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Women don't write songs, and it's the fault of men: Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 20th February 2018
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Women don't write songs, and it's the fault of men:

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Old 20th February 2018
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Old 20th February 2018
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About 95% of workmen's compensation cases (injuries, maiming, and deaths) are suffered by men. One trusts that women will be lobbying to have those numbers soon reflect 'gender diversity;' likewise the school teaching professions.
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Old 20th February 2018
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I don't know why, the "fault of men" is quite the leap. There are 10000s of dudes here on gearslutz pushing each other to improve their songwriting and production etc etc and almost no girls, even though its wide open to anyone and everyone, girls fully welcome.

If they're not here or anywhere else they can voluntarily jump into the conversation, share, and learn . . why would they be at the top? For whatever reason, girls just aren't that interested at the base level "i have a passion I cannot ignore and must dive into" place. If they had that, they'd be all over the net and in music cirlcles where the conversations take place. They're simply not there for the most part.
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Old 20th February 2018
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@newguy1 I'm one of few women here but the genre I'm into gets no love here w/a few exceptions and I came here for the base level reason you stated.
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Old 20th February 2018
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Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@newguy1 I'm one of few women here but the genre I'm into gets no love here w/a few exceptions and I came here for the base level reason you stated.
I know! Why are you so rare? That's where the answer to this question lies. If girls aren't in the trenches in mass like you (and all the guys), they certainly won't be at the top.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #7
Gear doesn't kill people.
 

I'm personally worried about the lack of gender diversity in sanitation and waste management. Over 99% men! We need to fix this!
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Old 21st February 2018
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Funny but more women buy recordings then men these days. Maybe women happen to like the way men write about them.
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Old 21st February 2018
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Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
Funny but more women buy recordings then men these days. Maybe women happen to like the way men write about them.
This seems to be the central issue. It was Romeo who sang to Juliet and somehow I doubt it would work the other way around. Gender equality is lunacy when when pushed too far. Men and women are different, praise the Lord, and still are despite the ongoing attempts of schools and industry to create an homogeneous market.
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Old 21st February 2018
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@PeteGJ I'd find it awesome if Juliet sang to Romeo as courtship is about mutual feelings, right? I believe wholeheartedly in gender equality from a social perspective as men and women are to be equal and not enemies plus I hate oppressive double standards.
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Old 21st February 2018
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Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@PeteGJ I'd find it awesome if Juliet sang to Romeo as courtship is about mutual feelings, right? I believe wholeheartedly in gender equality from a social perspective as men and women are to be equal and not enemies plus I hate oppressive double standards.
By all means. . MORE GIRLS IN MUSIC! Who doesn't want more girls??

They just don't really care in my experience. 95% of girls in music that I encounter just want to be singers. Entirely dependent singers at that (IE they can't even record and produce their own vocals, much less even a rough sketch of a song.)

Don't know why, just know what is. I don't think its from being held down in any way either, they can buy a 2nd hand computer and steal all the software and teach themselves same as all the aspiring guys, there are zero obstacles here to differentiate girls from guys, its a self-start DIY world where the final product speaks for itself with the hit of the "play" button. Competitive aspiring female producers simply are not there outside the very occasional outlier. Meanwhile 10 million guys around the world are constantly competing to outdo each other in the production/engineering/songwriting world. .
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Old 21st February 2018
  #12
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I don't know why, the "fault of men" is quite the leap. There are 10000s of dudes here on gearslutz pushing each other to improve their songwriting and production etc etc and almost no girls, even though its wide open to anyone and everyone, girls fully welcome.

If they're not here or anywhere else they can voluntarily jump into the conversation, share, and learn . . why would they be at the top? For whatever reason, girls just aren't that interested at the base level "i have a passion I cannot ignore and must dive into" place. If they had that, they'd be all over the net and in music cirlcles where the conversations take place. They're simply not there for the most part.
Starting out in the biz at the end of the 70s, I quickly noticed the preponderance of males not just in studios I was in but in the community colleges where I took classes in engineering and production. Of course, child of the 50s and 60s, I was 'used' to that preponderance in non-office and tech workplaces.

Still, it had me thinking about the different ways that boys and girls grow up in our culture. Each generation raises the next and change comes slow, and sometimes it really is two steps back with only one step forward.

