Fair enough.
Thanks for this note. I do appreciate your response and commentary. We approach things very differently, no doubt. One thing is certain though: you think way more deeply than me. I think I ask easy stuff lol!!

Carry on....and be well!

I'm older, I strongly suspect. The longer you live, the more your head fills up with bits and pieces, facts, ideas, ways of looking at complex topics that are not reductive or over-simplifying -- and that growing gray area tends to make the 'bold,' black-and-white, either-or stuff just that much less credible and compelling.


Also, there's the whole communication style thing. A lot of folks are used to snapping off one-liners, ready for meme-ification. (And I certainly CAN do that. I worked in marketing for some time, I know a bit about persuasion, both hidden and otherwise.) Me... being old and all ... I tend to be a lot more reserved -- and, to be sure, even cautious.

Because I HAVE got caught out in making bold, memorable statements that turned out to be full-of-it... and, though I now always try to correct myself (and even apologize when necessary), I'm human, I'm arrogant and prideful, at least to some extent, like most folks. I don't like being wrong. And I really don't like it when I've made a point of being wrong in front of a lot of people. And that shapes you going forward, I think. So that induces a little more caution, a feel for the importance of a broad perspective.


There's an observation from the animal behavior world about dogs and cats that's become something of a conversational trope: Dogs -- as a species -- tend to raise their ears when they are alarmed or angered. Cats, on the other hand, tend to lay their own ears DOWN when they are threatened or preparing to fight or attack. (The reason more households are not torn apart by continual warfare is that both species tend to 'override' their innate interpretation over time when their different-species housemate proves friendly -- despite the 'signals' mistakenly derived from ear position.)

I think people can get into similar misunderstandings at time, primarily derived from modes and customs of expression that may not match up well.

Anyhow, glad we were able to get through this (slightly strained) attempt at conversation with no lingering animosities! I'm sure the next time we interact, we'll probably understand each other at least a little more.

Have a good week!

Thanks for that.
For the record, I'm not a spring chicken lol.
Also, I can discern more from language than your average bear, so that's a commonality we share.

Enjoy the week as well.

Ah... I was fooled by the youthful spring in your step!

By NO means have I thought along the way that you weren't a complex, inquisitive soul... part of why it was occasionally frustrating to have so much difficulty communicating at times.

So... I guess it must come down to the cat/dog ears thing....

Have you figured out how to undo this? Blind black and white confidence seems to overwhelmingly be the more effective way to do well in the creative world, people seem to be drawn to those who stand for something with extreme prejudice. I thought an open and grey area mind would be helpful but nope

As a creative, I fully commit to what I'm writing -- when I'm writing it. It's the only way I know how to do it. Without some emotion or passion driving me, my art is as flat as an empty balloon. (Editing is a different process, of course, and there I try to bring in the open-eyed self-analysis and broader perspective that dcrmusic was urging earlier in the thread. I try to find ways for my initial attempts to better express their initial emotional impulse while appealing beyond my audience of one.)


With regard to my intellectual life, however, I would find moving away from my current broadly aware, open-eyed approach to life and knowledge like trying to wrap myself in swaddling. I was young and full of myself once. And once was enough. I'd rather take the broad, long view.

@ theblue1 @ newguy1 @ drcmusic : I’m enjoying your discussion.

After trying (and failing) to respond to all the specific quotes that caught my eye, here’s a general response:

I think songwriter forums draw two different species of songwriter: Let’s call them “Happy Community” people and “Trying To Get Somewhere” people.

Happy Community people: I think if someone writes songs purely for self-expression, and enjoys community with other kindred souls, with no professional ambitions, then fine. In that situation, the more the writers are bound together by *something*—genre of their work being the easy way to do it—the better that community will probably be. And it’s not surprising that the unwritten rule might be, “Don’t slam anyone else’s work, even if you think it’s awful.” Because the hang is the thing, coming together around a shared passion.

