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Vintech,BAE, Neve, doubts Dual-Channel Preamps
Old 6th August 2014
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Vintech,BAE, Neve, doubts

Hello, have the following gear:
two Ina 217 diy preamps (like DAv BG1)
Two supergreen preamps DIY (Mozart schem)
on the past had a Presonus Mp20, quite satisfiying.
Now a Ucx, with the two Rme preamps.
Aditionatlly a Mytek Stereo 192 AD.
Mics, U87, C414-uls, Nt5

I have arrived to the "Neve" never end topic, and searched, and re-searched.
Found threads about Vintech X73i, BAE good vintage sound, discussing about new AMS units, Avedis Ma5 wonderfull 28k button magics... and now have more doubts than ever had.

I searched mainly for my use on vocals with U87. First doubt, does it worth the EQ? I found X73i and BAE MDP my main candidates.

Aditionally found that 500 series maybe are cheaper for a complete rack of preamps, so next doubt is, do they worth for every instrument? Do they worth the money they cost in general, recording guitars, drums.. other instruments?
I consider also as an investment for recording local bands. I have a pair of Yamaha AW4416 that could link for a 32 channel recording, motorized faders.
Now that have the Ucx and 6 line inputs "free" I considering, if sell it, and get for example, an Audient 880, 8 good preamps for a reasonably price.
On the other hand, Neve type preamps cost only one channel the same as the Audient.., ¿do they worh in the mix the extra punch, easy to mix, fit? or is more snobbism than other thing?

I have found the 500 series maybe should be a cheaper long term investment per unit, considering buy multiple color types of this preamps, but does it worth? for what instruments is relevant?

Considering only one mono unit for my use for vocal with the U87 what should you recomend? Bae MDP? should I miss the EQ of the Vintech x73i? maybe this second one is more versatile?

I think that with this amounts of $$ for a single preamp I should like it should be enough veratile, so my main thought is that maybe the Vintech Eq could allow play around with the EQ to find the desired or prefered "sound", since the BAE is has only it´s sound....

Moreover, about the 500 series, there are a lot of diferente models, 1073, 1272,1081,1066, seems a never end story, I guess is any where a guide for what instrument each one is better for each instrument...

Lot of doubts, any thoughts,

And...., so much gear, so little time.., but time is money so money is time, and I should don´t waste my time-money more than should worth, for example better punch, easier to mix...
Thanks in advance.
Old 6th August 2014
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Swurveman's Avatar
Take it for what it's worth, but the guy I merged my studio with had the 500 Series Vintech 573 before I moved in with my 4 rack mounted X73i's. He never uses the 500 series anymore, because he said the rack mounted ones sound better. I can't prove it, and I'm sure Vintech would disagree, but this is what the engineer said to me. So, like I said take it for what it's worth.

As for your post, we use the EQ on the X73i both while tracking and as a hardware insert. So, it is useful in both the mixing and tracking phases.

I don't think you can go wrong with either the BAE or the Vintech.
Old 6th August 2014
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

First of all, thanks for your reply,

Well, it´s logical that stan-alone units can sound better, I think maybe depend on how good it´s the rack-unit designed. Rack unit has it´s own power supply (even the Vintech PSU can supply more than one unit), the PSU is dedicated exclusively for that unit, 500 series will depend maybe on how good is the psu of the rack, and isolation from other units running in the same rack. Transformers have there magnetic field, the pcb can be perfectly designed with plenty of space on a rack unit for one only preamp, so it have sense that rack units maybe sound better in some cases.

What I didn´t understand is, "take it for what it´s worth", do you mean vocal? do you mean depend of my needings? what do you mean?

Both the BAe and the X73i seems very good. The BAe seems rock solid built on the dmp version, x73i seems atractive for the EQ, the thing I don´t like it to have to buy the separate PSU, and it´s no portable at all. Seems the psu is as big as the own BAE DMP.
I guess if for vocals, to get my sound with the U87, if the EQ may be relevant. Some guys did they don´t EQ at all, and don´t need it really, others say it´s a good thing to have it.
Is there any alternative with EQ? The version that BAE has with EQ cost $3135, what it´s really "too much" I think for what it´s really worth.

