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Better monitors and Ear Fatigue (kh120a) Studio Monitors
Old 31st August 2014
  #31
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by changolayne View Post
SPL crimson and Quested s7r is what I have - pure pleasure and great translation! for low bass I use headphones/analyzers. my room is not perfectly treated down in the sub bass region anyway so I wouldnt really benefit from lower extension in speakers. but thinking of upgrading to s8r or 2108 one day when I fix the room. and Im interested in the sonodyne sdr400 as well as secondary speakers!
This is encouraging to hear! I`m currently back on my Tannoys and can hear the stuff I was mixing on the Kh120a is translating better to the Tannoys than anything I was able to do on the Tannoys themselves! I`m convinced now finding the right upgrade will be worth it!

I`m looking forward to see how I get on with the SPL Quested combo.
Old 24th September 2014
  #32
Gear Maniac
 

Ok, I`ve had the Quested S7R for a couple of days now and have to say they are keepers!

The fatigue issue is far better on these, there is a slight element of it at higher volumes on certain recordings but the ear comfort factor is really improved.

There is enough bass to give a good picture of stuff, I even rolled the bass back a notch with the dip switches due to room issues. I will probably invest in some good headphones as my next move as room treatment may be tricky for now. Highs are present enough and very natural sounding. The stereo image has a good phantom centre, vocals can hang in front of you, and its true what people say about this speaker being sweet in the vocal range; Very articulate!

Easy to tell between CD recordings vs the lower bit rate Spotify streams when ABing, and the similar diferences are between the new SPL Crimson D/A converters vs. an old Phillips separates CD player too. Haven`t AB`d with my M-audio 24/96 yet.

A great upgrade from the Tannoys and characteristics that suit me better than the KH120a. Like people have said before the S7R is a very natural open sounding speaker.

Thanks for the suggestions in this thread!
Old 23rd February 2015
  #33
Gear Maniac
 

Just to update this thread, I ended up wanting more bass than the S7Rs could offer on their own. I have settled on Focal Alpha 65s for now, which I am finding decent on the ear fatigue front, with better bass extension:


Current post from another thread:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/10841911-post165.html

Messe 2014: Focal launches the new Alpha monitors

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tune View Post
I`ve just had some Alpha 65s here now for over a week now, a bit of background and thoughts:

I`ve been searching for some new monitors for a while and so far in my space had tried kh120a and Quested S7R. The 120s were nice little speakers with great mids resolution and imaging but I had trouble with them as they caused me ear fatigue, just couldn`t get on with the tweeter. I then tried the Questeds which I got on much better with. They were a lot less fatiguing, really natural sounding and involving, particularly in the vocal range. However I returned them with one of the reasons being the bass extension only goes to ~65Hz on the S7s and the S8s were just too big for my space. I also did not want to have to deal with sub integration for now.

A few months later, starting the search again I ordered the Alpha 50s in and was pretty impressed with them. They have a decent punch and bass extension and I didn`t find them particularly fatiguing. Because of their relatively small size, desktop placement was pretty straightforward too. I still felt however that I could do with a bit more bass extension! I decided to order the 65s along side them with the ability to return either pair. The extra 5Hz stated bass extension to 40Hz on the 65s, just made the music sit better for me, with more intelligible low notes. The bigger cabinet also makes them sound more effortless than the 50s.

I ended up returning the 50s and happily have the 65s sitting on some isoacoustic stands in front of me now. I would say though it`s useful to have a roller chair to check further back sometimes if you`re sitting close!

The overall sound is still changing at the moment, and there have been a few aha! moments in the burn in period. The sounds starts off quite competent but restrained. The bass is the first thing to open up, then in stages the the mids an the highs improve. I`ve particularly noticed stereo field improving in the last couple of days, with the phantom centre becoming more defined. Vocals are sitting better in the centre, percussive sounds crystalizing more precisely etc.

Due to the price it`s probably unfair to compare these to the 120s and the S7s. Any comparison I make will be from memory aswell which is obviously not the best. However I would say they posess a strong set of characteristics which doesn`t make it ridiculous to be talking about them in the same post . I also have ended up choosing them over the other two as they tick more boxes for me:

-Easy enough on my ears
-Decent clean bass extension
-Decent stereo image
-Can work in a desktop situation - just fitting the upper limit here.

The one thing that would have made my life easier would have been some global gain controls, maybe to -15 or 20dB on the back. I`m running an SPL Crimson into them and in order to get the gain staging running optimally for everything, I`m getting a NOS McOne passive controller to attenuate the signal in between. Not the end of the world for me, as it gives more flexibility in other ways too but something to be aware of if your gain staging is not set ideally for max monitor input.