Trying To Get somewhere people: OTOH, if someone is trying (realistically or not—who knows?) to draw an audience, to perform, to get attention or sell a few recordings—then everything about the “happy hobbyist community” model is almost useless. The ambitious songwriter needs critique from someone whose opinion means something—either gatekeepers who can advance the artist’s professional agenda, or songwriters whose work seems similar, but who have already crossed the line into being wanted. Because if a gatekeeper, or a pro you relate to, tells you your work needs to get a lot better, and how—that information is powerful; you may hate the negative feedback but it’s a reality check.

And as subjective as art is, there usually is a Truth where someone in a similar genre, at a higher altitude, says, “I think you’re ready,” or “I see what you’re trying to do, but you’re nowhere near ready until you’ve fixed A, B, and C” ... or even, “I don’t know how your kind of music even fits into any genres I know, so I don’t know what to tell you.”

Songwriting forums are usually lame, I think, because the two groups don’t need the same forum. One could argue the ambitious people really aren’t served by a forum at all, unless it provides practical tips —what they need is to keep getting out into the harsh world of gigs, contests, publishers, and so on, and bang around until they figure out where they stand. At least that’s how it seems to me.

Sorry for the length of all this ... hope you guys find something in here relevant to the conversation.

As you were ...

There is very much a critical mass to forums. If you want to push yourself artistically and skill-wise you are much better off having a small group of 5-20 eager souls pushing each other in healthy competition and teamwork. Or as other people have mentioned: Going out and playing gigs.

Most forums/reddits/fbgroups/etc aren't that though. I think they start off in that community spirit and quickly devolve into self-promotion and these weird debates about semantics that advocate elitism, and kills the nurturing of friendship. Case in point: no one here gives a **** about me. I'm just an avatar and some texts on a screen. But if we were sitting around a table with a few beers, discussing Bob Dylan, that might change very quickly. We might end up by the morning having made a song, or started a new band. Or perhaps influenced eachother's art in some profound way.

But I be surprised if you could find that online. Art needs trust, and to trust someone you need to know them.

before and after you discover the subreddit for a hobby

Well.....If you check my post history I HAVE DONE "ACTUAL" TEACHING on this forum.

I've led more than one guy though actually writing lyrics when they said they couldn't do it.

I told them B%$ S&^%T YOU CAN DO IT, start here...

Soooo......What do you want? Someone to write songs FOR YOU?

Maybe stop B^%$ing about songwriting forums and go write some SONGS.

But that would mean you confronting your insecurities....and who has the balls to do that?

Give em' a tug and man up big boi.

Songwriting happens when you DO IT...not when you fiddle f^%K around on the internet to avoid doing it.

I used to think it meant having ideas. But people are clearly able to write and sell songs without that. I'd love to know how, and I don't think they teach that in songwriting forums.

This is songwriting, not deadlifting. wtf alpha **** are you on?

This is a great example of what I'm talking about. I put some time and thought into writing a comment that I hope will add some nuance to the conversation. the reply (from some anonymous voice that I know absolutely nothing about) is that I should stop tugging my nuts.

So what's the result? Well the result is that I just stop using this forum and leave it to the thousands of "hey check out my mixtape" spam posts.

Do you even write bro?

Its definitely an insight that's stuck with me since high school, that gets deeper the more you ponder it.

It'd be a three circle Venn, the world of the work is its own complete circle. And the artist and consumer worlds don't necessarily even overlap.

With a little effort, one can oversimplify anything into a dyadic pair...

But, having participated in a number of both prose and songwriting peer critique groups, I can assure you that human based aggregations in the real world don't fall into such tidy little packages.

That is not to say that there is not some practical truth in what you suggest, but the real world groupings that I have been part of in both prose and songwriting have been quite diverse, with participants ranging from absolute beginners to published novel and book authors in prose groups and a similar range in songwriting from tyros to people with multiple commercial releases as well as commercial licensing deals behind them -- and in my experience, both cohorts are capable of giving valuable insights and critique.

To be honest, I cannot help but wonder just how many of the people who've written at such length about the problems they perceive with such groups have ever actually participated in any themselves... there seem to be some profound misapprehensions.

Everyone gets a participation trophy or haven't you heard?

I’ve never been interested in any type of songwriting groups, mainly because I have always seen them as “group therapy” in a musical disguise.

