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UNUSUAL/Unorthodox Chord Progressions. Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 27th February 2012
  #61
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bump ?
Old 27th February 2012
  #62
Maybe learn a little something about counterpoint and voice leading. That is how chords come about.
Old 27th February 2012
  #63
My advice: Get harmony lessons. The more you know, the more you can do and anyone who says differently just doesn't know stuff.

A.
Old 27th February 2012
  #64
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Maybe post examples of songs by (schooled or unschooled) artists meeting the OP request ?
Old 27th February 2012
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
Maybe post examples of songs by (schooled or unschooled) artists meeting the OP request ?
Haha, you made this a thread of your own, it seems.

Well, Eminem has some funny stuff. Not a lot of variation, but it sounds cool nonetheless. "My Name Is" is the best example, I think:


There is a Norwegian band called 22. If you're interested in unorthodox rhythmic patterns as well, this could be worth looking into.



I have never embedded YouTube videos before, so I don't think I'm doing it right. Would anyone care to explain?
Old 27th February 2012
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
I think you fail to realize that Rock and Pop (and all related subgenres) songwriting *allows* for a more anarchistic / more primal / less formal / less restrained approach than is permitted in university-level classical composition.
it all has to do with your perspective, but, what i think chip is trying to get at, is the idea that people deliberately avoid formal theoretical systems because they don't want to sound derivative. Yet, at the same time, because of their initial associations and interpretations of different types of harmonic material, which happens primarily during childhood and is thus unavoidable (unless you didn't allow a child to hear any sounds ever)*, they end up re-inventing the wheel.

your punk song that contains the parallel major chords is certainly unique in a certain way, but, if you want to get picky about it, jazz pianist tadd dameron introduced a parallel major cycle that i would say pre-dates your punk example. the song im particularly thinking about is "ladybird". i know you have a realbook, or at least the cd compilation.

of course this doesn't mean that adam ant didn't come up with those changes on their own, without prior knowledge of tadd dameron, but then again, as bob dylan would have said, that knowledge was certainly "blowin' in the wind".

its a many paths up the same mountain kind of thing. a lot of the time, it's better for people to explore theory through the medium of an instrument. other times, it's better to take a look at the structure of the theory of itself to point towards potential developments in the application of the theory. a great example of this is the coltrane matrix, which led to the development of the coltrane turnaround, which is itself based on an exploration of the aforementioned tadd dameron parallel major turnaround.

if you want a good example of this, take a look at the coltrane tune "lazybird". it's actually based off of "ladybird" by tadd dameron so it makes this an even more interesting and pertinent study.

Coltrane changes



think about the above as you would a color pinwheel chart where the colors opposite on the circle are the "compliment". of course, you will notice that the opposite on the musical circle is a tritone apart, but, with a little more study, you also will notice that these seemingly disparate chords share the same leading tones- 3rds and 7ths. this is where **** starts getting interesting.

enjoy

*some psychoacoustic research that i've read suggests that if a child isn't exposed to music during critical formative years (ages birth through 5-6 years old), they will have poor musical comprehension skills as an adult, in a way very similar to the acquisition of language (it either happens during the childhood formative years- or not at all).

here is one of my favorite "unusual" chord change songs, "Sapphire Sky Blue" by Dave Douglas:

Spotibot.com - Dave Douglas - Sapphire Sky Blue (04:55) - Spotify Resource

this song completely blew me away when i first heard it and still continues to do so. sorry, not available on youtube (damn shame in my opinion).

Last edited by kbbk; 27th February 2012 at 11:01 PM.. Reason: bad spelling
Old 28th February 2012
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbbk View Post
it all has to do with your perspective, but, what i think chip is trying to get at, is the idea that people deliberately avoid formal theoretical systems because they don't want to sound derivative. Yet, at the same time, because of their initial associations and interpretations of different types of harmonic material, which happens primarily during childhood and is thus unavoidable (unless you didn't allow a child to hear any sounds ever)*, they end up re-inventing the wheel.)
I really don't think there is any set approach or method to being harmonically free or harmonically innovative in songwriting. For some individuals, being consciously aware of theory inhibits them, for others, it inspires them. I do know that Lennon & McCartney were very uninhibited by their lack of formal, theoretical schooling, and their stuff varied from entirely derivative to groundbreaking (in the context of the highly popular, mainstream songwriters), based on how accessible or how rebellious they wanted to appear.

