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Why don't we switch to 432Hz tuning? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 30th May 2018
  #361
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreiPiatra View Post

A very interesting study from Schiller Institute can be read here: Schillerinstitute Campaign To Lower the Tuning Pitch*
Can't we just make it go to 11?
Old 30th May 2018
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Are you seriously asking me to build a spacecraft (at my own expense), just so I can take you up for a look at our planet (in order to settle some lame-ass argument on GearSlutz)?

...And then (to boot) you predict that this will not be sufficient to convince you?

I MUST admire your stubbornness!
.
Correct. My ideological emotional preference is that the Earth is flat. Nothing you do can convince me otherwise.
Old 30th May 2018
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Correct. My ideological emotional preference is that the Earth is flat. Nothing you do can convince me otherwise.
I can dig it, we live in a Pac-Man world.

https://www.sciencealert.com/flat-ea...man-world-edge
Old 30th May 2018
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
[INDENT]Are you seriously asking me to build a spacecraft (at my own expense), just so I can take you up for a look at our planet (in order to settle some lame-ass argument on GearSlutz)?
Of course you have launch a rocket at your own expense. Noted flat earther "Mad" Mike Hughes did:

'Mad' Mike Hughes Finally Blasts Off in Homemade Rocket

Did you expect Elon Musk to pay for it?
Old 30th May 2018
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I can dig it, we live in a Pac-Man world.

https://www.sciencealert.com/flat-ea...man-world-edge
That's insanity of course, but there's actually some truth to this idea at the "core nature of the universe" level: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ographic-univ/

"physicists have deduced absolute limits on how much information a region of space or a quantity of matter and energy can hold. Related results suggest that our universe, which we perceive to have three spatial dimensions, might instead be written on a two-dimensional surface, like a hologram. Our everyday perceptions of the world as three-dimensional would then be either a profound illusion or merely one of two alternative ways of viewing reality. A grain of sand may not encompass our world, but a flat screen might."

I love physics. I'd highly recommend watching "The Fabric Of the Cosmos" to anyone and everyone with an interest in this stuff. Great 4-part documentary. Pretty much nothing is what we think it is, IE my "time" posts earlier, that's covered in the doc too.

NOVA - Official Website | The Fabric of the Cosmos

Amazon is streaming it right now.
Old 30th May 2018
  #366
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
I am a synaesthesist. No, because I have no absolute hearing. So there is no colorful pitch shifting. And pitch is not connected to color, chords are connected to color in a way but not defnite, in conjunction with geometric forms, but the clearest connection is between sound and color.

So, f*** the tuning... doesnt matter. But: That could be a complete different story for every single synaesthesist.
The book I'm reading The Emerging Mind by V. Ramachandran says that some of the synaesthesists studied did associate pitch with colour...also numbers (and other things). The synaesthesia phenonemon seems to be related to genetics and brain structure with some features of blindsight.

A telling point is that if the number five (for example associated with the colour green) is replaced with the Roman numeral V then no colour is associated and this suggests that synaesthesia is not culturally-learned; also, if association of colour to musical pitch is arbitrary then we might expect to see a change in colour or shade with a change in pitch.

Last edited by Arthur Stone; 30th May 2018 at 09:46 PM.. Reason: grammar
Old 30th May 2018
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratblue View Post
Can't we just make it go to 11?
...Well, as many others have previously observed:

There are 10 kinds of people:

Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
.
Old 30th May 2018
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Club Foot View Post
432 is a new age myth. The elites invented this religion for the simple minded.
Ahh yes. The Elites. Always mucking around with stuff.

"Mah dog has bad breath!"
"Hunh. Must be the goldarned Elites again!"

"Got a parking ticket yesterday."
"Damn Elites! Can't leave a feller alone!"
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Old 30th May 2018
  #369
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We humans are born with brains that just love to try to make sense of any damn thing it encounters (even if it doesn't really make any damn sense at all).

That's why we seem to always try to attach some kinda meaning to otherwise meaningless stuff.

We just can't help it.

And (for us) this little propensity is probably a damn good thing!

...I mean, if we did NOT have this propensity, our species would likely already be extinct!