Overall though, I`m very happy with them so far!

Last edited by 4tune; 24th February 2015 at 12:44 PM..
Old 13th March 2015
  #34
Gear Maniac
 

A further update -- this never ends

I started to get fatigue after a while with the alphas too, so I am going a different tack now.

I`ve got myself some Eve SC204 in and may add a sub later. The Eves are small so I can use them in conjunction with the old Tannoys if they start to fatigue. If the sub works out I have more options too.

I`m learning that first impressions aren`t everything with speakers but I`ll share on the Eves anyway:

-Good detail
-Better stereo imaging than the Focal Alphas, closer to what I remember with the kh120 and S7.
-Quite bright but have good EQ options to help with that.
-Very decent sweet spot. I Just put them straight up on isoacoustics and don`t yet feel the need to keep shifting them around.

More updating to come no doubt

Last edited by 4tune; 13th March 2015 at 03:22 PM..
Old 16th May 2015
  #35
Gear Maniac
 

Two months later and I now have the Eve TS107 subwoofer with the SC204 `s. I ordered in both the TS107 and TS108 to compare but decided to go with the 107. The 108 is certainly an impressive sub but too much so for my room - it got all the furniture rattling including my chair. The 107 can give you the extra lower octave without necessarily needing to be surrounded by oak furnishings! The 107 will also gives a bit of rattle but only on the biggest notes! Note all of this is without either of the subs having much burn in time too.

Playing around with placement of the 107, I`ve found a good position is at desk height off to the right side; surprisingly close to the corner. However I could see myself getting a second 107 and placing it on the left to even things out a bit. I also tried it close up, with one of the 204s directly on top. The sound integrated surprisingly well (maybe the best so far), so if I did get a second 107 I could also create a sort of stack up three way system, it all becomes quite flexible with being able to mute out the subs with the remote too.

Also over the last couple of months the ear fatigue with the 204s has been fine with-3dB in the highs and tweeter grilles left on, so I`m happily settling with this system for now.

Keeping my old CambridgeA5 amp in use I`ve invested in some Cambridge Audio Minx Min12, as secondary speakers. They sit nicely on top of the sc204s and give a surprising 120hz to 20khz using a Balanced Mode Radiator. Certainly found them useful to check the mid-range.

Last edited by 4tune; 16th May 2015 at 03:35 PM..
Old 18th May 2015
  #36
Here for the gear
 

Glad to see you're finally sticking to a pair!

Just noticed btw, it's my first post here on the forum, has been interesting reading your speaker adventures, among other stories from our fellow friends.

Cheers and keep us updated
Old 18th May 2015
  #37
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrflowp View Post
Glad to see you're finally sticking to a pair!

Just noticed btw, it's my first post here on the forum, has been interesting reading your speaker adventures, among other stories from our fellow friends.

Cheers and keep us updated
haha! yes I`m certainly glad too as I`m sure is the delivery man, some of those boxes going back and forward were pretty heavy and awkward!

I`ve spent a fair amount of time reading through the monitor threads here too, hopefully this thread may help add to that for anyone who is in a similar situation as mine.

I`ve certainly learnt a lot in the last year and I`d say the most valuable things for me have been:

- Isoacoustic stands (or your isolators of choice) really help improve the sound of any speaker; tighter bass, better imaging, and getting tweeters at correct height.
- 40Hz seems to be the magic bass roll-off number with`enough` bass extension for me. First with the alpha 65s (~40Hz) and now the ts107 (~high 30`s -Hz). being able to `feel` that region really helps me balance the kick against the rest of the track.
- Checking the room response with ARC 2 and re-arranging the set-up a bit for a better response (Others seem to be using REW which I am yet to check)
- Very useful having a secondary set of `bassless` speakers to focus on the mid range without any bass masking going on.
- Completely worth testing things in your own space even though it can be a pain to do so. You will become expert at repacking electronics at least!

TODO
- Room treatment, starting with bass traps
- Probably a second ts107 for the extra flexibility and centralising the bass more

~save up for some Amphions and test their whole range in my space
Old 18th May 2015
  #38
Gear Nut
 
foge's Avatar
Nice to read a longer journey in a thread. I bought some kh120s it took me a fair while to settle on the right position in my room. They seem very particular about height and angle etc

Anyway enjoyed your thread

Last edited by foge; 18th May 2015 at 09:34 PM..
Old 18th May 2015
  #39
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foge View Post
Nice to read a longer journey in a thread. I bought some kh120s it took me a fair while to settle on the right position in my room. They seem very particular about height and angle etc

Anyway enjoyed your thread
The 120`s are certainly very good speakers, if my ears had clicked with them they would likely still be sitting here now. However I`m happy with how these Eves seem to be working out so hopefully just a few more tweaks and I can forget about monitoring/upgrading for a while!
Old 7th August 2018
  #40
Gear Maniac
 

Just an update to this thread.