Let's say there are 5 levels of formally refined theoretical awareness. I'm all for each individual choosing to operate at any of the 5 levels, and then going about their business.

I was a 5/5, and am now a 4/5. I'm trying to forget the burden. I've performed Giant Steps, Ladybird, Lazybird, Ornithology and all the rest live dozens of times and am going back to Quebec to do it all again this spring. (yippee !). I'm simply a much better jazz musician than songwriter.

But you know what ? I'd gladly push the 'clean slate' button for the summer when I return, so that I can be entirely free of the theoretical/pedagogical burden, and simply write songs in as anarchistic and liberated a harmonic fashion as this. And no, he certainly wasn't reinventing the wheel. He did that later when he went solo, and wanted to conform (teaming up with Phil Collins, Motown, etc.). This is the 0/5 in action. The 0/5 which I aim to be.

Adam And The Ants - Day I Met God - YouTube


Adam And The Ants - The Idea - YouTube


Adam and The Ants - Nine Plan Failed - YouTube


ADAM AND THE ANTS - "Kick!" (1979) - YouTube


Adam and the Ants - "Ligotage" (1978) - YouTube



Adam And The Ants - Don't Be Square Be There - YouTube



Adam and the Antz - 'Friends' from Antmusic EP. - YouTube



Adam And The Ants - Animals And Men - YouTube



Adam And The Ants - Cartrouble Parts 1 And 2 - YouTube



Adam And The Ants - Catholic Day - YouTube



Adam And The Ants - Digital Tenderness - YouTube
Old 28th February 2012
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
I really don't think there is any set approach or method to being harmonically free or harmonically innovative in songwriting
yes, definitely not. music theory is a purely mental construct invented by humans. we made and make it up and choose to accept or not accept its conclusions and falsehoods. it is bound by nothing but what we deem acceptable or unacceptable, an even those value judgments have their compositional uses, such as in aleatoric music or free jazz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
Let's say there are 5 levels of formally refined theoretical awareness. I'm all for each individual choosing to operate at any of the 5 levels, and then going about their business.
i disagree with this metaphor because it presupposes a two ended spectrum ranging from egghead to atavistic. to suggest that such a spectrum exists borders on solipsism, ie it could only be true for you.

to me, honestly, it sounds like you experienced some serious technical exhaustion of your instrument and now have trouble doing anything except reciting patterns that exist in your muscle memory. might i suggest switching to a new instrument where you won't be inhibited by your own training?

my own struggle with this has led me to different creative strategies, one of which is where i do nothing except try and imagine musical material in my head, only coming back to record it (written or audio) later on when it is a fully independent idea. i have had great successes with this.

i don't know of a clean slate button, but i do recommend doing lsd or mushrooms every so often to break you out of routine mental patterns. your heroes, the beatles, surely knew a few things about that approach

just want to point out they weren't totally uninhibited. they clearly borrowed heavily from bach and other classical music. if you mean to say that they didn't know "formal" musical training, consider that the paper that the theory is printed on is akin to the finger pointing at the moon- it ain't the moon itself- it's the sound, man.

also, i appreciate the video suggestions but there is no way in hell i can watch all these vids. sorry dude. recommend me two and i'll give you some dap.
Old 28th February 2012
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
Maybe learn a little something about counterpoint and voice leading. That is how chords come about.
this^^^ x100k

may i humbly suggest adagio for strings by samuel barber?
Old 28th February 2012
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbbk View Post

i disagree with this metaphor because it presupposes a two ended spectrum ranging from egghead to atavistic. to suggest that such a spectrum exists borders on solipsism, ie it could only be true for you.

