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Why don't we switch to 432Hz tuning? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 27th April 2018
  #211
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ok...

I figured out a way to use a different tuning pitch, and have it be able to coexist in the 440 world by a simple half step transposition.

50 cents from 440:

427.4740541075859

452.8929841231372

Thus if you tune the 'A' to either of those frequencies, it will be a semitone apart from 440.

Seems a good way to explore different tonal properties of acoustic instruments, and still be able to exist with other instruments in common tuning, without clashing intonation wise.
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Old 27th April 2018
  #212
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
ok...

I figured out a way to use a different tuning pitch, and have it be able to coexist in the 440 world by a simple half step transposition.

50 cents from 440:

427.4740541075859

452.8929841231372

Thus if you tune the 'A' to either of those frequencies, it will be a semitone apart from 440.

Seems a good way to explore different tonal properties of acoustic instruments, and still be able to exist with other instruments in common tuning, without clashing intonation wise.
And... for guitarists, there is the capo!


[EDIT: As norfolk martin points out below, the normally erudite 12tone meant 100 cents, not 50. That's what I get for not finishing my coffee first before soshmediaizing.]

Last edited by theblue1; 27th April 2018 at 04:59 PM..
Old 27th April 2018
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
ok...

I figured out a way to use a different tuning pitch, and have it be able to coexist in the 440 world by a simple half step transposition.

50 cents from 440:

427.4740541075859

452.8929841231372

Thus if you tune the 'A' to either of those frequencies, it will be a semitone apart from 440.

Seems a good way to explore different tonal properties of acoustic instruments, and still be able to exist with other instruments in common tuning, without clashing intonation wise.
This works very well as described for investigating timbre, but I don't think it will allow you to exist in conjunction with 440 instruments. Moving 50c does not take you a semitone form the root, but a 1/4 tone . A semitone apart from A440 is
415 and 466, not 427 and 453. You will be tuned "in the cracks" between G#-A or A-A#.

I'm also not sure that the different tonal properties of instruments tuned at different pitches was the basis for the "432 movement."

My understanding of the argument is that 432 and it's associated series is some multiple of a natural brainwave frequency or some fundamental universal constant, and hence it inherently connects with the listener better than 440. If that's the case, I'm not sure 427 is any better than 440
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Old 27th April 2018
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
This works very well as described for investigating timbre, but I don't think it will allow you to exist in conjunction with 440 instruments. Moving 50c does not take you a semitone form the root, but a 1/4 tone . A semitone apart from A440 is
415 and 466, not 427 and 453. You will be tuned "in the cracks" between G#-A or A-A#.

I'm also not sure that the different tonal properties of instruments tuned at different pitches was the basis for the "432 movement."

My understanding of the argument is that 432 and it's associated series is some multiple of a natural brainwave frequency or some fundamental universal constant, and hence it inherently connects with the listener better than 440. If that's the case, I'm not sure 427 is any better than 440
Indeed, moved by a quarter tone! Good catch, my bad.

I'm very parsimonious with my cents it seems.
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Old 27th April 2018
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
So:

we're going to put exotic replacement motors in all Hammond organs, re-tune 50-100 million pianos, change the length and hence the pressure behavior and response of all brass and reed instruments, and probably require truss rod adjustment on a million or so guitars, so some folks in California can feel groovy?
Come on, it's a small price for eternal world peace.
What's with you people, don't want a better world?
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Old 6th May 2018
  #216
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I didn't know about this before, but apparently there's a competing "magic frequency" being touted out there:
.
Old 6th May 2018
  #217
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What's the frequency, Kenneth?
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Old 6th May 2018
  #218
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From a math perspective, there are only a few magic numbers. 0, Pi, e
Pi=3.14..........can be calculated to 1000's of digits
e=2.718..........can be calculated to 1000's of digits

And there there are aesthetic numbers, like the golden rectangle. 1.618...
I think this thread belongs in that realm.

So the basic argument is that 432 is a more aesthetically pleasing (to our ears) than 440? I will argue this may be relative to our age. When young we want things faster than when old.
Old 6th May 2018
  #219
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But one is the loneliest number.
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Old 6th May 2018
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
But one is the loneliest number.
Exactly.

One cycle (that's all ya need).

Doesn't matter how many "seconds" ya got.
.

Last edited by 12ax7; 6th May 2018 at 08:06 PM.. Reason: Is that YOU, Kenneth?
Old 6th May 2018
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
One cycle (that's all ya need).