But I was fortunate enough to work with a number of women along the way, not just as artists, but in other creative and technical roles, including engineering and production, and following their travails first and second hand gave me an appreciation for just how much tougher than the average man a woman has to be to get ahead in this business. Many of them had a good ear, a quick technical grasp, and frequently had the tricky people skills to run a tight session without stepping on people's toes -- skills that become even more important for a woman in a 'man's world.'

With regard to the business, I'm afraid it's largely the familiar issue of 'invisible privilege.'

It often seems invisible to those who share membership in the privileged class, but it's very often far from invisible to those outside the favored group.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #13
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I'm definintely sympathetic to and aware of hidden privilege. Just in my own experience that's not what's going on in this case, at least not within the first several layers of digging into it. Its almost entirely a DIY world for a decade+ now, the "system" has crumbled. This century: Make music on your own, if its high quality and relevant you're in. Its a "hit play, do I like it" world the past 10-20 years. My and most other's entire careers have been "make music on my own, send out to labels with "do you like?" Cross fingers!"

I've met a handful of aspiring female producers along the way but none of them really pass the "hit play" test. They're not being held down, the product simply tends to be inferior. If there's a societal issue at play its a deeeeeeeep one that's affecting girls loooooong before the age of being able to choose to aspire to be a music producer is made.

A girl recently could produce vocals quite well. It was amazing, she really made the process easier, more creative and freeflow for me. I'd love for more of her to be out there.
Old 21st February 2018
  #14
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The entire view of a perceived "fairness" in career, the industry, life....is a fallacy, a construct that requires a blame object.

However, objectively speaking, men get screwed in the music business all day long, every day, its nothing personal. You can control DOING art, you cannot control anything about the listeners, or the commerce. People either like it or not. There is no court of "musical judgement", and thus no ability to judge "fairness".

The truth is, one does art because it pleases you. That's what you get, that's it.

And that's enough for many people, men included, and they aren't checking a bank statement or residual percentage based on their gender to decide whether that satisfies themselves. It is a mistake to expect ANY objective treatment in entertainment, it's up to fate, no matter if you're a female or a male.

Any female (or male) does themselves a disservice if they look through the small, hollow, and distorted prism of the monetization of music (chart ratings, revenue earned), and base their perspective on how they are represented there. It just has very little to do with the real reason, and thus "truth" of music/art, and is really about "money".
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Old 21st February 2018
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Originally Posted by PeteGJ View Post
This seems to be the central issue. It was Romeo who sang to Juliet and somehow I doubt it would work the other way around. Gender equality is lunacy when when pushed too far. Men and women are different, praise the Lord, and still are despite the ongoing attempts of schools and industry to create an homogeneous market.
Men and women are different.

I'm a man. I'm assuming from your name that you, too, are a man. I'm straight, and, odds are, numerically speaking, that so are you. Let's proceed on that assumption.

Under that scenario, the assumption is that we are both in the same sex and have the same gender preferences.

Yet I guarantee you that you and I are very different.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #16
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I'm definintely sympathetic to and aware of hidden privilege. Just in my own experience that's not what's going on. Its almost entirely a DIY world for a decade+ now, the "system" has crumbled. This century: Make music on your own, if its high quality and relevant you're in. Its a "hit play, do I like it" world the past 10-20 years. My and most other's entire careers have been "make music on my own, send out to labels with "do you like?""

I've met a handful of aspiring female producers along the way but none of them pass the "hit play" test. They're not being held down, the product simply tends to be inferior. If there's a societal issue at play its a deeeeeeeep one that's affecting girls loooooong before the age of being able to choose to aspire to be a music producer is made.
Well, I certainly observed it (and not a little) in my own experience. But I've effectively been out of the business for more than a decade. Maybe things have changed. But, judging from the existence of this discussion and the nature of the greater public discourse, it appears that the problems I observed have not really gone far away.
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Old 21st February 2018
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Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Well, I certainly observed it (and not a little) in my own experience. But I've effectively been out of the business for more than a decade. Maybe things have changed. But, judging from the existence of this discussion and the nature of the greater public discourse, it appears that the problems I observed have not really gone far away.
Either society is holding them back or there's a more natural disinterest at play. Good ol nature vs nurture. No idea really. I mostly encounter complete and total disinterest outside of singing (and maybe guitar and/or piano proficiency) in my musical work with girls though, I know that much, having worked with 100s of them at this point.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #18
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Originally Posted by latweek View Post
The entire view of a perceived "fairness" in career, the industry, life....is a fallacy, a construct that requires a blame object.