to me, honestly, it sounds like you experienced some serious technical exhaustion of your instrument and now have trouble doing anything except reciting patterns that exist in your muscle memory. might i suggest switching to a new instrument where you won't be inhibited by your own training?

my own struggle with this has led me to different creative strategies, one of which is where i do nothing except try and imagine musical material in my head, only coming back to record it (written or audio) later on when it is a fully independent idea. i have had great successes with this.

i don't know of a clean slate button, but i do recommend doing lsd or mushrooms every so often to break you out of routine mental patterns. your heroes, the beatles, surely knew a few things about that approach

just want to point out they weren't totally uninhibited. they clearly borrowed heavily from bach and other classical music. if you mean to say that they didn't know "formal" musical training, consider that the paper that the theory is printed on is akin to the finger pointing at the moon- it ain't the moon itself- it's the sound, man.

also, i appreciate the video suggestions but there is no way in hell i can watch all these vids. sorry dude. recommend me two and i'll give you some dap.
1) Anyone could enter a music theory exam, and be graded from 0-100% by the instructor. So there is definitely such a scale.

2) I've had no technical exhaustion, just the opposite actually. My bandmates are bothered that I never practice and rarely have to rehearse.

3) The clean slate button is a metaphor, but in reality, one could only gradually ween oneself off of theory.

4) Cultural osmosis ('it's all been done', 'there's nothing new under the sun', 'it's blowing in the wind') vs. originality. The latter is very rare and it's the sign of true genius. But it also exists in *degrees* and *variants*.

5) The videos are more for the lurkers.
Old 28th February 2012
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
1) Anyone could enter a music theory exam, and be graded from 0-100% by the instructor. So there is definitely such a scale.
sure, but only within the confines of that specific academic institution, and even then, YOU would have to personally accept it's judgments as valid for it to matter to you and your ontological world one bit. i have a niggling feeling that the music theory exam for julliard is a bit different than the one for fullsail university, though

i do hope you aren't needlessly railing against prevailing academic institutions and the "museumification" of music, though. that would be a supreme waste of your time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
3) The clean slate button is a metaphor, but in reality, one could only gradually ween oneself off of theory.
not so sure about that...modern cognitive science seems to suggest that we never truly forget anything, it just slowly fades into the background against information that is more commonly recalled by our brains.

im glad to hear your return to nature is working for you. there are few people that get high enough on the mountain of music theory to realize that it can become as much an impediment as it can be empowering, but seeing as most of the people posting in this area are lacking in formal training, i definitely recommend that they learn it, if only so they can later forget it and worry about the human expression part instead
Old 28th February 2012
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbbk View Post
i definitely recommend that they learn it, if only so they can later forget it
Lol, that has likely been said millions of times over the last 50 years. It's now a somewhat ironic cliche from the erudite.

But for songwriters who aim to be progressive and very unique, I'd only strongly recommend it (formal study of theory, counterpoint and harmony) for those who are stagnant and/or for those who aren't instinctively highly imaginative and creatively adventurous.

I say, if it's broken, you're stuck, and the well is dry, then embrace a different approach to remedy the stagnation.

Many simply disagree with the sweeping, universal, across the board recommendation. Different approaches for different folks. And the more one is removed from instrumental jazz and orchestral/classical circles, this relativity and individuality WRT approach is even more applicable.
Old 28th February 2012
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
Lol, that has likely been said millions of times over the last 50 years. It's now a somewhat ironic cliche from the erudite.

But for songwriters who aim to be progressive and very unique, I'd only strongly recommend it (formal study of theory, counterpoint and harmony) for those who are stagnant and/or for those who aren't instinctively highly imaginative and creatively adventurous.

I say, if it's broken, you're stuck, and the well is dry, then embrace a different approach to remedy the stagnation.