After a while with the SC204`s I took the tweeter grilles off and was fine with no fatigue, so that`s a positive as the stereo imaging improved with that.
However I eventually sold them as I wasn`t too happy with the lower mids.

The Ts107`s went too. Good subs but was always wanting a variable polarity control. They only had a 180 degree flip, which helped but I felt I could have dialed them in better with variable phase.

Since then have tried Amphion Argon0 which have a metal tweeter but I was alright with it, though they were quite bright.. Good lower mids though and fast, even with cheap amps (probably would have benefitted more with the amphion amp100). I did end up selling them too in the end though.

I also had Munrosonic egg 100`s in at the same time and preferred things about the eggs, which I currently have still sitting in front of me. In some ways the eggs could have been my ideal speaker as they`ve got a lot going for them. Good close up, ideal tweeter character, a dry but non-fatiguing sound, virtually no hiss from tweeters + good lower mids aswell. There has been one thing that has bothered me with them though and that is the stereo imaging.

Something happens with their dispersion/ diffraction which throws a large image, that can seem wider than the width of the speakers. This I guessed has to do with the egg shape and diffraction characteristics, so I tried an experiment of putting a folded up pillow case on top of each speaker. The imaging tidied up an detail improved - if still not an ideal sound it was certainly more direct and less `hazey`. It`s a shame because like I say they have a lot going for them. Also if memory serves someone here on GS said they heard the eggs with an Attack Wall and said they came pretty close to ATCs:

ASC AttackWall for the ultimate mixroom recording environment

This doesn`t surprise me that they did well with that sort of room treatment where the speaker is embedded, after my homebrew pillow case experiment

So really I want some non egg-shaped eggs from munrosonic

Anyway, the search continues and the other thing worth mentioning is that since getting a fair few monster bass traps and a sub-pac my desire/ need for subs has gone down. I`ve got the subpac placed facing up on some large Sellotape rolls as a stand on the desk. Suits me better than on the chair; just reach out with your hand to check the kick and bass are sitting well.

subpac on sellotape rolls: (shown facing down in pic, but better upwards I`d say now )

Last edited by 4tune; 8th August 2018 at 02:18 PM..
Old 16th August 2018
  #41
Here for the gear
Hey @4tune, interesting thread on air fatigue.
I can suggest trying coaxial monitors. Someone already mentioned Presonus Sceptre.
I am using Fluid FX8 for almost 6 months and I am pretty much amazed with the sound they produce in comparison to standard 2-way monitors.

Btw, I wish there are more aluminum cabinets out there, as Neumann kh120. I hate cheap vinyl/wood/MDF.
Old 16th August 2018
  #42
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by warhead View Post
Dome tweeter: PSI Audio

Inverted: FOCAL Solo6 (same tweeter as the Twin6, but somehow smoother!)

Horn / coaxial: PreSonus Sceptre

Ribbon: Unity Rock

all come to mind but even these will find their detractors and there are many more I am not remembering. That is at least an example of each kind, which kind of comes down to the tweeter when it comes to what most feel as fatigue.

War
The unity rock its very bright and extremely narrow sweet spot the super rock its better . . Would say the Eve Audio its a lot smoother ribbon.
Old 16th August 2018
  #43
Gear Head
Or even try the Fluid Audio FPX7. They are amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebrightestday View Post
Hey @4tune, interesting thread on air fatigue.
I can suggest trying coaxial monitors. Someone already mentioned Presonus Sceptre.
I am using Fluid FX8 for almost 6 months and I am pretty much amazed with the sound they produce in comparison to standard 2-way monitors.

Btw, I wish there are more aluminum cabinets out there, as Neumann kh120. I hate cheap vinyl/wood/MDF.
Old 16th August 2018
  #44
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tune View Post
I did consider the Eves but unfortunately they are rear firing ports and really I wanted front firing. With my old Tannoys I ended up sticking some rolled up socks in the ports to clear up the smearing/ booming. My current speaker placement is quite close to the walls.

In the kh120 is the porting seems far superior to the Tannoys. I am sure a lot of this is due to design/price but am still a bit wary of rear porting.
Get presonus r65 then front ported as good if not better then eve
Old 16th August 2018
  #45
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks for all the suggestions here!

