oh, yeah, then, it's hopeless.

heh


My brother, I'm not going to let you get away with that. I tried for three years. Thirty years. I'm still trying. Thing is, if you keep working, it's two steps forward and one step back. And, yeah, sometimes it's two steps back. Hell, sometimes three. But you just keep doing it, one foot in front of another.

(Have I mentioned yet today that I was told by two different music teachers as a kid that I had 'absolutely no musical talent whatsoever?' Well I was. For a while, that ate at my confidence. But if you want something bad enough, and you work at it long enough, you will be amazed what you can pull out of yourself.)

Of course, for some, it's easy. They're loaded with talent, write their first symphony at six, yadda yadda. I'm not like that. Precious few of the musicians I've worked with or known -- and some pretty good people in that cohort -- hit the ground running like that. Everyone I know had to work at it. Some of us really had to struggle and, for sure, we may never soar the highest heights -- but I can tell you that I am worlds better as a musician than I ever dreamed I'd be. (Singing, I dunno, I had this false notion out front that I could sing. Total Dunning-Kruger stuff, couldn't carry a tune and couldn't even recognize that for a while. Suffice it to say that I'm generally a much more controlled singer with more facility than I used to have.)

With work, you get better. Not overnight. And the progress will be incremental and hard to measure from day to day. That's part of being a creative. You work with what you have. You use your brain and your willpower and your ambition* to get the most out of what you have that you can.

Maybe you never become Caruso/Sinatra/T-Pain (oh, wait) but you do become a better you.


As so many of my bosses have said over the years -- back to work, you!




*Talking about musical ambition, there. Show biz ambition is a different thing and not something I have any expertise in.
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