Many simply disagree with the sweeping, universal, across the board recommendation. Different approaches for different folks. And the more one is removed from instrumental jazz and orchestral/classical circles, this relativity and individuality WRT approach is even more applicable.
yea for sure. i grew up in heavily "institutionalized" settings (classical/jazz training). i understand what you are talking about. as a result, i have a skewed perception of what is musically "valuable" in a way, just like the difference between growin up in the big city and growing up in rural bumsf-ville. each day i spend out of that realm is a great adventure into "non-institutional" music. the industry models, whatever and however they may be are just another institution in a sense too though. who knows where the barycenter of the universe is?

i still think that having command of the knowledge is important though. theory is, yes, just one method of knowing, but it's also pretty fundamental. i feel a lot safer knowing that, if there is a nuclear war, i know how to make non-electronic instruments make pretty noises and can work in a very common framework of the giants that have preceded myself. funny that i still don't know how to shoot a gun though.

bottom line, if people are honest they know what is lacking in their game- usually that which they most actively seek to avoid doing. its something different for everybody but its there. if people are here though, they should be encouraged to get as deep or not deep as they want. the free market of public opinion will surely prevail

i hate hearing anti-intellectual bias though- as if a deep understanding of subtleties is a bad thing. might not be your thing, but its somebodys thing and thus must exist somewhere, and its explanation tolerated. its nuts how much stuff you can do with one four note chord. on the other hand, mahler is a ****ing genius on the same level as james brown. i am awestruck by both

Last edited by kbbk; 28th February 2012 at 04:06 AM.. Reason: generally poor grammar
Old 28th February 2012
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
Naaahhhh, if you want to get blown awaay, with unusual chords listen to Arnold Schoenberg, a guy who wrote one of the best harmony books, up to a point that he surpased harmony.
Listen to Alfred Schnittke or even John Cage.
^^^^This!

Add Messiaen and Boulez to that bunch.
Old 28th February 2012
  #75
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A quick and dirty tactic is to throw in one chromatic (ie weird) chord into a 4 or 8 bar progression, and then use that to drive the song. A minor third change always seems to work (see Coltrane changes above). For example, REM's So. Central Rain has a verse progression like this

C Em Gm F
C Cm Bb C

The key is, on the face of it, C. The first wild (non-diatonic) chord is the Gm. The minor third Em-Gm change is beautiful, and the Gm is borrowed from the parallel minor (Cm). So now the key center is ambigous -- is it C or Cm? The second part of the verse continues playing with this -- flipping between the major (the two C chords) and the parallel minor ( the Cm and Bb chords).

The rest of the chords are stricty diatonic (C, Dm, Am) but the ambiguity has been set up so they all ring quite differently than they would in an entirely diatonic song.

I love the sound of iii-v-IV (or its close relative iii-bVII-IV).
Old 28th February 2012
  #76
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phb, it's neat that you were thinking of I - v (C - Gm), as I was thinking of Strawberry Fields Forever, which if looked at in the key of Bb, after the...

Intro : | F - Am/E | F7/Eb - Eb - Ebdim | Gm - F | Eb - Bb |

...it proceeds into the...

Chorus : | Bb | Bb | Fm7 | Fm7 | G7 | G7 |

...which is peculiar pop music songwriting because of the vm7 and VI7 (which has the melody touching the b9 and #9 extensions).

This made me realize how truly progressive, unique and interesting it would be if a song came out with an upbeat, and *constant* I - v - I - v (example : |E | Bm | E | Bm | at 126 bpm) chord pattern going on, supporting an 8th note mixolydian melody or instrumental riff : |:| E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D,E,F#,E,D,C#,B,A,G#,F# |:|

It then made me wonder (while emphasizing the 1st, 5th and 9th scale degrees) if it would actually be modal 'borrowing' at all, or would the song then be firmly based in E Mixolydian.

Nevertheless, I dig the I - v - I thing as it transcends one of the most crutchy and habitual things ever, that Ionian leading note. The resolution (of Bm - E) just seems more spacious, less final and less stable to me than an authentic cadence of B7 - E.