My next line of thinking if/ when the Munro eggs go is to try some Unity Audio Pebbles.

...

With the Fluid Audio stuff FX8, is probably too big for desktop use and the FPX7 have got that shut-down on timer thing that I`m not too keen on. Would have considered the FPX7 otherwise.

Eve are still a possibility. I know that I get on with the Eve tweeter. It was just the lower mids on the 204`s I found muddyish. Like I mentioned in previous post, my room may have played into that, but maybe the larger models are better in the lower-mids than the 204?

Sceptre, I`ve read can be a bit fatiguing: mentioned by someone here on GS. I`d have to demo them to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeorge View Post
Get presonus r65 then front ported as good if not better then eve
Since writing what you quoted about the Tannoys and rear ports, it`s probably something I`m less bothered about now since trying the Amphion Argons. They were rear firing and no obvious problems here. I think a lot of it has to do with the quality/ design of the speaker and its porting over the `rule of thumb` I was going by before. R65 are another possibility though.



Cheers!
Old 16th August 2018
  #46
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tune View Post
Thanks for all the suggestions here!

My next line of thinking if/ when the Munro eggs go is to try some Unity Audio Pebbles.

...

With the Fluid Audio stuff FX8, is probably too big for desktop use and the FPX7 have got that shut-down on timer thing that I`m not too keen on. Would have considered the FPX7 otherwise.

Eve are still a possibility. I know that I get on with the Eve tweeter. It was just the lower mids on the 204`s I found muddyish. Like I mentioned in previous post, my room may have played into that, but maybe the larger models are better in the lower-mids than the 204?

Sceptre, I`ve read can be a bit fatiguing: mentioned by someone here on GS. I`d have to demo them to see.



Since writing what you quoted about the Tannoys and rear ports, it`s probably something I`m less bothered about now since trying the Amphion Argons. They were rear firing and no obvious problems here. I think a lot of it has to do with the quality/ design of the speaker and its porting over the `rule of thumb` I was going by before. R65 are another possibility though.



Cheers!
The larger models.have it as well very muddy low mids but could be a room issue?They have 300 switch.I need to upgrade as well and I gone crazy so many options.I like myself unity audio super rock and the mini rocks
Old 16th August 2018
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeorge View Post
The larger models.have it as well very muddy low mids but could be a room issue?They have 300 switch.I need to upgrade as well and I gone crazy so many options.I like myself unity audio super rock and the mini rocks
I feared that about the larger Eve models too.

Yes the rocks do look nice! Sealed cabinet would be interesting to try. I imagine that I`d probably get on better with the tweeter with the Pebbles though.

At the moment I`m just seeing if I can get more accustomed to the eggs and maybe get something secondary aswell.

If it hadn`t been for the stereo image thing I would just upgrade to the egg 150s and be done with it..

Good luck with your search aswell! If you do get the Rocks it will be interesting to read your responses.
Old 16th August 2018
  #48
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tune View Post
I feared that about the larger Eve models too.

Yes the rocks do look nice! Sealed cabinet would be interesting to try. I imagine that I`d probably get on better with the tweeter with the Pebbles though.

At the moment I`m just seeing if I can get more accustomed to the eggs and maybe get something secondary aswell.

If it hadn`t been for the stereo image thing I would just upgrade to the egg 150s and be done with it..

Good luck with your search aswell! If you do get the Rocks it will be interesting to read your responses.
Sealed are the best the transient its insanely fast.They don't have this earth shaking bass but you can hear it while.on ported the port make it bigger then actually it is.Pebbles need to.be used with bam bam otherwise its not good.The rocks are big step up tough.Kevin need just to do simple update to make some dispersion on the ribbons as they are useless like that very narrowly directional.I returned my adam for that this is crazy I don't know how people work like that.My speakers are ribbons now as well but their dispersion kill the adams I.can mix from the next door and place Instruments.They are also.extremely smooth and relaxed I.can work 12 hours and no fatigue.I used Genelec before and this metal dome mennn I lost my hearing this is shrill as ****.Hedd monitors are interesting but I never used them with the lineiser straight of the box they sound strange like the mids completely disappear but they are very clinical in a way I would say more then eve.I've heard them against presonus r65 and they was a bit better but thats very subjective.I even like a lot the yamaha ,the alphas u can mix greatly on any of them,but of course a higher end pair would make you a better mixer no doubt about that.Pmc, Psi,Super Rocks detail and micro dynamics are astonishing you will drop your jaw. .You will make more musical choices when it comes to compression and soundstage.The super rocks have Mundorf Amt quite high end **** one they cost as pair adams..I can afford them but don't have the room for them when I do I will have them definetely.
Old 16th August 2018
  #49
Gear Maniac
 

Good to hear your thoughts here, you`ve clearly tested/ listened to a lot of monitors. Also as with me, don`t seem to like metal tweeters much!