The BAE DMP seems cheaper than the x73i, but no EQ.
I guess if it´s another alternatives, and also guess if the EQ it´s no important here to base the selection based on the EQ?
Since BAE DMP costs $1145 (price on their web), and considering the Vintech PSU the difference it´s 455$, I guess if it´s worth and options like BAE DMP+ third party EQ? Does it have sense? Or just EQ later digitally is enough?

Thanks in advance.
Old 7th August 2014
  #4
Lives for gear
 

My two cents. I rarely track with EQ.

Remember the 1073 modules were originally outfitted in Neve consoles where they would be used for mixing. Unless you have a summing box and are running out stereo stems and want two EQ the stems and have stereo pairs of 1073s or similar, I don't know how worthwhile the EQ will be to you. Of course if you like to EQ while tracking then by all means, but this is a question you could probably best answer for yourself depending on your needs and how you like to work
Old 7th August 2014
  #5
A 1073 type EQ is perfect for tracking because it's so simple. I wouldn't be afraid of it, especially used in moderation. It can definitely make the final production (mix) easy going.
Old 7th August 2014
  #6
I recommend the Great River MP1NV and the Empirical Labs LILFREQ,
Old 7th August 2014
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I recommend the Great River MP1NV and the Empirical Labs LILFREQ,
^ TRANSLATION: "I don't sell the gear you're asking about so I'm recommending something else"
Old 7th August 2014
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveE View Post
^ TRANSLATION: "I don't sell the gear you're asking about so I'm recommending something else"
I recommended it because the poster had a second thought about the other stuff,
The gear I mention needs no second thoughts,


peace
Old 7th August 2014
  #9
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I recommended it because the poster had a second thought about the other stuff,
The gear I mention needs no second thoughts,


peace
Then why do you suppose there are so many "second" hand ones for sale on eBay, Craigslist, etc.?
Old 7th August 2014
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagoausente View Post
Hello, have the following gear:
two Ina 217 diy preamps (like DAv BG1)
Two supergreen preamps DIY (Mozart schem)
on the past had a Presonus Mp20, quite satisfiying.
Now a Ucx, with the two Rme preamps.
Aditionatlly a Mytek Stereo 192 AD.
Mics, U87, C414-uls, Nt5

I have arrived to the "Neve" never end topic, and searched, and re-searched.
Found threads about Vintech X73i, BAE good vintage sound, discussing about new AMS units, Avedis Ma5 wonderfull 28k button magics... and now have more doubts than ever had.

I searched mainly for my use on vocals with U87. First doubt, does it worth the EQ? I found X73i and BAE MDP my main candidates.

Aditionally found that 500 series maybe are cheaper for a complete rack of preamps, so next doubt is, do they worth for every instrument? Do they worth the money they cost in general, recording guitars, drums.. other instruments?
I consider also as an investment for recording local bands. I have a pair of Yamaha AW4416 that could link for a 32 channel recording, motorized faders.
Now that have the Ucx and 6 line inputs "free" I considering, if sell it, and get for example, an Audient 880, 8 good preamps for a reasonably price.
On the other hand, Neve type preamps cost only one channel the same as the Audient.., ¿do they worh in the mix the extra punch, easy to mix, fit? or is more snobbism than other thing?

I have found the 500 series maybe should be a cheaper long term investment per unit, considering buy multiple color types of this preamps, but does it worth? for what instruments is relevant?

Considering only one mono unit for my use for vocal with the U87 what should you recomend? Bae MDP? should I miss the EQ of the Vintech x73i? maybe this second one is more versatile?

