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Why don't we switch to 432Hz tuning? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 13th April 2018
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZangTumblyTumble View Post
Leopold Kronecher: "God created the integers. Everything else is the work of man."

Hawking used it for the title of an anthology he edited. And the quote itself was tongue in cheek, simply based on the observation that we all start maths by counting things.

However, taking that into account, I'm unclear as to why the OP insists on 432Hz but not Pythagorean tuning, which is more "natural" rather than all that artificial equal-temperament stuff. It's tough that we aren't going to be able to use key modulation but in the quest for enlightenment where A4 is the right frequency godammit, what's a little sacrifice?

Cheers! In all honesty what I'm not fine with is the approach A440Hz was agreed on. This number means nothing, most likely had little to no value for the ancient civilizations. Some would claim destructive value, but I couldn't care less, I don't like to speculate. Tuning on A432 Hz holds value, by a lot. There are reports that pyramid chambers were tuned to A432Hz, there is for sure something special about it. I think we need to know more about sacred numbers, sacred geometry, magnetism, astronomy, there is clear evidence that extremely valuable scientific information is NOT public for unknown reasons, yet we're surrounded with amazing ancient structures that nobody can explain(loaded with patterns of all kind), or better said, willing to explain.(Freemasonry members are publicly exposing ancient symbols, for they understand their meaning, most likely. For more in-depth go to thenarrowgateweb blog that is trying to put this mysteries into the spotlight).

This is why, if given the choice, we should investigate this subject a little more, and in my opinion start with tuning our instruments on A432 for now. If given the choice! I understand this can't happen in all circumstances for objective reasons, as partly described by norfolk martin.
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Old 14th April 2018
  #32
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Maybe this would help:
The History of Pitch Standards in Western Music
.
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Old 14th April 2018
  #33
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Beside the personal satisfaction of driving anyone with 'Absolute Perfect Pitch' a bit crazy , the idea of intentional 'pitch change reference'
was not un-common back in our production days with multi-track tapes.

With pitch control of 1/100th cent, a Producer was free to tweak the tempo/pitch.

Of course, back in the daze of things like cassette tape players ... try to find 2 that ran at the same speed. [studio recorders WERE calibrated].

Today, we have the absolutes of digital TUNERS ... so everyone has a number they can aim at.

Tuning by Ear is almost frowned upon. Just don't say that to those that tune acoustic Pianos. They 'stretch' piano tuning as an art to a clients specification.

Artists are the ones to take these decisions into their creative assessment.

PINK FLOYD's decision to use 432 hz tuning for 'Dark Side of the Moon' didn't ask for permission. [just think how many more albums they could have sold, had they tuned to 440]. They made an artistic decision with their work.

I think we need more Artists .... and less Technocrats in music. Less sterile Quantization, total reliance on Pitch Correction, and artificial track construction.

Real players, performing well constructed songs, with emotion and feel .... recorded and mixed to deliver the artists sonic intent. Talk about flying into the face of the current music business. It'll take another Beatles, or Michael Jackson to alter music history.
Old 14th April 2018
  #34
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Why this is in songwriting subforum? What to do for those, who write songs on paper?
Old 14th April 2018
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreiPiatra View Post
After studying for some time this issue(432Hz vs. 440Hz) I came to the conclusion that:

1. Most producers(99,9%) have no idea what they're working with;
2. Ignorance and laziness are a common habit for us, humans;
3. Song writers and everyone involved in music industry have a much bigger
responsability than they can imagine.

To me it is clear that 432Hz tuning should be the norm, if given the choice. The evidence is overwhelming. 432 is part of a special family of sacred numbers. It even sounds different, it has a specific warmth, feels right, like comming home, even smells like home.

I understand that many will deny this reality. You need to question A LOT of other things to come to this conclusion. Would like to suggest the Cosmic Patterns and Cycles of Catastrophe Blu-ray previews 1 to 8 presented by Randall Carlson uploaded on youtube. This should be a good start. Dig in further up to Nikola Tesla and his thoughts on 3, 6 and 9. Ask yourself what could be so special with this numbers. Then head to thenarrowgateweb website. Read everything from there. Ask yourself how Edward Leedskalnin built his Coral Castle. Go deeper and deeper, don't be afraid. And then come back and troll me...if you still have the power.

432Hz, it's time to make the switch. Internet as we know it won't be here for ever, you need to hurry. Best!

PS: It's so funny watching this Zuckerberg hearing. The biggest threat for The Elites is a free, unregulated Internet. This thing has THE power right now, THIS is what the hearing is about. So, they ask this Zuckerberg stupid questions to prove how bad it is for users not to be "protected" by a hierachical figure. By protecting meaning in-depth control and surveillance from someone overlooking the ins and outs. Safety doesn't equal Freedom, but Freedom can mean Safety.

