The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Why don't we switch to 432Hz tuning? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 16th April 2018
  #121
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
You need to get out more.
What is up with these personal drive-bys today? My reply did not warrant this response.

EDIT:

Ahh you edited in more. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
What do you think Autotune does to 432HZ?
You can set autotune to whatever frequency man, you can adjust the whole thing down 8hz if you like, takes 2 seconds. Autotune tightens up to wherever you set it to. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

My point is that the choice of 440 as the standard is arbitrary. Its simply what people have all agreed to use as the standard. There's nothing inherant about it, other than everyone agreeing to use it.
Old 16th April 2018
  #122
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
What is up with these personal drive-bys today? My reply did not warrant this response.
My, we ARE a bit touchy, aren't we?

There's nothing "personal" about it (other than the fact that I responded to you).

My comment was NOT about YOU.

My comment was about what you SAID (there's a difference).
.
Old 16th April 2018
  #123
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
My, we ARE a bit touchy, aren't we?

There's nothing "personal" about it (other than the fact that I responded to you).

My comment was NOT about YOU.

My comment was about what you SAID (there's a difference).
.
"You need to get out more" does not address the subject matter of my post.

Anyway, here's autotune. Note the center top. Just turn the knob to whatever core frequency you like and it'll snap to that. You want 432? Just turn the knob.

Old 16th April 2018
  #124
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
What is up with these personal drive-bys today? My reply did not warrant this response.

EDIT:

Ahh you edited in more. .



You can set autotune to whatever frequency man, you can adjust the whole thing down 8hz if you like, takes 2 seconds. Autotune tightens up to wherever you set it to. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

My point is that the choice of 440 as the standard is arbitrary. Its simply what people have all agreed to use as the standard. There's nothing inherant about it, other than everyone agreeing to use it.
Okay, now I'm confused:

In light of what you have said in the above post, I'm now not quite sure what it is that you are advocating and/or opposing.
.
Old 16th April 2018
  #125
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Okay, now I'm confused:

In light of what you have said in the above post, I'm now not quite sure what it is that you are advocating and/or opposing.
.
My argument is that there is no "universal frequency" tuning of any kind at all.

Its not 432 or 440 or anything else, choice of tuning is entirely arbitrary on all fronts. 440 just happens to be the currently agreed upon standard, due to how history happened to unfold.

The only essential thing is that everyone's in tune with each other. Everything beyond that is just personal preference. If a band/project wants to work at 440, or 432, or 410, or 467.7834523, its all just personal preference. They may find that a certain tuning sounds better for a song, but its not because they've tapped into some cosmic shizz.
Old 16th April 2018
  #126
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
My argument is that there is no "universal frequency" tuning of any kind at all.

Its not 432 or 440 or anything else, choice of tuning is entirely arbitrary on all fronts. 440 just happens to be the currently agreed upon standard, due to how history happened to unfold.

The only essential thing is that everyone's in tune with each other. Everything beyond that is just personal preference. If a band/project wants to work at 440, or 432, or 410, or 467.7834523, its all just preference.
Well, then you and I would seem to be in perfect agreement on this particular statement.

(I told you it was a stupid argument.)
.
Old 16th April 2018
  #127
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
My only dog in this fight (if one can pardon the brutal metaphor) is abhorrence of pseudoscience and nonsensical rationalization in support of personal preference.
Hey, I'm with ya there!

Its always bothered me when the "right side" of an argument just happens to carry the day as a result of faulty logic.

That sorta thing will almost always come back to bite ya on the ass (one way or another).
.
Old 16th April 2018
  #128
I think I'm starting to see why the Tower of Babel fell apart. I don't think it was the unseen hand of the deity so much as good old-fashioned schismogenesis.
Old 16th April 2018
  #129
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I think I'm starting to see why the Tower of Babel fell apart. I don't think it was the unseen hand of the deity so much as good old-fashioned schismogenesis.
...You mean there's actually a difference?
.
Old 16th April 2018
  #130
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
...You mean there's actually a difference?
.