However, objectively speaking, men get screwed in the music business all day long, every day, its nothing personal. You can control DOING art, you cannot control anything about the listeners, or the commerce. People either like it or not. There is no court of "musical judgement", and thus no ability to judge "fairness".

The truth is, one does art because it pleases you. That's what you get, that's it.

And that's enough for many people, men included, and they aren't checking a bank statement or residual percentage based on their gender to decide whether that satisfies themselves. It is a mistake to expect ANY objective treatment in entertainment, it's up to fate, no matter if you're a female or a male.
I think this head, down, push forward attitude is the way forward -- for anyone in a tough, competitive business. Life is not 'fair' and a realistic person works with the reality with which he (or she ) is faced, even when it is wildly 'unfair.'

But, while life may not be fair, members of society -- or most of them -- have made a tacit agreement to try to treat each other equitably and ethically.

Life will never be fair, people will never be perfect.

But some of us want to strive to be better, and to make life in contemporary human society more equitable, more ethical -- more fair.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #19
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Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@PeteGJ I'd find it awesome if Juliet sang to Romeo as courtship is about mutual feelings, right? I believe wholeheartedly in gender equality from a social perspective as men and women are to be equal and not enemies plus I hate oppressive double standards.
Yes, I would very much like it if Juiliet sang to me. Or to another Juiliet. Romeo sings to me on occasion and that’s flattering as well.
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Old 21st February 2018
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Either society is holding them back or their's a more natural disinterest at play. Good ol nature vs nurture. No idea really. I mostly encounter complete and total disinterest outside of singing (and maybe guitar and/or piano proficiency) in my musical work with girls though, I know that much.
I think these are important questions and considerations. There is no question that there are biological differences between men and women -- though the nature of the effects on behavior can be vexingly difficult to pin down.

I think, in this discussion, it may prove helpful to separate 'society' from 'culture.'

In that light, I'd suggest that society, in a very loose sense, can represent the conscious superego of humanity, with its ongoing, conflicted, 'internal' discussion of what is and what should be.

By flipside token, culture, the passing of attitudes and values through family, friends, social connections can be seen (again, loosely speaking) almost as the subconscious, the id, the urges, the revulsions, the reactions.


But what of the purely biological? The differences in biology, of endocrine response, physical attributes are profound. In terms of physical 'design,' men and women are very different.

Yet, when we take a closer look, we see incredible differentiation within the broad sexual classifications -- and even within the subclassifications.

The practical variegation within sexes essentially represents areas of overlap in behavior and attitude that makes predicting that behavior and attitude based solely on biology much more difficult than might be expected if the behaviors and attitudes of men and women were as uniform within the sexes as some in society suggest.

(That said, how many women are the principal actors in mass killings? THAT is one stark statistical difference. And some. But, even there, we can't automatically attribute the entire cause to biology, I don't think. For instance, why don't more 'first world' men outside the US engage in mass killings? If it was entirely biological, the behavior would be more universal. It's all worth study, but probably not directly pertinent to this particular discussion. Let's hope.)
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Old 21st February 2018
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Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I think these are important questions and considerations. There is no question that there are biological differences between men and women -- though the nature of the effects on behavior can be vexingly difficult to pin down.

I think, in this discussion, it may prove helpful to separate 'society' from 'culture.'

In that light, I'd suggest that society, in a very loose sense, can represent the conscious superego of humanity, with its ongoing, conflicted, 'internal' discussion of what is and what should be.

By flipside token, culture, the passing of attitudes and values through family, friends, social connections can be seen (again, loosely speaking) almost as the subconscious, the id, the urges, the revulsions, the reactions.


But what of the purely biological? The differences in biology, of endocrine response, physical attributes are profound. In terms of physical 'design,' men and women are very different.

Yet, when we take a closer look, we see incredible differentiation within the broad sexual classifications -- and even within the subclassifications.

The practical variegation within sexes essentially represents areas of overlap in behavior and attitude that makes predicting that behavior and attitude based solely on biology much more difficult than might be expected if the behaviors and attitudes of men and women were as uniform within the sexes as some in society suggest.

(That said, how many women are the principal actors in mass killings? THAT is one stark statistical difference. And some. But, even there, we can't automatically attribute the entire cause to biology, I don't think. For instance, why don't more 'first world' men outside the US engage in mass killings? If it was entirely biological, the behavior would be more universal. It's all worth study, but probably not directly pertinent to this particular discussion. Let's hope.)
Yeah nature vs nurture gets tricky. At the theoretical level it gets deep and complicated, a rope full of knots.

