The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
What is it about the key F# ? Plugin Bundles
Old 22nd February 2012
  #31
Lives for gear
 
teleharmonium's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by taturana View Post
7 add11 means that you don't have the 9th... for example A11 would necessarily have the 7th and the 9th also.... just as an A9 has the 7th implied. and Aadd9 has the 3rd but no 7th while the sus2 does not have neither the 3rd nor the 7th...
Are we talking pure music theory here, or practice ? We have voicing options in practice. Extensions above the seventh and lower than the highest named one can be and often are omitted.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #32
Gear interested
 
thejamspot's Avatar
 

You guys are right, technically, the high E is an 11. However, I personally simplify everything to seven notes plus the octave (unless I'm asking for strict specifics!). And I think of the minor keys the same as their parallel major key. Debate all you want, but the "minor keys have a totally different character" thing only works if you play the scale by itself. If you play a static A major scale over a chord progression in A, the scale will be a different ice cream flavor every time a chord changes. We can make music into mathematics if we want, but I like to keep it simple. I love theoretician debates, but I personally have my own easy way of looking at it, and it works for me. Believe me though, I love reading posts by people who debate music theory. It makes me feel like I'm in college again! Rock on fellas
Old 23rd February 2012
  #33
Gear interested
 
thejamspot's Avatar
 

Um, correction: RELATIVE major key. I almost got yelled at.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #34
Lives for gear
 
basmartin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by taturana View Post
7 add11 means that you don't have the 9th... for example A11 would necessarily have the 7th and the 9th also....
Almost correct, it also means that the third is still there. A11 wont have the third.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #35
Gear interested
 

Taturana is correct, and yeah this is pure music theory, they are the rules and they do imply actual voicings.
But yeah its true alot of guitarist's in particular do drop certain notes to fit on the fret board or for what ever reason.
Some times this works, but as someone eluded to earlier there's pop and there's Jazz harmony. When you starts stacking horns on top of one another or doing orchestral voicings of chords these "rules" certainly do start to make a real difference to the strength of a chord.
more and more i find describing some of the more complex chords on a chart to a band easier if i use polychords ei. E7 over FMaj triad , to describe FMaj7(#9,#11,13).
In the key of F ,the Maj 7 #9 #11 & 13 is the E7 on top of the Fmaj triad.
Helps people to decipher the fact that its not some weird mode its just two tonalitys superimposed on top of on another.
Personally my theory on this chord is that its the sixth mode of an A harmonic minor scale, i know harmonic minor scales are not used in a modal sense but it makes sense to me! but hey in a saxophone player
Old 23rd February 2012
  #36
Gear interested
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by basmartin View Post
Almost correct, it also means that the third is still there. A11 wont have the third.
No, it will have a third, once you reach the 7th ei A7 or above A7,A9,A11 or A13 this always imply that the bottom fundamental triad is Major triad.
They are all types of dominant chords, Dominant meaning the the 5th degree of a major scale, all these chords are built off a basic triad starting from the fifth degree of a major scale.
so
In the Key of Cmajor (to make it easier to think of) go up the scale to G(the 5th) and arpegiate from there to an F , this gives you the basic notes of notes which make up any dominant chord, from then on you are adding notes on top of that basic arpegio, you do not remove any notes from below (unless otherwise Stated)
Hope this helps ,tell me if its way to technical.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #37
Lives for gear
 
basmartin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noysie View Post
No, it will have a third, once you reach the 7th ei A7 or above A7,A9,A11 or A13 this always imply that the bottom fundamental triad is Major triad.
They are all types of dominant chords, Dominant meaning the the 5th degree of a major scale, all these chords are built off a basic triad starting from the fifth degree of a major scale.
so
In the Key of Cmajor (to make it easier to think of) go up the scale to G(the 5th) and arpegiate from there to an F , this gives you the basic notes of notes which make up any dominant chord, from then on you are adding notes on top of that basic arpegio, you do not remove any notes from below (unless otherwise Stated)
Hope this helps ,tell me if its way to technical.
Well, I´ve already explained how building a chord works earlier in this thread...