I'm not in a position to speculate.
Old 16th April 2018
  #131
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I'm not in a position to speculate.
Ah...
William Shakespeare | As You Like It | ACT V SCENE I
Got it.
.
Old 16th April 2018
  #132
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I think I'm starting to see why the Tower of Babel fell apart. I don't think it was the unseen hand of the deity so much as good old-fashioned schismogenesis.
Ha. Except Tower of Babel = 432, just a very old (and odd) backwards rationalization for the multitude of languages.
Old 16th April 2018
  #133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
My angle is 'why do some people have a preference for 432?' - is it a cultural preference or a biological one?
IMHO it's definitely a cultural phenomenon, as in a fad based pseudoscientific cultural phenomenon.
Old 16th April 2018
  #134
Quote:
Originally Posted by nspaas View Post
IMHO it's definitely a cultural phenomenon, as in a fad based pseudoscientific cultural phenomenon.
Well 440 is obviously a cultural reference so that supports the idea that 432 is too. I guess the only way to find out for sure is to study the reference pitches of geographically-remote and culturally-isolated people and make a comparison.
Old 16th April 2018
  #135
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
I just recorded a full album with a country artist on 443 Hz. We started with his vocals and acoustic guitar and once i started working on the arrangements and guitar parts I realized something was off. I was guessing it's his playing technique but it turned out that his Martin needed a setup. After some experimentation I realized that tuning to 443hz worked well for my parts and even though we re-recorded his parts later on an after a setup from a great luthier (a night and day difference) we kept everything that was added incl. bass, mandolin, violin, dobro, etc in 443 Hz. But it was interesting that the original tracks sounded quite good, not out of tune but just transposed..... Playing along in 440, 441 or even 442 sounded very off, it's not subtle at all.

I'm anxious to learn how the universe will react to it.....
Old 16th April 2018
  #136
Lives for gear
 

Music is Art.

Facts are Reference points.

People will either like your Art .... or not.
Old 16th April 2018
  #137
I found an interesting article and comments here: https://ask.audio/articles/music-the...t-from-fiction

It dispels some of the myths surrounding the 'the psuedoscientific cult of 432' but the comments raise some interesting historical precedents for that reference (and others) being in use from antiquity until recently.
Old 16th April 2018
  #138
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
I just recorded a full album with a country artist on 443 Hz. We started with his vocals and acoustic guitar and once i started working on the arrangements and guitar parts I realized something was off. I was guessing it's his playing technique but it turned out that his Martin needed a setup. After some experimentation I realized that tuning to 443hz worked well for my parts and even though we re-recorded his parts later on an after a setup from a great luthier (a night and day difference) we kept everything that was added incl. bass, mandolin, violin, dobro, etc in 443 Hz. But it was interesting that the original tracks sounded quite good, not out of tune but just transposed..... Playing along in 440, 441 or even 442 sounded very off, it's not subtle at all.

I'm anxious to learn how the universe will react to it.....
The higher the tuning reference, with string instruments, there's more tension. So, there will be a difference in terms of sonics/sonority. Not much different than the how differences in string gauges, or different tunings affect tone and even technique.

It's common practice, throughout the world, where major orchestras tune slightly higher, i.e. the Berlin Phil (supposedly at 445!), the NY Phil, the Boston and SF symphonies, many others - where it's for the 'sound'. I wasn't kidding with my earlier post; there is a perceptible crispness, sharpness in overall sonority.

...whereas, for practical maters, in some cases, other tunings are used:
Quote:
Orchestras in Cuba typically use A436 as the pitch so that the strings, which are almost impossible to obtain, would last longer. In 2015 American pianist Simone Dinnerstein brought attention to this issue and later traveled to Cuba with strings donated by friends

Concert pitch - Wikipedia
In terms of other practical matters, 432 might not jibe with modern woodwind and brass instruments, where its design regarding tube length, fingerings, bore, etc are optimized to 440.
Old 16th April 2018
  #139
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

I've just decided that here's the way it should be:

C=436

And now that I have spoken upon the matter, it shall be so.