It has served us well, in that "it is better to be safe than sorry".
.
Attached Thumbnails
Why don't we switch to 432Hz tuning?-ramones.jpg  

Last edited by 12ax7; 9th June 2018 at 09:08 PM..
Old 30th May 2018
  #370
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I don't see this as you do, AndreiPiatra, though I like very much the sensitivity of your descriptions. I also respect your willingness to stick your neck out.

I have a number of guitars. I tune "A" differently depending on how the guitar responds and, of course, how I respond to the guitar's sound.

I lean towards liking a half step lower than A440. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
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Old 31st May 2018
  #371
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Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
There have certainly been anecdotal reports of such sensitive individuals over recent decades.

The research, of course, has been limited in the US, but new studies seem to suggest genetic roots and that such 'psychosis' seems to be associated with a genetic proclivity to psychosis and/or schizophrenia. Recent research seems to be pointing toward specific chromosomes as both influencing sensitivity as well as mediating effects in those certain individuals. But, obviously, 'we' are at an early stage in this field of study.

https://www.nature.com/articles/mp2011187
There are many studies being released about the long term effects of cannabis use and more will follow. The problem is most cannabis users refuse to believe it's true because it takes years before it affects them. With casual use it would probably never happen but for chronic longtime users it's a reality they'll face sooner or later.

https://www.inverse.com/article/4022...ion-depression
Old 31st May 2018
  #372
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Man this thread has sooooo jumped the rails
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Old 31st May 2018
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64gtoboy View Post
Man this thread has sooooo jumped the rails
This thread jumped the rails as soon as the OP typed the "z" in "432Hz"...
Old 31st May 2018
  #374
Well, if we could get Anton La Vey and Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh on board with Lyndon LaDouche and autotune all their speeches to 432 I'd be like totally on board...
Old 31st May 2018
  #375
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"Why don't we switch to 432Hz tuning?"

No part of the production process - from writing through mastering and releasing will be slowed because of a different tuning. Most digital tuners can be set so that "A= whatever you desire".

But IME, tuning reference as far as how it "feels" has everything to do with the particular instrument at hand. Without an instrument, 432Hz or any "standard" for that matter has no context and is completely irrelevant.

I believe every instrument has a "sweet spot" and although manufacturers supposedly "try" to make 440Hz that spot, there are just too many variables to be able to really control the best natural "voicing" for an instrument in a "manufacturing" environment where inlays and shiny finish ultimately sell more end product. High-end drums tend to get this sort of attention to detail, but there are far less variables, as there is only 1 note per drum to deal with.

At the end of the day we are talking about either pitch, which is always entirely at our discretion and control or "voicing" which is not entirely in our control, but is to a certain degree. You can change the voicing by modifying the instrument or by changing the center reference point of its tuning. Two separate instruments will not necessarily enjoy the same reference point, even if the same make and model.

I'll add that trying to "force" a 432Hz reference point upon an instrument that is supposedly optimized to a 440Hz reference point is in my opinion, a shot in the dark at best. Will it sound "different"? - of course. Will the instrument actually resonate more "appropriately"? Possibly. Will it work the same way for every instrument - No way.

If you want to find "that thing", it starts with the chosen materials and how the instrument it is all put together - and even then you are at the mercy of where THE INSTRUMENT wants to "live".

More focus on instrument. Less focus on arbitrary, out-of-context standards. That's my take on it. YMMV.
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Old 31st May 2018
  #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkoftheEarth View Post
No part of the production process - from writing through mastering and releasing will be slowed because of a different tuning. Most digital tuners can be set so that "A= whatever you desire".

.
Assuming you are only using guitars, or virtual keyboards. The use of real pianos, organs etc will be enormously slowed. Indeed, the take will have to be moved up so the keyboard player can play against it,and the keyboard part then pitched shifted down.

I won't even go into the stability and intonation tendencies of brass and woodwind instruments when moved away from the pitch standard they were deigned to work optimally at.