But, at the same time, I recognize and know that as an intp personality type, aka, introverted computer guy, that type of thing would never fly for me anyway, but might be the best thing for creative extroverts.

However, I’m at this point now where I want to sharpen my ears, so I’m very interested in listening to music that is very close to being complete, and finding aspects that could use renewed focus.

The only thing that qualifies me in any way is that I am not biased against any style of music, and as long as I can grab some references for comparison, I can really dig in and make some useful comparisons.

So, I’m making the “finished demos” section of this Songwriting forum my hangout for that, as I’m interested in developing into a Mixing Producer eventually.

I think the problem with “Songwriting forums” is that realistically, you shouldn’t be looking for help from other songwriters, as it seems to reduce down to competitive creativity, but instead should be developing a relationship with a producer, or someone aspiring to be one, who can honestly and constructively gauge your current production in comparison to the marketplace of attention, because even if we take money out of the equation, we are still competing for the attention of the listener.

Thanks for commenting.
The only group less qualified than musicians to comment on music is the proverbial producer. Is there a more overused and self ordained word in music today?

Everyone seems to be a producer. There are no prerequisites other than a pulse, a device, possibly a DAW and electricity. If you add a soundcloud account your a GD genius.

lol

Unfortunately, the exact same thing can be said of the proverbial “musician”.

That said, a producer, or aspiring one, would be focused on creating a final product in a way that a songwriting musician is likely not. That person as an external reference not competing directly in songwriting will bring something to the musician.

I find hostility to the concept funny though because I don’t know of many noted musical artists who didn’t have a great producer, just like I don’t know of many noted novelists who didn’t have a great editor.

I think 'a Pulse' is no longer mandatory....I felt far more comfortable when a 'producer' wore a white lab coat over a shirt and tie, preferably smoking a pipe whilst tapping their foot to the 'with it' beat.

I'm sorry... Just WTF is that supposed to mean?

Nothing hostile here - just a little levity. And you are, of course, correct about musicians from your opening sentence.

I would note you don't need to define a producer for me unless this is your first assignment as a newly ordained producer: educate (condescend to) ignorant people by telling them all about your hard-fought amazing producer talents.

Warning: I may possibly remain unimpressed and undeterred in my opinion even though you clearly have extremely deep and developed producerly thoughts. This may be due to the ghastly disease of cynicism (certainly not to be confused with life experience and knowledge).

Now Mr. Producer, fire up Fruity Loops and make a dope a$$ beat already. Onward!

Wow, the self-loathing in this thread is palpable. Smells like cheap hats from China, unfulfilling career choices and tears of those "left behind."

If you so declare....

I just think folks should sometimes stop taking themselves so seriously. Constant sermonizing and offense-takers. Very flaccid....

I have to say I love your handle, and the fact that you make millinery references in your posts...it's random and I love it!

I initially thought you had created your profile specifically to (very justifiably) wind up a particular 'a-hole' on the 'demos' threads.

BTW 'Cheap Hats From China' is a great name for a band.

Are you addressing this directly to me?

If so, I think the group therapy masquerading as songwriter’s club might just be the best thing for you.

Maybe post some of your work in the finished demos forum so we can help heal you.

That’s all for the sake of levity, of course.

The cringey hatred of modern music and production is noted.

Aha, yes.
Inventing things I did not say.
How creative!
You are a producer!!! Wow!

Lol
Calm down tough guy.

I learn more about internet etiquette then music in just about every GS forum I read.

Aw, c’mon, post your finest work in the “finished demos“ forum. I want to hear your musical voice to understand where you’re coming from.

I promise to be just as kind and courteous as I am to everyone else.

C’mon, you can do this! Be fearless!

You know I posted there, as you commented on it.

*The most important thing in being a good producer is being an enthusiastic coach, or even a “hype man” when necessary. But it is important to read the room, and know when it simply isn’t the right time. This is my first lesson to you as you are clearly also an aspiring… well I’m not sure what, but let me know.

He's not wrong to note that complimentary roles can offer better or at least a different sort of feedback than competitive roles.

These producer grievances are pretty moot and OT, other than offering reasoning to "seek out the right producer."