...After all, I AM the world's foremost expert on my opinion!
Old 16th April 2018
  #140
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I found an interesting article and comments here: Music Theory: 432 Hz - Separating Fact From Fiction : Ask.Audio

It dispels some of the myths surrounding the 'the psuedoscientific cult of 432' but the comments raise some interesting historical precedents for that reference (and others) being in use from antiquity until recently.
This is from the comments section:

"Astrology is the mother of all esoteric sciences because it entirely integrates the rational with the non-rational. if one discounts magical systems as being non-rational (or unreal) with prejudice then that is itself an irrational belief. "

I recall you being a sort of devil's advocate in another thread, maybe about cables. The quote here, to me, sums up your point of view, that everything must be allowed into consideration (rational or irrational) so that no one can claim the high ground and say "This is right, that is not". To people like me, this is useless, pedantic nonsense. But many minds on this forum are as open as a badminton net, and for them, nobody knows anything for sure. I can't live like that. I need the reassurances of physics and facts. But I'm certainly not the one to tell others they don't need them.
Old 16th April 2018
  #141
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
To clarify: in every thread where this kind of debate comes up, whether it's Hanson Hsu's magic panels, or frequencies stratospherically higher than Nyquist affecting the hearing range, or sacred vibrational elements used in $400,000 cables, or in this case - 432 -

somebody just has to post a screed about how "we don't have all the answers yet. Human knowledge is in its infancy. Science isn't the only way to view things. The Ancients knew things we have lost because Science. Because Big Pharma. Because the Illuminati." And my favorite: the use of the word "Quantum". Quantum physics is the last refuge of a cornered ignoramus.
Old 16th April 2018
  #142
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Now I'm starting to take a shine to A=412Hz.

Anybody with me?
Old 16th April 2018
  #143
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Now I'm starting to take a shine to A=412Hz.

Anybody with me?
Come on man, either 420, or 469...

either will do.
Old 16th April 2018
  #144
Gear Addict
 
Rockabilly69's Avatar
Old 16th April 2018
  #145
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
This is from the comments section:

"Astrology is the mother of all esoteric sciences because it entirely integrates the rational with the non-rational. if one discounts magical systems as being non-rational (or unreal) with prejudice then that is itself an irrational belief. "

I recall you being a sort of devil's advocate in another thread, maybe about cables....
Which thread? A 'devils advocate' about cables? Really? Well, the silver ones do sound different from the copper ones...in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
...The quote here, to me, sums up your point of view, that everything must be allowed into consideration (rational or irrational) so that no one can claim the high ground and say "This is right, that is not"...
I've never said that and I don't think that; you're either mistaken or confabulating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
...To people like me,...
Who are 'people like you'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
...this is useless, pedantic nonsense.
You think it is but you lack the education needed to develop a thorough analysis. Obviously there are psuedoscientific myths around 432 and the article I linked to discusses this but equally there are interesting phenomena too - and this thread is a good place to discuss this, to learn and develop a deeper understanding of the phenomena.

For example I learnt today (from the article) that with 432Hz as the A reference all the note frequencies become integers rather than fractions; this may have interest and consequences beyond your level of knowledge. It's a shame you feel the need to engage in baseless character assassination to substantiate your worldview.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
...But many minds on this forum are as open as a badminton net, and for them, nobody knows anything for sure...
You seem to be discriminating against people based on your limited understanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
...I can't live like that. I need the reassurances of physics and facts. But I'm certainly not the one to tell others they don't need them.
Well don't tell them then.
Old 16th April 2018
  #146
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Damn, you're good!

You are way over my abilities with rhetoric.

So I'll summarize how I see this kind of debate on GS:

There are those who believe in the veracity of esoteric, or occult, knowledge and those who don't. I don't.
Old 16th April 2018
  #147
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Damn, you're good!
That he is! Much to respect.

Mr Stone has some cojones...
Old 16th April 2018
  #148
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Come on man, either 420, or 469...

either will do.
Okay!

NOW we're havin' a conversation!

It's like an auction: "Do I hear 435?"
Old 16th April 2018
  #149
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
It's like an auction: "Do I hear 435?"
439.7
Old 16th April 2018
  #150
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dluther View Post
439.7
Oh PLEASE!

If you're gonna start using decimal points, ya might as well use a few more digits!

How about 433.3333?
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump