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Why don't we switch to 432Hz tuning? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 17th April 2018
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Mr Stone has some cojones...
That's why they call them "stones"!
Old 17th April 2018
  #152
Gear Maniac
So I guess we're ignoring non Western tuning? There are still plenty of musical systems where pitch is still a matter of choice, even among a group of musicians playing the same tune. As for a specific tuning being universally "better" than another one ignores way too many variables to be taken seriously. All matter, including walking bags of water like humans, have a resonant frequency, usually more than one! No two bits of matter have the same resonances so to proclaim one tuning is somehow more natural than another is egocentric, species centric nonsense. IMHO.Personally I only read this thread for my daily laugh.
Old 17th April 2018
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
That's why they call them "stones"!
Old 17th April 2018
  #154
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Damn, you're good!

You are way over my abilities with rhetoric.

So I'll summarize how I see this kind of debate on GS:

There are those who believe in the veracity of esoteric, or occult, knowledge and those who don't. I don't.
I agree. I'm totally opposed to psuedoscience (apart from as a muse or artform) but in many of these types of threads the skeptics are missing an opportunity to set a benchmark for logic by over-generalising or personalising the debate. If an opinion or claim is wrong then it's best refuted through logic or demonstration, not ridicule.

I think you've accused me of sitting on the fence between logic and the illogical but my interest is in the difference/tension between Apollonian conceptions of music (top-down, ordered, regulated, tuned) and the Dionysian approach (wild man in the woods freely playing the flute); with 432 I'm interested in the tension between the standardised reference A440 (Apollonian) and variations (Dionysian). Apollonian and Dionysian - Wikipedia


Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
That he is! Much to respect.

Mr Stone has some cojones...
Thank you Sir!
Old 17th April 2018
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64gtoboy View Post
So I guess we're ignoring non Western tuning?
Well, only those "Westerners" without knowledge of other music.
Old 17th April 2018
  #156
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Quantum physics is the last refuge of a cornered ignoramus.
Salvor Hardin couldn't have said it better.
Old 17th April 2018
  #157
Quote:
Originally Posted by 64gtoboy View Post
No two bits of matter have the same resonances so to proclaim one tuning is somehow more natural than another is egocentric, species centric nonsense. IMHO.Personally I only read this thread for my daily laugh.
Don't forget Ethnocentric.

I wonder where Javanese musicians fall in the great 432hz debate, in relation to pelog and slendro tuning systems?
Old 17th April 2018
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64gtoboy View Post
So I guess we're ignoring non Western tuning?
It wasn't accidental, it was Occidental...
Old 17th April 2018
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Come on man, either 420, or 469...
I kinda like 420. It's a more peaceful, tranquil and laid back tuning pioneered by such luminaries as Jerry Garcia, Bob Marley, George Clinton and more recently Snoop Dogg. It's hard to describe the characteristics of this alternative tuning, but after a while it's like being in a dream-like state where you perceive things differently -- sounds are clearer, colors are more vivid, food has more flavor.
Old 17th April 2018
  #160
I've spent the past 5 years or so writing and recording in different frequency tunings, 444 and 432. What I found is it can benefit an artist who is stuck in a rut as I was, it feels new again and your singing feels different and fresh once you get past the initial strangeness, so I change every two or three years to give myself a boost, I'm just recently going back to 440. I don't see anything special about 432 over 444 but I do think it can help to change things up as I said, and ill always go back and forth between these 3 tunings. I do think that some instruments sound better at different tunings also. 432 can give a guitar a more open sound.

Last edited by aaronsmith; 17th April 2018 at 01:19 PM..
Old 17th April 2018
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
For example I learnt today (from the article) that with 432Hz as the A reference all the note frequencies become integers rather than fractions; this may have interest and consequences beyond your level of knowledge.
Integers of an arbitrary time scale so how is it relevant?

Alistair
Old 17th April 2018
  #162
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Just this evening, I did a session with some classical cats. They were talking about how alternatives to 440 sounded different in different halls. Worth considering, I think.

Late add: but all the variations they were talking about were higher than 440, not lower. And involving European orchestras and halls and opera houses. I can totally see why some singers in, say, Vienna might object to management jacking things up to 448 because the conductor thinks it's a better match for the hall.