I´m sorry, the 3rd is indeed omitted in an 11th chord, due to the b9 dissonans between the 3rd and the 11th. A C11 means following notes: C, G, Bb, D and F. It´s also correct to call it C9sus4. If you insist using the the 3rd anyway, you have to call it C9add11...
Old 23rd February 2012
  #38
Gear interested
 

It not about the sound of the clashes of b9's its just about rules, and thats what the rules state.
sorry!
have a look at clinton roemer's classic text "the art of music copying" or sammy nestico book "the complete arranger".
Both general regarded as the authortive methods of western music theory and refernced by most professional arrangers / composers.
They both state quite cleary that the spelling of A11 necassary does imply the use of a major traid on the bottom.
Im sure this rule is echoed thoughout numerous text's on western harmony,
these are the rules, and im a firm believer of adhereing to them.
sorry if i sound like a smartarse
Old 23rd February 2012
  #39
Gear interested
 

This is funny, all you guys are like "no its this way blah blah"...then two posts later "oops I was wrong but its definitely blah blah"... blah + blah = blah. BOO! How about Songwriting in the songwriting threads.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #40
Gear interested
 

Sorry pluto,
But these rules were standardised along time ago , for thee sole purpose of continuity for the people that have to actually sight read and play this music, for the songwriters!
I can safely say the amount of times ive either been in a recording session or on stage reading charts written by singer songwriters, 99% of the time when something goes wrong, it is due to composer/songwriters etc not writing correct charts.
Now I'm happy to be paid for that time I spend in a studio trying to decipher an incorrect chart, but wouldn't it make more financial and musical sense , to have a look at some of these standardised rules. professional session muso's are high trained trades people, you may or may not be playing with people like this, but you learn what not to do very quickly when your paying 3 or 4 professional who are trained in theses rules, trying to create beautiful music from a chart that makes, no sense!
This has every thing to do with songwriting

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Gearslutz.com
Old 23rd February 2012
  #41
Gear interested
 

We are getting off the actual topic though, your right.
F# is a great key!
Sorry everyone if I took this way beyond the original topic,
I do get a bit funny about chart writing because ,I do find it amazing that everyone has music in there mind, and it's a pity not everyone is trained to express this on paper .
Still doesn't mean great music can't be made .
Think this should be a new thread I think

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Gearslutz.com
Old 23rd February 2012
  #42
Lives for gear
 
pinkheadedbug's Avatar
 

I always think of F# as the fresh, zingy key.

And F#m as the least sad of the minor keys.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #43
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug View Post
I always think of F# as the fresh, zingy key.

And F#m as the least sad of the minor keys.
and you are right
Old 23rd February 2012
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrik84 View Post
F# = RED
G = Red
F# = Magenta
and the reason D is "sad" is because it's blue. its the coldest color
Old 23rd February 2012
  #45
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug View Post
I always think of F# as the fresh, zingy key.

And F#m as the least sad of the minor keys.
"F#, G#, A, B" are the first 4 notes of the f#m scale.. these are energic colours.. magenta, scarlat, orange, lime.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #46
Lives for gear
 
NYCruiser's Avatar
[QUOTE=Blast9]unlike D minor which is of course the saddest of all keys

[QUOTE]

I always thought Am was the saddest key
Old 23rd February 2012
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

[QUOTE=NYCruiser;7598273][QUOTE=Blast9]unlike D minor which is of course the saddest of all keys

Quote:

I always thought Am was the saddest key
actually the blue represents more peace to me then sadness.. maybe not to someone else, there's much involved.
i think something like E (purple) is easier to represent sadness because it has some touch of hot color.. then, making it more emotional.

anyway thats the full list: (sorry the english)
C - green
C# - turquoise
D - Blue
D# - anil
E - purple
F - violet
F# - magenta
G - red
G# - scarlat
A - orange
A# - yellow
B - lime
Old 23rd February 2012
  #48
Lives for gear
 
glenn Taylor's Avatar
 

I like f# and F# minor. My old control room two studio's ago I had a hard time getting my bass to sound in tune in the key of F. Being on the 1st fret I think it's a bit harder to get at least a bass in tune. Maybe goes for guitars also.
Not sure how describe,but I think my control rooms resonant frequency was bit hair off from a F. Never sounded right. F# has a nice sound. GT.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #49
Moderator
 
