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Women don't write songs, and it's the fault of men: Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 21st February 2018
  #31
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Originally Posted by razorboy View Post
As regards this forum, I doubt that all girls and women feel quite as welcome on a forum with 'slutz' in its name. I have always thought that to be limiting about gearslutz. Would gear-effers or gear -****suckers be equally attractive?
I think the 'problem' here is thinking that 'slut' necessarily refers to one sex or the other. But, yeah, it's a touchy word for a number of usage associations. Still, I always assumed its usage here was light-hearted and self-deprecatory, FWIW.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #32
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
I hesitate to wade into a discussion which is already covering too much familiar territory. I would like to thank @theblue1 for awareness of what is a systemic issue that is far from unique to the music business and isn’t going to be solved overnight. There’s a lot rooted in socialization, education, and assumptions about one another that I don’t expect the music industry alone to tackle - but it never hurts for individuals to take the time to educate themselves and demonstrate a little mutual understanding.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #33
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boombapdame's Avatar
@theblue1 the long winded critique is what I have gotten and/or get.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #34
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@theblue1 when I signed up here I found the forum name humorous, 'cause the original definition of slut wasn't aimed at women, but, per Chaucer, men who were untidy.
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Old 21st February 2018
  #35
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Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@theblue1 when I signed up here I found the forum name humorous, 'cause the original definition of slut wasn't aimed at women, but, per Chaucer, men who were untidy.
See, now, THAT's why you gotta love this place! Where else would someone ref Chaucer when talking about audio gear. (Even if it is a forced reference. )

And, of course, from my (not unlimited) experience, I'm certainly not the only untidy male in [or once in] the studio game.
Old 21st February 2018
  #36
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Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I think the 'problem' here is thinking that 'slut' necessarily refers to one sex or the other.
Slut's what jealous people call those who get some.


When a straight man says it its code for "she has sex with everyone except ME!"

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Old 21st February 2018
  #37
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Slut's what jealous people call those who get some.


When a straight man says it its code for "she has sex with everyone except ME!"

Old 21st February 2018
  #38
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Chicks want the fame, they just don't want to do the work. Why do you think so many are willing to go the casting couch route to get their coveted fame and riches? They want to be popular, and rich, and adored by all and not have to work.

That being said there are outliers. I stumbled onto a 16 year old girl with a fire for songwriting and producing like I've never seen and I've been mentoring her for a few months and she honestly is scary. I've actually been taking her around to the bigger sessions I play on and introducing her to name people to help get her noticed. She soaks up knowledge like a sponge and her mixes after a few months her mixes are already on par with half the stuff out there. I'm convinced this young girl is not of this earth. She'll work next to me for 16 hours straight and still be ready to go two days more without stopping. I think with guys the "in the trench work" seems like something cool to do so they do it whereas with girls it's more "I wanna be a star" and that's it. But you get the 1 in a 500,000 like the girl I'm mentoring who has a legitimate drive to succeed and dominate and a genuine interest and love for the field.


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Old 22nd February 2018
  #39
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Pale Pyramid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorboy View Post
As regards this forum, I doubt that all girls and women feel quite as welcome on a forum with 'slutz' in its name. I have always thought that to be limiting about gearslutz. Would gear-effers or gear -****suckers be equally attractive?
I have thought this too. Also there is a level of testosterone present here. Especially when we argue. And weeeeeee argue in nearly every thread

It makes me uncomfortable or bored or both. I could see how we encourage women in audio to not participate. At the same time asking men to practice a stricter decorum or a less locker room like decorum would also be restricting a fair amount of the men on the forum.
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Old 22nd February 2018
  #40
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Pale Pyramid's Avatar
I get the joke though. Jules strikes me as a person who was having a light tongue and cheek moment.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@theblue1 when I signed up here I found the forum name humorous, 'cause the original definition of slut wasn't aimed at women, but, per Chaucer, men who were untidy.
Ha! that's funny. I feel as if you may be the only person who ever thought of Chaucer when encountering the forum. I like where your mind goes.
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Old 22nd February 2018
  #42
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Pale Pyramid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Chicks want the fame, they just don't want to do the work. Why do you think so many are willing to go the casting couch route to get their coveted fame and riches? They want to be popular, and rich, and adored by all and not have to work.