A very interesting study from Schiller Institute can be read here: Schillerinstitute Campaign To Lower the Tuning Pitch*

Is that kool-aid tasty?
Old 15th April 2018
  #36
Where is joeq when we really need him?
Old 15th April 2018
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
So:

we're going to put exotic replacement motors in all Hammond organs, re-tune 50-100 million pianos, change the length and hence the pressure behavior and response of all brass and reed instruments, and probably require truss rod adjustment on a million or so guitars, so some folks in California can feel groovy?
Hey, now, wait just a second... California is the home of everything from classic rocket science to the seminal days of computing.

I always thought of the 432 Hz tuning people as all being from western Pennsylvania.
Old 15th April 2018
  #38
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Hey, now, wait just a second... California is the home of everything from classic rocket science to the seminal days of computing.

I always thought of the 432 Hz tuning people as all being from western Pennsylvania.
A google search with "Ojai" and "ayahuasca" in it oughta set you right.
Old 15th April 2018
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
A google search with "Ojai" and "ayahuasca" in it oughta set you right.
Well, I'll admit I haven't been to Ojai since the 70s -- when it didn't have a new age shopping area (my research was shallow just now but that's the impression I took away) but was close to some nice camping. Of course, the 70s, hippie-dippie stuff didn't exactly stand out. DMT was the high tech answer to Ayahuasca back in the day, of course.

I've run into a few 'tuning conspiracy' folks in 3DW California -- I knew about the slow standardization of tuning from reading about music history as a kid, but the most notable advocate of 432 I met back then was my introduction to the conspiracy theory side of it all, he brought in WWII politics and underground UFO bases and the Urantia book... and the 'fundamental resonance of the universe,' too.

That said, I feel like I've run into a lot more tuning conspiracy folks on the web but maybe it's just the nature of online sociality that people are sometimes more willing to share their not necessarily well-grounded personal theories...
Old 15th April 2018
  #40
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While I appreciate the argument about
switching to 432, for whatever Fibonacci-
centric reasons one may have, A=440hz is
here to stay. For the same reason that
everyone uses mp3 as a format..because
everyone uses mp3 as a format.

I’ve worked as a keyboard tech for many
tours. I’ll guarantee you if I had the
pianos and keyboards tuned to 432hz, I’d
be fired and on a plane back home.
Seriously.

It’s a nice thought, but in the real world,
its just not gonna happen.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Polich View Post
While I appreciate the argument about
switching to 432, for whatever Fibonacci-
centric reasons one may have, A=440hz is
here to stay. For the same reason that
everyone uses mp3 as a format..because
everyone uses mp3 as a format.

I’ve worked as a keyboard tech for many
tours. I’ll guarantee you if I had the
pianos and keyboards tuned to 432hz, I’d
be fired and on a plane back home.
Seriously.

It’s a nice thought, but in the real world,
its just not gonna happen.
...there's a reason why I added "if given the choice" right from the start. Cheers for the comment, my hope is to investigate this as scientific as possible to get at the bottom of it once and for all, cause 440 is for sure here to stay otherwise.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #42
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Here's a good video on this topic including playing comparisons beginning at 4:25. I have played so much in 440Hz over the years that 432Hz sounds out of tune to me.

YouTube

FWIW, Mozart played in 432.

Those who support 432 say it is one of the numbers occurring in the fibonacci sequence repeatedly found in nature. The problem with that reasoning is that frequency is measured in cycles per second, and there is nothing sacred in nature about the exact length of a second. Had we originally defined a second to be a minute fraction shorter, then we would have had 440Hz as the naturally occurring fibonacci number for the frequency of A above middle C. So 432 is in part arbitrary when other factors are considered.

In sum, it doesn't make much difference, other than you need a standard and the standard today is 440.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
Here's a good video on this topic including playing comparisons beginning at 4:25. I have played so much in 440Hz over the years that 432Hz sounds out of tune to me.

YouTube

FWIW, Mozart played in 432.

Those who support 432 say it is one of the numbers occurring in the fibonacci sequence repeatedly found in nature. The problem with that reasoning is that frequency is measured in cycles per second, and there is nothing sacred in nature about the exact length of a second. Had we originally defined a second to be a minute fraction shorter, then we would have had 440Hz as the naturally occurring fibonacci number for the frequency of A above middle C. So 432 is in part arbitrary when other factors are considered.

In sum, it doesn't make much difference, other than you need a standard and the standard today is 440.
[bold added]

And there ya go, nutshelled.