Which leads me into 'The Planets' by Gustav Holst and the Jupiter Suite (which Adam And The Ants used to have open their gigs, blasted over the PA system !) :

HOLST - Jupiter from "The Planets Suite" - YouTube


At 1:40, the chords could be basically thought of as ... I - bVII - I - v :

|:| G | F | G | Dm |:|

Which for me, personally, could just go on forever and ever, as the 'Mixolydian Feel' seems much more open and expansive... kinda like outer space.... and it's just a part of the musical universe which pop songwriters don't tap into enough IMO. It's as if the outer limits are off limits or something. heh
Old 28th February 2012
  #77
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I present to you, the fantastic, frenetic Frevo of Egberto Gismonti.


Egberto Gismonti - Frevo (Piano solo) - YouTube


frevo (Egberto Gismonti) - YouTube


Egberto Gismonti - Frevo [Piano - Newton Zago] - YouTube


Egberto Gismonti - Frevo (Piano Transcription) - YouTube


Frevo(Egberto Gismonti) by Ken'ichiro Shinzawa 4 091022@inF TOKYO - YouTube



It's a magical & captivating composition, but almost no one, not even the master himself, consistently plays it at the ideal tempo (108 bbm). It's also supposed to be treated more delicately, so as to not let the regular staccato passages obliterate the periodic legato ones. It's really a piece of spiritual adrenaline, which must be matched with equivalent discipline, restraint and poise.
Old 29th February 2012
  #78
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Using tone pedals is another way of creating unusual chords. A simple example would be playing a Bflat major triad over C on the bass.

Something weird happens when you throw things like 6ths and min/maj chords over a bassline derived from an antecedent line in the melody, or somewhere else in the arrangement.
Old 2nd March 2012
  #79
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it's always fun to experiment with open tunings on guitar

it's also nice to make your own scales and stick to them. they don't have to have 7 notes.

try to do everything with minor chords

try to do everything with major chords

learn polychords

unusual things need time to get used to. hit some random chords and after listening for 3 days you will like them.
(this also works with a lot of different things in life)
Old 3rd March 2012
  #80
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The original wizardry of Dizzy Gillespie.

A Night In Tunisia - YouTube



|:| Eb7 | Dm7 |:|Em7b5 - A7b5| Dm7 |


Am7b5 | D7b9 | Gm |Gm7 - C7| Gm7b5 | C7b9 | F6 |Em7b5 - A7b5|


Em7b5 | ..... |Eb7#11| ..... |Dm | ... | G7#11 | ...... |
Gmin(maj7)| Gmin7 | Gb7#9 | ...... |Fmaj7 | ..... | Em7b5 | A7b9 |
Old 6th March 2012
  #81
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To actually respond to the OP:

For the particular examples you listed, I think these producers have a very limited understanding of music theory (with the exception of Zero 7--they have or use some real musicians and some pretty conventional chord structures). But the other folks (Mohawk and NERD) just play notes and chords by trial and error, and if something sounds good, they keep it.

If you want to emulate what they're doing, just pick 3 random notes for a chord, then pick 3 random notes for the next chord, etc. just work through it slowly until you get something you like.

Theoretically speaking, something sounds "unconventional" if it avoids normal chord tones (1-3-5). So you might instead use just the 2,4,6,7. Or you might use flattened/sharped versions of these. You would also want to avoid having the chords move according to typical diatonic functionality (I,ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii-dim).

Basically, today's crop of musicians/producers have to deliberately avoid things that sound "conventional" harmonically in order to distinguish themselves from past music and sound "new" so that critics at places like Pitchfork will think they're hip.
Old 6th March 2012
  #82
Gear interested
 

One trick that's has given me limitless ammo for my harmonic arsenal is to write a random, nonsensical bass line and make it consonant by harmonizing two(triad) or three(6 or 7 chords) notes to each bass note. I'll go a step further and try to write a progression of 12 chords using a passage from a 12 tone matrix from Berg or Webern (whereas no notes can repeat until all 12 tones are sounded) and use that as a wacky bass line - then harmonize into consonance.

Excellent suggestions already mentioned: Open guitar tunings, VOICE LEADING & COUNTERPOINT!
Old 7th March 2012
  #83
Gear Head
 

Lets see!