One shouldn't assume that guitar players are the only likely musicians on a project.
Old 31st May 2018
  #377
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
There are many studies being released about the long term effects of cannabis use and more will follow. The problem is most cannabis users refuse to believe it's true because it takes years before it affects them. With casual use it would probably never happen but for chronic longtime users it's a reality they'll face sooner or later.

https://www.inverse.com/article/4022...ion-depression
Sorry -- the conclusion that "for chronic longtime users [psychosis] is a reality they'll face sooner or later" is not supported by that science. I read the pop science article and then looked over the actual study. It was a limited study derived from existing data that is limited in scope, as the write-up correctly noted. It was, to be sure, suggestive of neurobiological mechanisms that may be in play -- but in no way could such a pat conclusion be drawn from the data and analysis.

Here is the conclusion:
Quote:
Despite increased usage of cannabis worldwide, little is known about the neuropsychiatric effects of CA, especially in early-onset users. Here we show that resting-state connectivity of subcortical functional hubs, particularly within dopaminergic nuclei implicated in psychopathology, is greatly increased in individuals with CA. This pattern was exaggerated in individuals who began using in early adolescence and was associated with high levels of negative emotionality. Thus, subcortical functional connectivity may be a useful marker for tracking the development of psychopathology with prolonged CA.
With regard to the emotional component cited, they note this limitation of their study: "[I]t remains unknown whether emotional disturbance is directly caused by CA or if individuals use cannabis to self-medicate feelings of negative emotionality."

Ther term, CA, as used above by the authors refers to a diagnostic profile in the DSM-5.

Here are the symptoms listed in the DSM-5 for the disorder:
Quote:
Symptoms of Cannabis Use Disorder
According to the DSM-5, (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fifth edition) the criteria for Cannabis Use Disorder is as follows:

Use of cannabis for at least a one year period, with the presence of at least two of the following symptoms, accompanied by significant impairment of functioning and distress:
Difficulty containing use of cannabis- the drug is used in larger amounts and over a longer period than intended.
Repeated failed efforts to discontinue or reduce the amount of cannabis that is used
An inordinate amount of time is occupied acquiring, using, or recovering from the effects of cannabis.
Cravings or desires to use cannabis. This can include intrusive thoughts and images, and dreams about cannabis, or olfactory perceptions of the smell of cannabis, due to preoccupation with cannabis.
Continued use of cannabis despite adverse consequences from its use, such as criminal charges, ultimatums of abandonment from spouse/partner/friends, and poor productivity.
Other important activities in life, such as work, school, hygiene, and responsibility to family and friends are superseded by the desire to use cannabis.
Cannabis is used in contexts that are potentially dangerous, such as operating a motor vehicle.
Use of cannabis continues despite awareness of physical or psychological problems attributed to use- e.g., anergia, amotivation, chronic cough.
Tolerance to Cannabis, as defined by progressively larger amounts of cannabis are needed to obtain the psychoactive effect experienced when use first commenced, or, noticeably reduced effect of use of the same amount of cannabis
Withdrawal, defined as the typical withdrawal syndrome associate with cannabis, or cannabis or a similar substance is used to prevent withdrawal symptoms.


The status of the disorder can be further qualified as follows:

Early remission
Sustained remission
An additional specifier for the status of the disorder is:

In a Controlled Environment, e.g. a treatment facility or correctional facility where access to cannabis is limited.
The severity of the disorder is also noted, depending on the number of symptoms noted:

Mild – Two or Three Symptoms
Moderate- Four or five symptoms
Severe- Six or more symptoms (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).
https://www.theravive.com/therapedia...5.20%2C-304.30
Old 31st May 2018
  #378
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Mistaking correlation for causation is disturbingly common for all kinds of well-established reasons. This is still my favorite commentary on the subject:

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Old 31st May 2018
  #379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Mistaking correlation for causation is disturbingly common for all kinds of well-established reasons. This is still my favorite commentary on the subject:



____________



With regard to the cannabis study cited above, as well as other responsible research, I agree (with almost everybody) that more research is needed to study the potential benefits and risks involved with recreational and/or therapeutic use.