Another couple of options that have interested me are passive ATC (would need to save in order to get a decent amp here too)
or APS coax. Have you come across either of those in your testing?
Old 18th August 2018
  #50
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tune View Post
Good to hear your thoughts here, you`ve clearly tested/ listened to a lot of monitors. Also as with me, don`t seem to like metal tweeters much!

Another couple of options that have interested me are passive ATC (would need to save in order to get a decent amp here too)
or APS coax. Have you come across either of those in your testing?
Aps coax never heard them but they are great they got.seas drivers sealed cabinets.This is high end stuff.However I hear about quality and translation issues with thE Aps speakers so I stay away.I need 4 inch for my space now as even 5 inch feels too big for me I don't like the bass to fill the room and drain the mids.Really wanted eve audio sc204 but u are saying they are muddy I.am.not sure if that's.not just room issue?Also if the low mids aee muddy maybe the record its muddy?I shoouted out eve audio with unity audio rocks mk 2 and ofcourse the rocks its more expensive sounding but eve reveal more then the rocks and the tweeter its better for stereo.I prefer the ribbon on the adam its more clinical but it doeant have dispersion and its awful I can't mix.like that every 2 min I redo the mix.I got.temporary samson rxa6 to keep.me.going untill.I get higher end I.had so much hope for.the hedd but wasn't impressed.Neumann dsp 80 vs eve sc204 would be my choice maybe before I.move back to my house and get there the rocks with high end dac and never updgrade untill I.am alive.
Old 18th August 2018
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks for getting back about APS

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeorge View Post
Really wanted eve audio sc204 but u are saying they are muddy I.am.not sure if that's.not just room issue?Also if the low mids aee muddy maybe the record its muddy?
The only way to know for yourself is to try the 204s in your own space. All I can say (working from memory as I don`t still have them) is that compared to the 204s I preferred the lower mids in:

Kh120
S7R
Amphion Argon0
Egg 100

The last two were in a better treated room which no doubt helped. If I was going to try eve again I would personally start from the 205. YMMV.
Old 18th August 2018
  #52
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tune View Post
Thanks for getting back about APS



The only way to know for yourself is to try the 204s in your own space. All I can say (working from memory as I don`t still have them) is that compared to the 204s I preferred the lower mids in:

Kh120
S7R
Amphion Argon0
Egg 100

The last two were in a better treated room which no doubt helped. If I was going to try eve again I would personally start from the 205. YMMV.
Ye actually I tried 208 and 305 and 305 its killing them but I don't have the room for the 3 way.Aps Coax its.nice.but without demo.its.hard.to.judge them.Unity Audio Mini Rocks are.in the price range and they are killer papercone sandwich like with diamond look tweeters they are the.new.elac.tweeters.I like the neumann 80 dsp its the only speaker I heard which would not make ur track sounds nice.This is why I got the Samson as well cause same track sounded fine on the Presonus r 65 but not on the samson the ribbon of.the samson reveal a bit more.detail.as.well.But of course there is no one brush fits all I.want.to.work.with 2 pairs one sterile for.mixing mastering and one more like the samson to excite the room so. I.can.work long hours without fatigue.I also don't like analytical speakers to produce music because I tweak too much the sound
Old 19th August 2018
  #53
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeorge View Post
Ye actually I tried 208 and 305 and 305 its killing them but I don't have the room for the 3 way
Yes I`ve read a lot of people who tried the sc305 had a lot of praise for them.

It looks like they are designed for horizontal placement only which does make them more difficult in smaller spaces..

From Manual:
Quote:
The SC305 and SC307 monitors were especially designed to be placed
horizontally. Fix the supplied rubber feet to the bottom side of the monitor
and place it on an even and steady surface.
Old 19th August 2018
  #54
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tune View Post
Yes I`ve read a lot of people who tried the sc305 had a lot of praise for them.

It looks like they are designed for horizontal placement only which does make them more difficult in smaller spaces..

From Manual:
Yes but they are phenomenal compete well with the rocks for half the price.The Low Mids are thick tough I think its Eve sound that tighter lowend and low mids
Old 19th August 2018
  #55
Lives for gear
 

Also would say depend with what dac u use them...dac are very important **** dac would not use the full potential of revealing speakers.
Old 19th January 2019
  #56
Gear Maniac
 

nm

Last edited by 4tune; 25th January 2019 at 03:37 AM..
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