Blast9's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
[QUOTE=rakkaus;7598586][QUOTE=NYCruiser;7598273]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast9
unlike D minor which is of course the saddest of all keys



actually the blue represents more peace to me then sadness.. maybe not to someone else, there's much involved.
i think something like E (purple) is easier to represent sadness because it has some touch of hot color.. then, making it more emotional.

anyway thats the full list: (sorry the english)
C - green
C# - turquoise
D - Blue
D# - anil
E - purple
F - violet
F# - magenta
G - red
G# - scarlat
A - orange
A# - yellow
B - lime

So is Purple Haze in E or E flat?
Old 24th February 2012
  #50
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rakkaus View Post
G = Red
F# = Magenta
and the reason D is "sad" is because it's blue. its the coldest color
It's subjective

To me F# is absolutely RED. Most vibrant, in your face note there is.
Old 24th February 2012
  #51
Lives for gear
 
basmartin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noysie View Post
It not about the sound of the clashes of b9's its just about rules, and thats what the rules state.
sorry!
have a look at clinton roemer's classic text "the art of music copying" or sammy nestico book "the complete arranger".
Both general regarded as the authortive methods of western music theory and refernced by most professional arrangers / composers.
They both state quite cleary that the spelling of A11 necassary does imply the use of a major traid on the bottom.
Im sure this rule is echoed thoughout numerous text's on western harmony,
these are the rules, and im a firm believer of adhereing to them.
sorry if i sound like a smartarse
Well, avoiding b9 intervals in voicings is also a rule(except for 7b9-chords). Drop the 11th one octave and move the 3rd up one octave gives a nice voicing, but in general, the 3rd is avoided in dominant 11th chords. The same reason the 11th is omitted in dominant 13th chords. It´s one of those cases where practice "wins" over theory. I understand that it might be a dilemma to omit the 3rd, removing the component that indicates if it´s a major or a minor chord, but since the minor 11th chord keeps it´s 3rd, I don´t see it as a problem.

Last edited by basmartin; 24th February 2012 at 03:35 AM.. Reason: added some more text
Old 25th February 2012
  #52
Gear Maniac
 

[QUOTE=Blast9;7598775][QUOTE=rakkaus;7598586]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCruiser View Post

So is Purple Haze in E or E flat?
E... ahuiehaheaie
Old 25th February 2012
  #53
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrik84 View Post
It's subjective

To me F# is absolutely RED. Most vibrant, in your face note there is.
yes.. all depends from the point of view.. this was just a mathematical transpose of light wave lengths into audio ones.
Old 25th February 2012
  #54
Lives for gear
 
Headz51230's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrik84 View Post
It's subjective

To me F# is absolutely RED. Most vibrant, in your face note there is.
I agree it really gets "on" you, very immediate
Old 28th February 2012
  #55
Gear maniac
 

Old 4th March 2012
  #56
Lives for gear
 
Kierkes's Avatar
 

That's funny. As a pianist, I love playing in F#, minor and major.

Odd that I would hate the key of A. Although D#m is a fun key for me, because you can sear through the blues scale.

The black keys have always been something I'm particularly enamored by. There are a lot of things that are impossible to do on the white keys. Of course, that's a two way street.
Old 4th March 2012
  #57
Lives for gear
 
pinkheadedbug's Avatar
 

It's funny, isn't it? At some point all the keys became much of a muchness for me on both piano and guitar, in terms of playability. I'm no technician but it was around the time that I started thinking in terms of I IV V instead of C F G. Now I couldn't care less if it's in Ab or C or whatever, whichever instrument I"m playing. My fingers just migrate to the right places without me doing too much thinking.

The interesting part of it is that since I'm happy to play a tune in any key, the choice of key becomes totally about how it sounds in that key and how I feel about singing it in that key. It's frankly ASTOUNDING how much difference a semitone or a tone makes in the feel of a tune.

I love to come up with a riff and then start moving it around tonally and see how it sound in different registers.
Old 4th March 2012
  #58
Gear interested
 

Hi,
For me F sharp has always been a special note. It has some spiritual vibe. OHM.
Mentioned Products
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
illiummusic / So much gear, so little time
7
verb / So much gear, so little time
21
AlexLakis / So much gear, so little time
6
FFTT / Geekslutz forum
43
mixerguy / Music Computers
11

Forum Jump
Forum Jump