That being said there are outliers. I stumbled onto a 16 year old girl with a fire for songwriting and producing like I've never seen and I've been mentoring her for a few months and she honestly is scary. I've actually been taking her around to the bigger sessions I play on and introducing her to name people to help get her noticed. She soaks up knowledge like a sponge and her mixes after a few months her mixes are already on par with half the stuff out there. I'm convinced this young girl is not of this earth. She'll work next to me for 16 hours straight and still be ready to go two days more without stopping. I think with guys the "in the trench work" seems like something cool to do so they do it whereas with girls it's more "I wanna be a star" and that's it. But you get the 1 in a 500,000 like the girl I'm mentoring who has a legitimate drive to succeed and dominate and a genuine interest and love for the field.


My thinking is this says more about a certain type of person. Perhaps not the most intelligent person who lives in their ego. They want to be famous. singing or acting seems like an avenue to wander down. And they happen to be female. You are certainly going to see more of these characters in the entertainment biz.
And then (the outlier as you say) the women you are working with is an intelligent person who is in it for the "right" reasons. Perhaps other less ego centric females who are intelligent sensibly see music as a lot of hard work for little to nothing in way of reward. Many self less males of similar intelligence do the same.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Pyramid View Post
My thinking is this says more about a certain type of person. Perhaps not the most intelligent person who lives in their ego. They want to be famous. singing or acting seems like an avenue to wander down. And they happen to be female. You are certainly going to see more of these characters in the entertainment biz.
And then (the outlier as you say) the women you are working with is an intelligent person who is in it for the "right" reasons. Perhaps other less ego centric females who are intelligent sensibly see music as a lot of hard work for little to nothing in way of reward. Many self less males of similar intelligence do the same.
Yeah I don't like jumping to that degree of conclusion either. Too much at play to know, lots of perhaps here. I know "what is," hard to know the "why" though.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #44
I suspect the last turn of the conversation reveals a 'hidden' dynamic: the music biz has traditionally treated young, beautiful 'talent' who manifest a willingness to be 'molded' and shaped into someone else's idea of the perfect pop star as a sort of industry raw material. Other potential signees, perhaps with considerably more talent but ideas of their own about who they are and what kind of artist they want to be, are often considered too difficult to form into a finished, marketable product.

The latter group are on the familiar rough road of repeated rejection, hard knocks, and long hours in roadhouses, dinky clubs, and on the road -- while the former group have their own pressures and disappointments along the way (there are, of course, VERY few successful pop stars), these too-beautiful-to-set-free wouldbe artists [not all of them female, of course] are often strung along for various reasons -- and sordid, exploitative reasons are high among them, as the #MeToo movement has reminded us. =/
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Old 22nd February 2018
  #45
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Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
(there are, of course, VERY few successful pop stars), these too-beautiful-to-set-free wouldbe artists [not all of them female, of course] are often strung along for various reasons -- and sordid, exploitative reasons are high among them, as the
This is def the toughest challenge in music. The generic "I'm a good singer, I want to sing."

There's not much of a natural or organic small scene for aspiring singers. There aren't crowds of people clamouring to hear up-and-coming pop singers anywhere (outside the spectacle of TV talent shows which is something else entirely). They're entirely dependent on being spotted as being talented by someone with resources and then dependent on being put with the right producers (and those producers being on point during the limited time they have access to them), who are the actual artist-minded type with the vision in the equation.

Where with hip hop and dance and rock etc etc there's a huge audience for the up-and-coming, and low-mid level acts can tour existing circuits and tap into an audience to gain experience and build themselves up.