With regard to the practical import of the diagnostic profile of 'Cannabis Use Disorder' as described in the DSM-5 section quoted above, I would suggest that, as the manual lays it out, anyone who has used cannabis for "at least a one year period, with the presence of at least two of the`[listed] symptoms, accompanied by significant impairment of functioning and distress" should definitely re-evaluate their usage patterns.

But that's just common sense, isn't it?
Old 31st May 2018
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I would suggest that, as the manual lays it out, anyone who has used cannabis for "at least a one year period, with the presence of at least two of the`[listed] symptoms, accompanied by significant impairment of functioning and distress" should definitely re-evaluate their usage patterns.

But that's just common sense, isn't it?
Yeah that's more akin to allergies. Choose anything out there, super healthy or not, and x amount of people won't agree with it, some to the point of death.

The anti-weed stance on music forums is always an interesting one to me.
Old 31st May 2018
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Sorry -- the conclusion that "for chronic longtime users [psychosis] is a reality they'll face sooner or later" is not supported by that science. I read the pop science article and then looked over the actual study. It was a limited study derived from existing data that is limited in scope, as the write-up correctly noted. It was, to be sure, suggestive of neurobiological mechanisms that may be in play -- but in no way could such a pat conclusion be drawn from the data and analysis.

Here is the conclusion:


With regard to the emotional component cited, they note this limitation of their study: "[I]t remains unknown whether emotional disturbance is directly caused by CA or if individuals use cannabis to self-medicate feelings of negative emotionality."

Ther term, CA, as used above by the authors refers to a diagnostic profile in the DSM-5.

Here are the symptoms listed in the DSM-5 for the disorder:
https://www.theravive.com/therapedia...5.20%2C-304.30
Sorry, but I personally know people who developed psychosis over time and others who developed another side effect called Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome-something I'm guessing you knew nothing about. Since cannabis was illegal for so long most studies were being done outside of North America and they mostly focused on the positive effects of the plant, but as you and others will find out in the coming years, it isn't as safe as you might think it is. I'm all for casual, responsible use, but chronic use is a serious risk.
Old 31st May 2018
  #382
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
Sorry, but I personally know people who developed psychosis over time and others who developed another side effect called Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome-something I'm guessing you knew nothing about. Since cannabis was illegal for so long most studies were being done outside of North America and they mostly focused on the positive effects of the plant, but as you and others will find out in the coming years, it isn't as safe as you might think it is. I'm all for casual, responsible use, but chronic use is a serious risk.
You seem to make a lot of unwarranted presumptions about what I believe -- presumptions for which you have no basis -- and which are not accurate.

You didn't read what I wrote, apparently. I'm talking about the science.

After introducing that topic of that study, which you don't seem to have, yourself, really looked over and absorbed, you now are citing personal, anecdotal evidence as though it was some sort of valid scientifically derived evidence.

It is not.


With re Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome -- you seem to be jumping around quite a bit as you seem to try to cherry-pick some good bon mot retorts.

Like many folks I read about it ['CHS'] for the first time recently -- although it is safe to say that among my largely educated, involved social cohort there have been and are many frequent users.

Most of my associates were rather incredulous about the existence of such a syndrome, as I was. But it appears to be a recognized clinical profile (it was first described in 2004), if quite rare (there is no epidemiological data listed on the page linked on the NIH page linked below), and, of course, it might well be misdiagnosed as, for instance, Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome -- and vice-versa. There is no known mechanism of causation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576702/

There is an anecdotal second party account of an apparent victim of the syndrome in this explainer from Leafly, a cannabis-centric publication: https://www.leafly.com/news/health/w...mesis-syndrome. While there are no known causative mechanisms, the article suggests there are some promising avenues of investigation.


All that said, other researchers remain pointedly skeptical about the 2004 study and its conclusions:
Quote:
Cannabis has been consumed for many centuries and is currently used by millions of people in many countries. It is hard to believe that a distinctive syndrome caused by cannabis has never been noted before by users or clinicians.
[...]
The title of the paper, “Cannabinoid hyperemesis” is unduly presumptive. Some of these cases appeared to improve with abstinence and then relapsed when patients were “rechallenged” with cannabis, but neither the patients nor the authors appear to have been blinded in the rechallenge. The proposed biological explanation is weak.