Doesn't matter how many "seconds" ya got.
You only go around once.
Old 6th May 2018
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
You only go around once.
Well, let's not get into religion here...

...But that aside, if ANYTHING "only goes around once", then (by definition) there is NO frequency.
(Just sayin'.)
Old 7th May 2018
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
But one is the loneliest number.
I don't "do" numbers.
Old 23rd May 2018
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreiPiatra View Post
After studying for some time this issue(432Hz vs. 440Hz) I came to the conclusion that:

1. Most producers(99,9%) have no idea what they're working with;
2. Ignorance and laziness are a common habit for us, humans;
3. Song writers and everyone involved in music industry have a much bigger
responsability than they can imagine.

To me it is clear that 432Hz tuning should be the norm, if given the choice. The evidence is overwhelming. 432 is part of a special family of sacred numbers. It even sounds different, it has a specific warmth, feels right, like comming home, even smells like home.

I understand that many will deny this reality. You need to question A LOT of other things to come to this conclusion. Would like to suggest the Cosmic Patterns and Cycles of Catastrophe Blu-ray previews 1 to 8 presented by Randall Carlson uploaded on youtube. This should be a good start. Dig in further up to Nikola Tesla and his thoughts on 3, 6 and 9. Ask yourself what could be so special with this numbers. Then head to thenarrowgateweb website. Read everything from there. Ask yourself how Edward Leedskalnin built his Coral Castle. Go deeper and deeper, don't be afraid. And then come back and troll me...if you still have the power.

432Hz, it's time to make the switch. Internet as we know it won't be here for ever, you need to hurry. Best!

PS: It's so funny watching this Zuckerberg hearing. The biggest threat for The Elites is a free, unregulated Internet. This thing has THE power right now, THIS is what the hearing is about. So, they ask this Zuckerberg stupid questions to prove how bad it is for users not to be "protected" by a hierachical figure. By protecting meaning in-depth control and surveillance from someone overlooking the ins and outs. Safety doesn't equal Freedom, but Freedom can mean Safety.

A very interesting study from Schiller Institute can be read here: Schillerinstitute Campaign To Lower the Tuning Pitch*
This sounds a bit tin foil hat time but I think there maybe some truth to what you are saying. I was told that the brain responds differently to 434 than 440. I think there is something bout 432 being more relaxing. Frequencies, be they, light, sound or radio have an effect.

My concern today is lyrical content. Music today is just lame and I do wonder if the powers that be in the dying industry may be playing some role in dumbing people down. Music used to have a message and the composers and song writers often had noble motives for their compositions.

I played an open mic nite last week and what I noticed from the younger singer songwriters was a lack of energy, excessive use of personal pronouns, lack of a hook, boring, no creativity, no dynamics, and over all self-indulgent whining.

The there is electronic, trance, EDM.... that awful stuff with that obnoxious fake bass drum. It's not all awful but the people creating seem to lack the instincts of musicians. In fact I composed an EDM piece in about 10 minutes and posted it on Soundcloud and some lowlife stole it. I copyrighted in and most sites have taken it down. Google Play is still jerking me around but Google is a corporate gangster. I'll be sending them a lawyer letter.
https://soundcloud.com/cg-instrument...doo-do-it-wave

As to 440 vs 432 being the new standard, we can play and record in any frequency gamut we want.

Usually when something seems fishy, simply follow the money.
Old 23rd May 2018
  #225
Quote:
432 is part of a special family of sacred numbers.
How so? What are its sacred properties -- and upon what evidence or authority are you basing that presumption.

As I think someone already pointed out, there ARE a few very special numbers out there -- we might well call them 'sacred' for their importance in real world life. Probably the one most people know -- and hopefully understand at least part of the significance of -- is Pi, the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. It is fundamental to geometry and trigonometry. Without the concept of Pi, we would have no sophisticated geometry, trigonometry would be impossible. In our sphere (pun unintended but acknowledged) of audio work, Pi is fundamental to our understanding of wave phenomena and our ability to calculate and predict the behavior of sound in various media. Without Pi there scientists like Harry Nyquist would have been unable to make their enormously important contributions to our ability to measure and analyze wave phenomena (like sound).

Now, it seems to me, Pi is a good example of a number that approaches what we might call the sacred.