I think that with this amounts of $$ for a single preamp I should like it should be enough veratile, so my main thought is that maybe the Vintech Eq could allow play around with the EQ to find the desired or prefered "sound", since the BAE is has only it´s sound....
vintech aren't bad for the money


Quote:
Originally Posted by lagoausente View Post

there are a lot of diferente models, 1073, 1272,1081,1066,
1272 isn't a preamp also 1073 and 1066 sound much different from 1081.
Old 7th August 2014
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Then why do you suppose there are so many "second" hand ones for sale on eBay, Craigslist, etc.?
Oh yea?
I just looked..
And well, it is 90% from Dealers, I typed in EMPIRICAL LABS LILFREQ and got All EL8's, one used the rest from "Authorized Dealer" guys.

The 10%...well I do not care....used gear is bought and sold all day, for many reasons,
That has no bering on the gear, and how good it is,

That is the USER of the gear,

The Gear is all adequate. I offered an opinion,

I tried to help the OP,
Old 7th August 2014
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Doc recommended gear for our studio and was told up front that it would not be purchased from him because of duty into canada that fact didnt stop him from helping us make the right choice.
Old 7th August 2014
  #13
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
Oh yea?
I just looked..
And well, it is 90% from Dealers, I typed in EMPIRICAL LABS LILFREQ and got All EL8's, one used the rest from "Authorized Dealer" guys.

The 10%...well I do not care....used gear is bought and sold all day, for many reasons,
That has no bering on the gear, and how good it is,

That is the USER of the gear,

The Gear is all adequate. I offered an opinion,

I tried to help the OP,
Come on, you know darn well that the gear you listed are common in the used market. Just because you don't see any today doesn't mean anything. They are there throughout the year at various times. And yes some people sell them because they are having second thoughts about the gear. No need to put the Great River MP1NV and the Empirical Labs LILFREQ on a special pedestal. Good year? yes. The best? not for everybody.

You stated very boldly that the gear you recommended "needs no second thoughts". ALL gear is subject to second thoughts. You gave a sales pitch nothing more. Making an erronius claim like you did is not helping, it's pushing.
Old 7th August 2014
  #14
I don't speak Drone,

sorry, can't understand what you are saying,

But I'd rather stick my head into a bucket of oil than debate with you,

Have fun with all that,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Come on, you know darn well that the gear you listed are common in the used market. Just because you don't see any today doesn't mean anything. They are there throughout the year at various times. And yes some people sell them because they are having second thoughts about the gear. No need to put the Great River MP1NV and the Empirical Labs LILFREQ on a special pedestal. Good year? yes. The best? not for everybody.

You stated very boldly that the gear you recommended "needs no second thoughts". ALL gear is subject to second thoughts. You gave a sales pitch nothing more. Making an erronius claim like you did is not helping, it's pushing.
Old 7th August 2014
  #15
Gear Addict
 
jayson_p's Avatar
 

Quote:
^ TRANSLATION: "I don't sell the gear you're asking about so I'm recommending something else"
^TRANSLATION: Since I can't afford it, I'll assume it sucks.

You know I didn't see the Doc recommend that he buy any of the stated items from HIM. If the statement that there are lots of them on Ebay and Craig's List is true then so much the better for the OP; that should make the task of getting one that much easier,
Given what the OP was asking I think Doc gave an appropriate answer. You'd probably think so too... if you'd ever actually used any of the gear he mentioned and considered it in the context of the OP's question.
Maybe you should get back to your Mackie or at least troll elsewhere, No?
Old 7th August 2014
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks for the inputs about the EQ,
I didn´t like the Great River. I listened from two differnt threads two songs from diferent guys here on GS, one was x73i and Gr and the other it was a BAE and a GR and in both I didn´t like the sound of the GR, it was clean but had not the input, punch, color of the Vintech and BAE, it sounded "dry" for me, sorry but I forgot the GR some weeks ago.

A guy on other forum recomeded me Skulpor DIY clones. I have no problem about DIY. Have read aswell about SCA kits and it´s own box.
Some things seems atractive for me from Skulpor, they have a only-unit 500 case, it´s the cheapest neve-type clone I have found and portable. Even the web claims it´s a superb quiet psu, I have my doubts, it´s a switching mode power supply at very high frecuency, and I guess if should sound the same as the rack option with external psu (also smps).