Zeppelin is usually pretty good about using weird tunings and progressions.

An obvious example of an uberpopular unorthodox progression:



Who would argue that chromatic descent isn't hauntingly beautiful?




Les Claypool & Co. always bring unorthodox chords to the table.

A popular (mainstream?) example:


More obscure:



As do Air:




It seems like making a melody with an exotic scale is an easy way to maneuver through interesting chords.

Radiohead - Just, as already mentioned...the beginning riff is played in the octatonic scale:


Norwegian Wood uses the Mixolydian scale:


More Mixolydian...listen to the bass running up the scale at "oh no, not me"


...A bit off topic, but if anyone knows the acoustic pickup Mr. Cobain is using there I'd be curious to know. I usually hate acoustic pickups, but that one sounds glorious.
Old 18th September 2012
  #84
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If you have a listen to some prog rock you'll find plenty of obscure and unusual chords/chord progressions.

Just have a listen to some rush/yes/elp for some great unusual chord progressions. Newer bands such as dream theatre and spocks beard are other prog bands that make amazing use of unusual chords.

As others have said, having a basic knowledge/understanding of the various scales will help, but if you start having a listen and play along with any of the songs that have been mentioned previously, you'll start to gain a better idea of how different musicians accomplish making a dissonant chord incredibly musical.

Experience will always be your biggest help with regards to this.

Have a play around on a piano (or guitar, except some of the finger positions make it harder to play around with) and sharpen/flatten single notes by a half or full step within a chord. You'll be amazed at what you can accomplish...
Old 22nd September 2012
  #85
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[QUOTE=Sir Sweeps Alot;7640369]One trick that's has given me limitless ammo for my harmonic arsenal is to write a random, nonsensical bass line and make it consonant by harmonizing two(triad) or three(6 or 7 chords) notes to each bass note. I'll go a step further and try to write a progression of 12 chords using a passage from a 12 tone matrix from Berg or Webern (whereas no notes can repeat until all 12 tones are sounded) and use that as a wacky bass line - then harmonize into consonance.

What? Example please.
Old 22nd September 2012
  #86
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Marvin Gaye- It's Madness

Old 22nd September 2012
  #87
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here it is in mp3,
I can't seem to get a youtube video in a post.
Only the link to it.
Anybody who wants to clear that out for me?

Anyway; here is a classic for those who don't know it yet;
Attached Files

Marvin Gaye-It's Madness.mp3 (2.31 MB, 267 views)

Old 23rd September 2012
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apartment dog View Post
here it is in mp3,
I can't seem to get a youtube video in a post.
Only the link to it.
Anybody who wants to clear that out for me?

Anyway; here is a classic for those who don't know it yet;
I listened to this album a lot especially when travelling. I havent listened in while, so thanks for the post.
A truly gifted artist
Old 26th September 2012
  #89
Lives for gear
Personally, and even as a classically trained pianist who has played a few Prokofiev and Schoenberg pieces (but by no means an expert on that stuff), I have to draw a huge distinction between the "rock/pop" and "afro-centric" (or whatever you would call gospel/blues/jazz etc) use of non-diatonic chords and the neo-classical stuff.

On the one hand you have music my wife would listen to, enjoy and quite possibly buy, on the other... that's the kind of thing that even furthers the depths of her disdain for gearslutz when she see's the purple background on the edges. Just sayin if there is a way to make it cool, to where chicks dig it, the cats in the monkey suits def have it all wrong.
Old 22nd June 2014
  #90
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i think the more you listen to songs by other people and the more you start to pick up and notice the changes they're doing, the more you start to hear certain progressions that are used constantly and become incredibly boring. and then on the flip side you'll hear those occasional songs that are doing something really interesting, and you can use it as inspiration. you can work off of the progressions you hear other songs using and maybe try changing it up yourself just a little bit. that's how it works for me. i've had a long lasting battle between changing up my progressions for the sake of being different and just letting it go and using the same progressions everyone else does. but just keep experimenting and absorb as much as you can. cause in the end, as Lennon once said, creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
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