But just what is it that folks think makes 432 'sacred'?
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Old 23rd May 2018
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

But just what is it that folks think makes 432 'sacred'?
...And more importantly, what is "sacred" about that time period known as the 'second'?
(After all, its 432 cycles per SECOND.)
.
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Old 23rd May 2018
  #227
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
...And more importantly, what is "sacred" about that time period known as the 'second'?
(After all, its 432 cycles per SECOND.)
.
Well, clearly, as relatively arbitrary as the second is as a choice for a unit of measure of time -- and it is as we've discussed -- maybe it is MADE holy simply by being used in calculations using the 'sacred' number 432.

FWIW, 432 is a member of a geometric series with a common ratio of 2 that starts with the number 27. If we look at in the context of a geometric series with a common ratio of 2, that starting number is 16. Are THESE sacred numbers as well?

What ARE the properties of such 'sacred numbers' anyway?

'Sacred number' believers: Please explain their importance and why they are different from other numbers.

And if you can't, maybe you don't really know enough about what you are talking about to make these sorts of statements.
Old 23rd May 2018
  #228
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Imagining you hear sonic properties that come from arbitrarily assigned names is like naming your new puppy Houdini and then being genuinely surprised that he can't pick locks blindfolded.
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Old 23rd May 2018
  #229
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In the face of facts the idealistically-minded double down. Its an un-winnable mentality to try to reason with, anyone coming from the "find whatever reasons I can to prove my feelings true and ignore the rest" approach to understanding the world and how it works.
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Old 23rd May 2018
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teleharmonium View Post
Imagining you hear sonic properties that come from arbitrarily assigned names is like naming your new puppy Houdini and then being genuinely surprised that he can't pick locks blindfolded.
I named mine "Whodini", and imagine my disappointment and incredulity that the mutt couldn't rap...
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Old 23rd May 2018
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
FWIW, 432 is a member of a geometric series with a common ratio of 2 that starts with the number 27. If we look at in the context of a geometric series with a common ratio of 2, that starting number is 16. Are THESE sacred numbers as well?

What ARE the properties of such 'sacred numbers' anyway?
.
The Wife says that I am not allowed to drink more than two beers during Sunday lunch at the pub.

It appears to be some sort of sacred number to her, in that I'm given the impression that great steaming fissures will open in the earth and fire breathing lizards arise if I have more.


I'm glad the sacred number isn't one. Or, god forbid, zero.
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Old 23rd May 2018
  #232
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This thread makes me go "AAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
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Old 23rd May 2018
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
I didn't know about this before, but apparently there's a competing "magic frequency" being touted out there
How did I miss this revelation? The thread that keeps on giving. 60 seconds in and I’ve ejected from that particular video with a creeped-out feeling that I was about to be sold on an amazing tale of hooey, sold on the back of Nikola Tesla’s name and body of work. Not entirely inappropriate, I guess, as he was no stranger to outlandish crackpotism that seemed to be a package deal with his brilliance.

Fair warning for those who haven’t done the math: if you tune to 444Hz then an octave above middle C is almost exactly 528Hz. So be careful with A440 tunings as a small mistake may lead to unlocking the secrets of the universe. Tuning to 432Hz is substantially safer as C and C# will neatly straddle the magic frequency (seriously, the quarter tone between them is 528.79Hz - coincidence? I think not.)
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Old 23rd May 2018
  #234
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I heard that the key of F sharp was built on an old Indian burial ground.
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Old 24th May 2018
  #235
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
The Wife says that I am not allowed to drink more than two beers during Sunday lunch at the pub.

It appears to be some sort of sacred number to her, in that I'm given the impression that great steaming fissures will open in the earth and fire breathing lizards arise if I have more.


I'm glad the sacred number isn't one. Or, god forbid, zero.
Spouses seem to make up their own sacred numbers.

"Syd, if that girl from your office calls you ONE more time from some cocktail lounge at 1:30 in the morning, I'm going to burn your clothes on the front lawn."
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Old 24th May 2018
  #236
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I read once that the plural of spouse is spice.
Old 24th May 2018
  #237
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
...What ARE the properties of such 'sacred numbers' anyway?

'Sacred number' believers: Please explain their importance and why they are different from other numbers...
Well I'm not sure what a 'sacred number believer' is exactly but obviously some people find particular numbers to have significance for a variety of reasons.