The division of time into seconds is not only arbitrary, as noted, but that division is not 'in tune' with the cosmic rhythms around us. 86,400 seconds 'neatly' add up to a day on the calendar -- but that day is not quite 1/365.25 of a year; we add an extra day to the calendar every 4 years (like an exasperated bank patron finally making a paper 'adjustment' to their check register just to get their checkbook to balance) -- but even then, it doesn't come our right and we have to add a 'leap second' every once in a while to keep things sort of lined up.

The utter silliness of the 'cosmic value' of 432 Hz should really be obvious to anyone capable of thinking through a few logical steps.

It's rather sobering that so many people adopt a belief in that notion when it's so easy to see the nonsensicality of it. =/


Oh, yeah, there's one more point of fact that should be noted -- 432 is not part of the Fibonacci sequence.

The Fibonacci sequence begins: 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, 4181, 6765, 10946, 17711, 28657, 46368, 75025, 121393, 196418, 317811, ...

Yet, some of the 432 'supernaturalists' keep repeating the Fibonacci false notion without ever checking their facts.

I certainly do NOT care what other people tune to in their music (presuming they don't expect me to play along or deal with the numerous potential tuning and other issues arising from such practice, anyhow).

But could we PLEASE put this 'cosmic number' crap to rest once and for all?
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Old 15th April 2018
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
But could we PLEASE put this 'cosmic number' crap to rest once and for all?
Could we Puuulease?!? If only...

What kills me is seeing those "faithful" to 432 in the studio tuning up a GUITAR (instrument with notorious bad intonation compared to piano... which itself doesn't intonate perfectly across all keys and range of instrument) with a SNARK tuner. Then they lecture me on the "science of tuning" before clamping on a capo and recording a song in C (slightly flat).

432 tuning is the crown jewel of stupid musician beliefs.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #45
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The more quantifiable improvement to the record listening experience is to speed them up a bit, not slow them down. Radio stations found that out very quickly back in the day.

But that's getting into weird things like facts and measurable results and stuff. . . less of this:
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Old 15th April 2018
  #46
432 sounds warmer and more analogue. I'm currently working on a project at 432Hz and it feels good.
Old 15th April 2018
  #47
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432 is a crackpot conspiracy theory invented by Lyndon LaRouche, many decades ago now. It’s outlined in his Wikipedia entry, under the part about his Schiller Institute.

Why it recycled again during the last US election cycle’s “fake news” rev up is anyone’s guess. Maybe as a way to detect people who have poor comprehension skills on social media, to then target them with political propaganda later on.

LaRouche is directly named in the Trump dossier FWIW.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #48
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Mozart didn’t play in 432. That is not factual at all.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #49
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None of the 'measurement' terms that Man/Science ascribe 'exist' in Nature/Universe.

The measurement 'definitions' are there to make finite reference from agreed upon 'standards'.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #50
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UnderTow's Avatar
Why don't we switch to 432 Hz?

Because we aren't all ignorant fools.


If you have researched this and not come to the conclusion that this is nonsense, you are an idiot.

Alistair
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Old 15th April 2018
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
432 is a crackpot conspiracy theory invented by Lyndon LaRouche, many decades ago now. It’s outlined in his Wikipedia entry, under the part about his Schiller Institute.

Why it recycled again during the last US election cycle’s “fake news” rev up is anyone’s guess. Maybe as a way to detect people who have poor comprehension skills on social media, to then target them with political propaganda later on.

LaRouche is directly named in the Trump dossier FWIW.
Quote:
...LaRouche and his wife have an interest in classical music up to the period of Brahms. A motto of LaRouche's European Workers' Party, is "Think like Beethoven"; movement offices typically include a piano and posters of German composers, and members are known for their choral singing at protest events and for using satirical lyrics tailored to their targets.[147] LaRouche abhors popular music; he said in 1980, "Rock was not an accidental thing. This was done by people who set out in a deliberate way to subvert the United States. It was done by British intelligence," and wrote that the Beatles were "a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division specifications."[148] LaRouche movement members have protested at performances of Richard Wagner's operas, denouncing Wagner as an anti-Semite who found favor with the ****s, and called a conductor "satanic" because he played contemporary music.[149]

In 1989 LaRouche advocated that classical orchestras should use a concert pitch based on A above middle C (A4) tuned to 432 Hz, which the Schiller Institute called the "Verdi pitch," a pitch that Verdi had suggested as optimal, though he also composed and conducted in other pitches such as the French official diapason normal of 435 Hz, including his Requiem in 1874.[150]

The Schiller Institute initiative attracted support from more than 300 opera stars, including Joan Sutherland, Plácido Domingo and Luciano Pavarotti, who according to Opera Fanatic may or may not have been aware of LaRouche's politics...
Source: Lyndon LaRouche - Wikipedia
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Old 15th April 2018
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
The more quantifiable improvement to the record listening experience is to speed them up a bit, not slow them down. Radio stations found that out very quickly back in the day.