Female vocalst is the last place I'd put my money in the biz. The "get lots of features" game doesn't lead to anything at all, tried and tested by 100s of girls that, even after features on big records have nothing to actually stand on (which is the closest thing to a smaller scene opportunity singer-onlys get), so its down to a crap shoot, massive Top 40 presence or die. Terrible odds.
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Old 22nd February 2018
  #46
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Pale Pyramid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Yeah I don't like jumping to that degree of conclusion either. Too much at play to know, lots of perhaps here. I know "what is," hard to know the "why" though.
You know, I am making a lot of assumptions. Thanks for saying so. Not being snarky at all. Truly mean that.
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Old 22nd February 2018
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Pyramid View Post
You know, I am making a lot of assumptions. Thanks for saying so. Not being snarky at all. Truly mean that.
Easy to do. You had toned down one set of suppositions big time though, its just really hard to be accurate with stuff like this in any direction imo. .
Old 22nd February 2018
  #48
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Why does each little thing one can do in this life HAVE to have equal amounts of men and women doing it anyway?? It's ludicrous. I mean, we ARE different after all......

Seems to me this is just another herring thrown into the crowd so we start 'discussing' it and tear pieces out of each other over it. More stirring divide and conquer nonsense, like we haven't got enough of that all over. I vote ignore the nonsense.
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Old 22nd February 2018
  #49
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

Still, it had me thinking about the different ways that boys and girls grow up in our culture.


It should also get you thinking about the innate differences between men and women. The liberal understanding these days is that the only differences are regarding sex organs and the like, and that there are no mental differences of any kind.

The biggest difference, IMO, is the presence of the hormone testosterone.
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Old 23rd February 2018
  #50
Gear Addict
 

It's no surprise to me that there aren't more women interested in the technical side of music: producing, engineering, mixing, etc. But writing? Pouring your emotions into a song about love, relationships and your last break-up? No Taylor Swift worshipping young girls are into it? I'm really surprised by that.
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Old 23rd February 2018
  #51
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Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Why does each little thing one can do in this life HAVE to have equal amounts of men and women doing it anyway?? It's ludicrous. I mean, we ARE different after all......

Seems to me this is just another herring thrown into the crowd so we start 'discussing' it and tear pieces out of each other over it. More stirring divide and conquer nonsense, like we haven't got enough of that all over. I vote ignore the nonsense.
You get my vote. I'm not sure what problem we're trying to solve.
Old 23rd February 2018
  #52
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probably because most woman don't spend a lot of time obsessing over writing songs pandering to teenage girls. and the industry has little use for that. thankfully though, in spite of that they tend end up writing a lot of the better stuff. just that most people will never find it. and which paradoxically, might end up actually being a good thing.
Old 23rd February 2018
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorboy View Post
It should also get you thinking about the innate differences between men and women. The liberal understanding these days is that the only differences are regarding sex organs and the like, and that there are no mental differences of any kind.

The biggest difference, IMO, is the presence of the hormone testosterone.
I believe you're profoundly mischaracterizing that 'liberal understanding.'

What you suggest is almost the opposite of liberal thought: liberals tend to embrace empirical understanding and science underlines not just important general differences between sexes but also broad variegation within the sexes.

Liberal thought attempts to acknowledge that broad range of human nature and experience and the liberal approach to society is one intended to deliver the most freedom and tolerance for those differences.

Liberals acknowledge the very real differences between people -- they just tend to want a society that doesn't force individuals into roles for which they may not be suited, instead desiring the maximum freedom for individualization.

The idea is not that everyone is the same, they clearly are not, nor can they ever be the same. And it's doubtful that many -- or any -- true liberals would want such an outcome. The idea is that government should attempt to treat all individuals equally and equitably.

(Where modern progressives diverge from classic liberalism is in their notion that socioeconomic realities can create interlocking economic and governmental systems where broad segments of society find their range of possibility hobbled by those stubborn realities. Progressives, it might be said, want to take a more proactive approach to addressing inequities that see fruits of the efforts of the many largely ending up in the pockets of the few.)
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Old 23rd February 2018
  #54
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@theblue1 I'd rather be too difficult to form than too easy to mold.
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Old 23rd February 2018
  #55
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Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I believe you're profoundly mischaracterizing that 'liberal understanding.'

What you suggest is almost the opposite of liberal thought: liberals tend to embrace empirical understanding and science underlines not just important general differences between sexes but also broad variegation within the sexes.

Liberal thought attempts to acknowledge that broad range of human nature and experience and the liberal approach to society is one intended to deliver the most freedom and tolerance for those differences.