The property of a sacred number (in my own definition/opinion) is one that corresponds with or interacts with other numbers or symbols. In a Saussurean sense, the number/symbol has two planes like a piece of paper: on one side the symbol on the other it's meaning as projected or interpreted by the viewer.

If mathematics is a language then the lexicon and syntax can include components that correspond to non-abstract phenomena in the physical world: for example, Sir Martin Rees dicusses 'the power of six' in cosmology, and I can attribute or superimpose any number of mathematical configurations onto the phenomenal world I experience.

432 is an interesting number (because of it's relationship to other numbers whether or not a realworld analogue exists or not): to mathematicians, to poets, and which kind of artist would not want to incorporate a little interest into their production?
Old 24th May 2018
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Well I'm not sure what a 'sacred number believer' is exactly but obviously some people find particular numbers to have significance for a variety of reasons.
There are numbers, sequences, ratios, patterns and constants that occur regularly in nature, for example the Fibonacci sequence, etc...I'd think most inquisitive persons would find that fascinating if not elemental, and trying to find greater meaning or finding applications for them in various ways is within our cultural DNA.

Whereas to ascribe the notion of 'sacred' to anything is wholly a human construct. More in the realm of metaphysics and pseudoscience, if not religiosity.
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Old 24th May 2018
  #239
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
There are numbers, sequences, ratios, patterns and constants that occur regularly in nature, for example the Fibonacci sequence, etc...I'd think most inquisitive persons would find that fascinating if not elemental, and trying to find greater meaning or finding applications for them in various ways is within our cultural DNA.

Whereas to ascribe the notion of 'sacred' to anything is wholly a human construct. More in the realm of metaphysics and pseudoscience, if not religiosity.
Totally agree; mathematical patterns are everywhere...except 432. Reification is not scientifically correct but people do it all the time; even dogmatic scientists.

My angle is that the mere relationship of 432 to other numbers (as an abstract concept) is remarkable and an interesting phenomena in it's own right. I think that is the 'sacred' bit - the specialness of it's interactability and the mathematical patterns it creates. I think many people see a divine perfection such forms (although personally I think our sense of what is divine has a root in evolutionary adaptation).
Old 24th May 2018
  #240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Well I'm not sure what a 'sacred number believer' is exactly but obviously some people find particular numbers to have significance for a variety of reasons.

The property of a sacred number (in my own definition/opinion) is one that corresponds with or interacts with other numbers or symbols. In a Saussurean sense, the number/symbol has two planes like a piece of paper: on one side the symbol on the other it's meaning as projected or interpreted by the viewer.
I'm no semiotician, but as I understand it, Saussure's primary contribution was his model of linguistic signs which proposes an arbitrary, bilateral relation between a signified and signifier. Key word: arbitrary. And, therefore, potentially dynamic/mutable.


Quote:
If mathematics is a language then the lexicon and syntax can include components that correspond to non-abstract phenomena in the physical world: for example, Sir Martin Rees dicusses 'the power of six' in cosmology, and I can attribute or superimpose any number of mathematical configurations onto the phenomenal world I experience.

432 is an interesting number (because of it's relationship to other numbers whether or not a realworld analogue exists or not): to mathematicians, to poets, and which kind of artist would not want to incorporate a little interest into their production?
Mathematics is a language that describes numbers and their relationships with other numbers. It is abstract. It can be used to describe and predict physical world phenomena. It should not be confused with them.

Just Six Numbers: The Deep Forces that Shape the Universe by Martin Rees – review

Rees's observations do look fascinating, but as I understand it, these 'six numbers' are more properly six values, not numbers, and that these values are often best represented as formulas. For instance, from the article linked above:

Quote:
One can marvel, almost indefinitely, at the balance between the nuclear forces and the astoundingly feeble but ultimately inexorable power of gravity, giving us N, a huge number involving 36 zeroes, and nod gratefully each time one is told that were gravity not almost exactly 1036 times weaker then we wouldn't be here.
Almost exactly 1036. Not exactly. Not some nice, clean, 'sacred' number. And N's value in base ten is a number involving 36 zeroes. Others of those values are similarly quite large or relatively infinitesimal.

Here's more on Rees' six values: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-t...verse#Examples


EDIT: And as newguy1 points out below, there's nothing about 'the power of six' in Rees's writing that I have found -- aside from the fact that he has suggested that there are six critical value ranges outside of which, a universe like ours would be impossible. Others disagree with his ideas.
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