But that's getting into weird things like facts and measurable results and stuff. . . less of this:
Well, faster and higher in pitch tends to be more 'exciting'... particularly when you're accustomed -- but perhaps slightly unsatisfied -- with the original.

It was, indeed, a not-uncommon trick. And I've used the modern equivalent on several occasions with tracks that ended up being not as 'exciting' as I'd hoped. I keep the pitch but up the tempo a little via the risky magic of DSP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
432 is a crackpot conspiracy theory invented by Lyndon LaRouche, many decades ago now. It’s outlined in his Wikipedia entry, under the part about his Schiller Institute.

Why it recycled again during the last US election cycle’s “fake news” rev up is anyone’s guess. Maybe as a way to detect people who have poor comprehension skills on social media, to then target them with political propaganda later on.

LaRouche is directly named in the Trump dossier FWIW.
The alternate tuning trope and even, as I have understood it, some of the 'conspiracy theory' aspects of it predated Larouche, but conspiracy theories were his stock-in-trade (setting him up for a revival of wary interest, I would think, in light of current events and trends) -- but he seemed to vest particular interest in this odd, niche controversy.

Lyndon Larouche, Roy Cohn, Joe McCarthy... they all promoted a special brand of invent-your-own-reality thinking seemingly well-tuned to con the willfully ignorant and pathetically gullible among us.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #53
It's noteworthy that 300 leading opera singers supported a move to 432.
Old 15th April 2018
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
denouncing Wagner as an anti-Semite who found favor with the ****s, and called a conductor "satanic" because he played contemporary music.[149]
Sheesh. Ok Boomers, maybe you're not so bad with your opinions on contemporary Nothing like the prior generation going with "satanic" to give things some perspective lol
Old 15th April 2018
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
If you have researched this and not come to the conclusion that this is nonsense, you are an idiot.
Well, maybe not necessarily:
.
Old 15th April 2018
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
Mozart didn’t play in 432. That is not factual at all.
Read the history of 'tuning'.

excerpt
Quote:
In the 18th Century and onwards, the standard pitch in use was the so-called “classical pitch”Diapason Normal, a copy of Koenig's tuning fork of A=422 Hz to which Bach Mozart and Beeetoven wrote. But by the middle of the 19th century, the number of vibrations had increased in practice to A=435. An early effort to obtain wide recognition of this pitch, the French Government in 1859 , acting with the advice of Halevy, Meyerbeer, Auber, Ambroise, and Rossini, established by law the “Diapason Normal”. And deposited at the Paris Conservatory of Music a standard tuning fork which was to be the standard pitch or “diapason”. The frequencies generated by vibrations of this fork were stated to be 435 Hz for A above middle C. Other countries gradually followed, and, with few exceptions, the low pitch derived from the Diapason Normal seemed to prevail throughout the musical world – with Great Britain the last to fall in step.
Those wanting some education on this topic. Check this.

History of Pitch - The Diapason Normal
Old 15th April 2018
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
It's noteworthy that 300 leading opera singers supported a move to 432.
300 leading opera singers, huh?

Sounds like there's a list. Could you give us a link?
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Old 15th April 2018
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Sheesh. Ok Boomers, maybe you're not so bad with your opinions on contemporary Nothing like "satanic" to give things some perspective lol

EDIT: Oh wait I misread the referenece. That was a Boomer talking. Ha!
In early modern cultures there's a widespread deep-rooted belief associating novelty with 'the devil' - I guess that in those cultures there was an evolutionary advantage in treating new things with suspicion.

My interest here is in why some people welcome 432 and others not.
Old 15th April 2018
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
300 leading opera singers, huh?

Sounds like there's a list. Could you give us a link?
Putting aside the "300 leading" lol. . . . its fallacious reasoning anyway

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
In early modern cultures there's a widespread deep-rooted belief associating novelty with 'the devil' - I guess that in those cultures there was an evolutionary advantage in treating new things with suspicion.
Yeah, and there was def a strong element of this going on in the 80s, which is when that statement was made. I was the kid who couldn't play DnD because it would turn me into a satan worshiping murderer <eye roll>, #6 in this link:

Remembering The Satanic Panic Of The 1980s - VH1 News

And it wasn't a Boomer talking, I re-edited that.
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Old 15th April 2018
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
It's noteworthy that 300 leading opera singers supported a move to 432.
...So (mathematically speaking) I guess we only need 132 more "leading opera singers" to sign on to the idea, and then the universe will begin to resonate to its full potential!
.
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