We suggest that alternative explanations need to be sought for these cases. This syndrome should not be accepted as being caused by cannabis without additional reports and other evidence.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1856368/
Old 31st May 2018
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
Sorry, but I personally know people who developed psychosis over time and others who developed another side effect called Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome-something I'm guessing you knew nothing about. Since cannabis was illegal for so long most studies were being done outside of North America and they mostly focused on the positive effects of the plant, but as you and others will find out in the coming years, it isn't as safe as you might think it is. I'm all for casual, responsible use, but chronic use is a serious risk.
I know what CHS is...it's not a side effect, it's technically a clinical condition.

Like anything, weed ain't for everybody, and if anyone develops Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome, that would be an obvious tell tale sign. But, that doesn't mean that all chronic users will suffer from that condition. Not by a long shot.

Same with psychosis - there is a set percentage of the population that possibly have a predisposition for it, and AFAIK, there's conjecture whether it's absolutely a genetic component or whether environmental factors weigh in. There's still conjecture on how much weed affects that (though there does seem to be clinical evidence that abuse at early ages can have serious deleterious effects for those with such predispositions)

Ultimately, whether it be pot or booze, or anything, its usage should be up to the prerogative of the individual...sure, as much objective info should be available and accessible, but it's up to each person to be wise about it. Judiciousness and mindfulness can't be dictated, unless we want to live in a draconian or nanny state.

I hate to think we should be in a society where we can't make decisions on our own, however stupid or harmful it may be. (though I am in favor of consumer protection bureaus, and oversight of corporate entities, etc - things like that, as well as civil liberties unions and govt watchdog agencies).
Old 31st May 2018
  #384
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
The rationality behind 432 has to do with the convenience of whole Hz numbers though. Which is an arbitrary human construct and a non-constant universal construct, and has to do with human laziness...
I have a weekly live-broadcast gig that often puts me in the same room with 432 people, and it seems to me that they've all latched onto the idea because they were really baked at the moment some Namaste Dude at a retreat in Sedona or Ojai said that 432 was the sh!t. They have all, with one exception, been hard to take seriously.

The one exception:

http://studio-noho.net/Earth_Wake_Cosmos.mp3

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 31st May 2018 at 07:04 PM..
Old 31st May 2018
  #385
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Maybe we should all just re-tune to 420.

...Then we can ALL just go insane (but have something upon which to blame our insanity).
.
Old 31st May 2018
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Maybe we should all just re-tune to 420.

...Then we can ALL just go insane (but have something upon which to blame our insanity).
.
Insane and constipated...
Old 31st May 2018
  #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Insane and constipated...
Old 31st May 2018
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Maybe we should all just re-tune to 420.

...Then we can ALL just go insane (but have something upon which to blame our insanity).
.
If you add up 4+3+2. . . and then add in another "3" because of its universal philosophical and religious significance. . . you end up with 12.

If you then subtract that from 432, you get 420.

This CLEARLY makes 420 the most harmonious frequncy to tune A to, by all reasonable logic.
Old 31st May 2018
  #389
jrl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
If you add up 4+3+2. . . and then add in another "3" because of its universal philosophical and religious significance. . . you end up with 12.

If you then subtract that from 432, you get 420.

This CLEARLY makes 420 the most harmonious frequncy to tune A to, by all reasonable logic.
Man, you are close, but your math is off. 4+3+2 does indeed equal 12. But you have to split it in two (reflective proprty) to get 6. Then write it three times so it comes out 666.

As a proof, use the reflective property again, 432 + 234 = 666.

So there you have it. 432 is the devil!
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Old 31st May 2018
  #390
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
If you add up 4+3+2. . . and then add in another "3" because of its universal philosophical and religious significance. . . you end up with 12.

If you then subtract that from 432, you get 420.

This CLEARLY makes 420 the most harmonious frequncy to tune A to, by all reasonable logic.
Come to think of it...

...How the hell did "A" get to be some kinda "magic starting pitch"?

Why not (for instance) Ѫ=440 (or whatever)?
.
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