In practice though, it seems most want to choose whatever is most in their favor in the nature vs nurture debate. Gays want it to be nature in their case (helps their fight for equality to be natural), where in this case girls want it to be nurture (helps their fight for equality to put it on culture), for example. Not PC to say but true. If I were in either of these demographics I'd be doing the same though, always stack your deck! Good ol' human nature
Old 21st February 2018
  #22
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Either society is holding them back or there's a more natural disinterest at play. Good ol nature vs nurture. No idea really. I mostly encounter complete and total disinterest outside of singing (and maybe guitar and/or piano proficiency) in my musical work with girls though, I know that much, having worked with 100s of them at this point.
It's predilection. As Damore's excellent memo pointed out, before he was crucified for having the "wrong" opinion, despite being far better sourced and cited than most professional journalism articles!
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Old 21st February 2018
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Yeah nature vs nurture gets tricky. At the theoretical level it gets deep and complicated, a rope full of knots.

In practice though, it seems most want to choose whatever is most in their favor in the nature vs nurture debate. Gays want it to be nature in their case (helps their fight for equality to be natural), where in this case girls want it to be nurture (helps their fight for equality to put it on culture), for example. Not PC to say but true. If I were in either of these demographics I'd be doing the same though, always stack your deck! Good ol' human nature
True of some but not of all. But certainly a valuable general observation of human behavior. People tend to argue what they feel their strong points are.

Still, stepping back from the fray of policy debates, it probably quickly becomes obvious to many or most that there is plenty of gray area shading the topic.


Human nature is a... tough one.
Old 21st February 2018
  #24
Gear doesn't kill people.
 

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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Yeah nature vs nurture gets tricky. At the theoretical level it gets deep and complicated, a rope full of knots.

In practice though, it seems most want to choose whatever is most in their favor in the nature vs nurture debate. Gays want it to be nature in their case (helps their fight for equality to be natural), where in this case girls want it to be nurture (helps their fight for equality to put it on culture), for example. Not PC to say but true. If I were in either of these demographics I'd be doing the same though, always stack your deck! Good ol' human nature
Yeah but then the same demographic wants gender to just be a social construct! It's hilarious!

Hmmm, wonder how social constructs develop in the first place... it's turtles all the way down!!!
Old 21st February 2018
  #25
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Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
Yeah but then the same demographic wants gender to just be a social construct! It's hilarious!

Hmmm, wonder how social constructs develop in the first place... it's turtles all the way down!!!
STACK THAT DECK till you're checked hard enough to have to pull back. That's what everyone on all sides is constantly doing. Simple as that.

Which means there probably is some degree of holding women back at play. Not sure how though, the music field is as wide open to anyone and everyone as it gets. 2nd hand laptop + stolen software* + cool artist or producer name and you can compete with the most major of major players for $500ish, just produce a work that resonates when you simply hit "play."

* Not recommending or endorsing this, i'm making a real world observation not a recommendation.

Last edited by newguy1; 21st February 2018 at 07:52 PM.. Reason: *
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Old 21st February 2018
  #26
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@theblue1 I wanna know what you observed.
Old 21st February 2018
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@theblue1 I wanna know what you observed.
Should I start at the beginning? I've heard it suggested that I can be a bit long-winded...
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Old 21st February 2018
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@theblue1 yes the beginning. I get that same critique offline from family.
Old 21st February 2018
  #29
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
There are 10000s of dudes here on gearslutz pushing each other to improve their songwriting and production etc etc and almost no girls, even though its wide open to anyone and everyone, girls fully welcome.

As regards this forum, I doubt that all girls and women feel quite as welcome on a forum with 'slutz' in its name. I have always thought that to be limiting about gearslutz. Would gear-effers or gear -****suckers be equally attractive?
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Old 21st February 2018
  #30
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Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@theblue1 yes the beginning. I get that same critique offline from family.
I may be confused... by 'that critique' do you mean my acknowledgement that humans tend to argue from their strong points -- and perhaps even lean on the framework of the argument at times to get things to fit?

I wasn't suggesting that that's an attribute limited or even concentrated in either of the sexes (or their many subcategories), in case you were thinking I was. I'm just fairly realistic about people (including myself, at least at times) and their very human tendencies.
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