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 17th April 2018 at 03:54 PM..
Old 17th April 2018
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
For example I learnt today (from the article) that with 432Hz as the A reference all the note frequencies become integers rather than fractions; this may have interest and consequences beyond your level of knowledge.
I don't get this kind of number fetishism.
- Like you could actually tune an instrument to 432.00000000000Hz (temperature drift, anyone).
- Like if any guitarist or violinist or whatever could hit the string so perfectly to achieve an integer frequency.
- Like if any of this matters at all.
Old 17th April 2018
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dluther View Post
I kinda like 420. It's a more peaceful, tranquil and laid back tuning pioneered by such luminaries as Jerry Garcia, Bob Marley, George Clinton and more recently Snoop Dogg. It's hard to describe the characteristics of this alternative tuning, but after a while it's like being in a dream-like state where you perceive things differently -- sounds are clearer, colors are more vivid, food has more flavor.
Lest we not forget the all time king of chronic, and perhaps yesteryear's greatest ambassador of a certain natural herbal OIC combatant, Swiss Kriss - Louis Armstrong.

But, I might favor 469, just for the anti prude stance if anything, just to state to be not against it...
Old 17th April 2018
  #165
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Integers of an arbitrary time scale so how is it relevant?

Alistair

Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
I don't get this kind of number fetishism.
- Like you could actually tune an instrument to 432.00000000000Hz (temperature drift, anyone).
- Like if any guitarist or violinist or whatever could hit the string so perfectly to achieve an integer frequency.
- Like if any of this matters at all.
Before I proceed: were either of you aware (before my post) that with a 432 reference notes are integers (whole numbers) whilst 440 produces fractions? Yes or no?
Old 17th April 2018
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
This stuff is more than a bit like those folks who deconstruct Biblical verses and then reconstruct them in various ways, looking for secret messages.
But...if you take the number of the beast and divide it by the ratio of the sides of the great pyramid to its base, you get ...........

432.


What more proof do you need?
Old 17th April 2018
  #167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Before I proceed: were either of you aware (before my post) that with a 432 reference notes are integers (whole numbers) whilst 440 produces fractions? Yes or no?
Before you proceed, are you aware that this is totally irrelevant?
Old 17th April 2018
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Before I proceed: were either of you aware (before my post) that with a 432 reference notes are integers (whole numbers) whilst 440 produces fractions? Yes or no?
No, I wasn't. And now that I've checked, I don't see how this is even the case with the standard equally tempered scale.

If
A = 432Hz, then
A# = 432*2^(1/12) = 457.688056763Hz
B = 432*(2^(1/12))^2 = 484.90360487Hz
C = 432*(2^(1/12))^3 = 513.737473681Hz
.
.
.

So which scale are you refering to here?

But even if it was, it'll only be the case, if you could actually tune something to exactly 432.00000000000000000000....0Hz, which is impossible.
If you end up with 432.000000000000000000001Hz, you did an astonishing job tuning your instrument, but still no integer notes.
Old 17th April 2018
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dluther View Post
439.7
Oh PLEASE!

If you're gonna start using decimal points, ya might as well use a few more digits!

How about 433.3333?
Was a cover song of an earlier newguy post . . . . which still hasn't been topped I opened with 467.7834523

Why don't we switch to 432Hz tuning?

My inner (outer. . . .complete and total) narcissist must get his "OH PLEASE!" face-in-hands credit
Old 17th April 2018
  #170
Quote:
Originally Posted by nspaas View Post
Before you proceed, are you aware that this is totally irrelevant?
So you don't think this should be discussed on Gearslutz?
Old 17th April 2018
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nspaas View Post
Before you proceed, are you aware that this is totally irrelevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
So you don't think this should be discussed on Gearslutz?
Dammit, if we enforced that rule, there'd be very little left.

Perhaps a few posts about the sonic properties of one brand of XLR connector over another, and endless arguments about whether a new piece of equipment sounds like someone's idealized memory of an old piece of equipment?
Old 17th April 2018
  #172
Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
No, I wasn't. And now that I've checked,...
So you made a decision before checking the facts?