Liberals acknowledge the very real differences between people -- they just tend to want a society that doesn't force individuals into roles for which they may not be suited, instead desiring the maximum freedom for individualization.

The idea is not that everyone is the same, they clearly are not, nor can they ever be the same. And it's doubtful that many -- or any -- true liberals would want such an outcome. The idea is that government should attempt to treat all individuals equally and equitably.

(Where modern progressives diverge from classic liberalism is in their notion that socioeconomic realities can create interlocking economic and governmental systems where broad segments of society find their range of possibility hobbled by those stubborn realities. Progressives, it might be said, want to take a more proactive approach to addressing inequities that see fruits of the efforts of the many largely ending up in the pockets of the few.)
Yes, there's actual liberalism, and then there's the liberal boogie man/straw man, which has been fabricated by zooming in on and cherry picking the worse traits of various extremes, combining them all up into one massive over-the-top generalization, and then putting this insane generalized combination of extremes onto everyone who calls themselves liberal in a blunt and thoughtless "us vs them, they're the enemy" manner.

Goes on in the other direction too though. .
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Old 23rd February 2018
  #56
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On the local pop station in my area, 80% of songs are sung by women. Woman are very represented in the top performing ranks of pop and are not generally hurting for money. Men less so. So why isn't any social do-gooder complaining about the plight of men not getting equal airtime on female dominated pop stations?
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Old 23rd February 2018
  #57
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@ionian as a woman I'm not offended by what you alluded to regarding chicks who want the fame but don't wanna work as they are the ones who take the casting couch route, I salute anyone, male or female, willing to work with the women who are like the outlier you mentioned.
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Old 23rd February 2018
  #58
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Yes, there's actual liberalism, and then there's the liberal boogie man/straw man, which has been fabricated by zooming in on and cherry picking the worse traits of various extremes, combining them all up into one massive over-the-top generalization, and then putting this insane generalized combination of extremes onto everyone who calls themselves liberal in a blunt and thoughtless "us vs them, they're the enemy" manner.

Goes on in the other direction too though. .
The only part I disagree with you on is the extent. There are true liberals and true conservatives. But very very few. Most people who follow either "side" of the fake Left/Right Hegelian dialectic can think perfectly well, up to the point where it conflicts with a previously held belief. At that point, practically everyone (and I mean 99.9%+) of people will abandon logic, reason, and intellectual honesty, to maintain the integrity of what they already "think". This is because what they "think", in that particular area, has not really been thought through at all, but is rather something they feel.

The extent of authoritarianism on both sides is truly frightening. But not surprising given the education system.
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Old 23rd February 2018
  #59
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Yes, there's actual liberalism, and then there's the liberal boogie man/straw man, which has been fabricated by zooming in on and cherry picking the worse traits of various extremes, combining them all up into one massive over-the-top generalization, and then putting this insane generalized combination of extremes onto everyone who calls themselves liberal in a blunt and thoughtless "us vs them, they're the enemy" manner.

Goes on in the other direction too though. .
You bet.

And totally agreed on the goes-both-ways notion, as well. I grew up among old-fashioned politically/economically conservative, socially liberal folks, primarily. It greatly pains me when folks today (and I'm sometimes guilty myself) use conservative as though the only people who called themselves conservatives are religious extremists and ethno-nationalists. =(
Old 23rd February 2018
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
The only part I disagree with you on is the extent. There are true liberals and true conservatives. But very very few. Most people who follow either "side" of the fake Left/Right Hegelian dialectic can think perfectly well, up to the point where it conflicts with a previously held belief. At that point, practically everyone (and I mean 99.9%+) of people will abandon logic, reason, and intellectual honesty, to maintain the integrity of what they already "think". This is because what they "think", in that particular area, has not really been thought through at all, but is rather something they feel.

The extent of authoritarianism on both sides is truly frightening. But not surprising given the education system.
Some very good points!

Being human, I see some of the same resort to established thinking and political position in myself as I see in others -- and far too often. That said, we humans resort to heurism and habit because we mostly don't have time to reason and re-reason every new statement or position that crosses our paths. Also, I think many of us sometimes confuse our 'values' with our 'established positions' on given issues, even as those are really two very different, though not always easily defined constructs.
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