As per my previous post, I read this yesterday in the linked article and I assume this is the scale the author is referring to in the comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
...I don't see how this is even the case with the standard equally tempered scale...So which scale are you refering to here?
Stradivari/Verdi Tuning, where A = 432 Hz, and C = 256 Hz.
This tuning is calculated using the Pythagorean method of 3:2 ratio for dominants, 11:8 for subdominants, and 2:1 for octaves.

Mid Low (1 Octave below Middle C)

C 128
D 144
E 162
F 176
G 192
A 216
B 243

Mid (Middle C)

C 256
D 288
E 324
F 352
G 384
A 432
B 486

Mid High (1 Octave above middle C)

C 512
D 576
E 648
F 704
G 768
A 864
B 972

The only issue I can see here is that the note B below MidC is 243Hz which leads to a fraction in the next octave down; so it is incorrect to say that all notes are integers as one is not.

Whether the scale is 'musical' or not, or whether any reification is occurring is a separate debate (which I'm happy to participate in).

Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
...But even if it was, it'll only be the case, if you could actually tune something to exactly 432.00000000000000000000....0Hz, which is impossible.
If you end up with 432.000000000000000000001Hz, you did an astonishing job tuning your instrument, but still no integer notes.
This is a bit silly.
Old 17th April 2018
  #173
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The division of time is an entirely arbitrary constuct. The length of a second is arbitrary, something humans pulled out their rears to help them sync up with themselves and measure time. The second could easily be 1.432 times as long, had we chosen it to be so, meaning every measurement involving time would land of different numbers. Our measurement of time is simply something we've created to help ourselves communicate our understandings of time with each other.

This makes Hz an entirely arbitrary human construct too, since Hz are a measurement that involve seconds.

This means that landing on whole numbers in relation to Hz is also arbitrary.

This is what renders this whole line of reasoning totally irrelevant.
Old 17th April 2018
  #174
Old 17th April 2018
  #175
Quote:
Originally Posted by dluther View Post
I kinda like 420. It's a more peaceful, tranquil and laid back tuning pioneered by such luminaries as Jerry Garcia, Bob Marley, George Clinton and more recently Snoop Dogg. It's hard to describe the characteristics of this alternative tuning, but after a while it's like being in a dream-like state where you perceive things differently -- sounds are clearer, colors are more vivid, food has more flavor.
I must be sitting too close to the screen... it took me about ten seconds after I finished reading that to knit it all together...
Old 17th April 2018
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
So you made a decision before checking the facts?
Which decision? That integer frequencies mean nothing. Yes.
You never presented any facts that they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
This is a bit silly.
Your integer obsession is silly.
Old 17th April 2018
  #177
Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
Which decision? That integer frequencies mean nothing.
No. I was referring to your comment preceding your research/checking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
You never presented any facts that they do.
The Stradivari/Verdi scale is a fact. I presented that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
...Your integer obsession is silly.
I mentioned 'integer' once a few posts back (as a quotation from the link) for discussion; the other times I've mentioned it have been in response to your comments - and this to you means 'obsession'?
Old 17th April 2018
  #178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
So you don't think this should be discussed on Gearslutz?
Um, actually my statement inquiring as to the irrelevance of your statement was responding directly the quoted irrelevant statement within my post, which to prevent even more pointless obfuscation read as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Before I proceed: were either of you aware (before my post) that with a 432 reference notes are integers (whole numbers) whilst 440 produces fractions? Yes or no?
(Pretty obvious actually)

Once again: Before you proceed, are you aware of the irrelevance of this above, directly quoted within this post, statement regarding a supposed absence of fractions with a 432 tuning reference?
Old 17th April 2018
  #179
Quote:
Originally Posted by nspaas View Post
Um, actually my statement inquiring as to the irrelevance of your statement was responding directly the quoted irrelevant statement within my post, which to prevent even more pointless obfuscation read as:



(Pretty obvious actually)

Once again: Before you proceed, are you aware of the irrelevance of this above, directly quoted within this post, statement regarding a supposed absence of fractions with a 432 tuning reference?
It's not at all irrelevant (although you might think it is).
Old 17th April 2018
  #180
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
It's not at all irrelevant (although you might think it is).
So tell us, how is it relevant?

Alistair
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