Any reference about this kits? They also have the EQ modules, so seems that I could build my own setup and maybe buy one EQ unit to start with, and see if I need it.
What I like about the single 500 case it´s that seems the most portable Neve type preamp around, don´t know if will sacrify sound in some way...

I´m open to another suggestions, or opinions about this kits..

Thanks to all.

(sorry for deleted duplicated replies, I was having a problem with the net.)
Old 7th August 2014
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagoausente View Post
Thanks for the inputs about the EQ,
I didn´t like the Great River. I listened from two differnt threads two songs from diferent guys here on GS, one was x73i and Gr and the other it was a BAE and a GR and in both I didn´t like the sound of the GR, it was clean but had not the input, punch, color of the Vintech and BAE, it sounded "dry" for me, sorry but I forgot the GR some weeks ago.
you shouldn't go by online clips.
Old 7th August 2014
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

Alternative?
Old 7th August 2014
  #19
Lives for gear
Is there something about the recordings you're currently making that you don't like? You seem to be looking for a Neve-ish sound, but you don't like the Neve-ish suggestions being made.
Old 7th August 2014
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Pale Pyramid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post

You stated very boldly that the gear you recommended "needs no second thoughts". ALL gear is subject to second thoughts. You gave a sales pitch nothing more. Making an erronius claim like you did is not helping, it's pushing.
Wow dude! Read into things much?!
Old 7th August 2014
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagoausente View Post
Alternative?
rent one or get one on loan from a dealer.

GR is pretty much what a Neve clone sounds like, Also GR is arguably the tightest/punchiest of all the neve clones, it is punchier than a real 1073 or 1066 which are sloooow and aggressive. I would say GR has a similar bottom end of a 1073 and a 1081. It's sort of thick like 1073 but tight and faster punchy like a 1081.

Certainly this is subjective in both terminology and sonic interpretation but Neves pres are not for everyone. They have a dark sound, they have a really really thick sound and it's not always what people like. they are not fast punchy like an API.

All I can tell you is do not go by online clips, get a loaner and record a whole song with it. Also pick up some CDs cut on Neves. Quintessential Neve recordings
are Dio Holy Diver, Rage against the Machine, Foreigner Double Vision and Loudness thunder in the East. That's what class A Neves sound like.
Old 7th August 2014
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Swurveman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagoausente View Post

What I didn´t understand is, "take it for what it´s worth", do you mean vocal? do you mean depend of my needings? what do you mean?
I meant that my post was an anecdotal evidence from my experience, not scientific evidence and not representative of what you may hear/like when you listen to the preamps you're interested in.
Old 7th August 2014
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

I really appreciate your input, but don´t understand why online clips are not useful, at least as useful or more than finished mixed CD, because often clips sound more like they sound before much proccess.

I´ll have a look to the CDs you mention, on the other hand there are lot of people that use or build neve Diy clones even to record drums, others to record guitars, so sounds strange it´s a sound "Neves are not for everyone",

I´m not obsesed with exactly "Neve" vintage sound, I have a Rme Ucx with 6 line inputs and good AD, I should like to get different flavour,color preamps to have some variety to play around with..

Regarding the GR, what CD do you recomend to "hear it"?

The issue of the loan seems quite difficult where I live.
I think it should be more easy to buy/sell second hand ones that to loan one of this.
Old 7th August 2014
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

I find this clips quite useful, I hear more detail on the BAE, vocal bigger and rich and musical, GR little more boring, little "dry", BAE sounds less "digital".

Have listened to the bands chainrule recommended as "neve" type of sound, yes they sound "vintage", I don´t know if the entire band was tracked or mixed using external mixers, vintage preamps etc, but I think that for example on a vocal, that "neve" type of sound gives presence, and sounds more musical, I think it´s useful to enhace one instrument, maybe I´m wrong..

Sorry. forgot the link:

Great River or BAE clips here - opinions?
Old 7th August 2014
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagoausente View Post
The issue of the loan seems quite difficult where I live.
I think it should be more easy to buy/sell second hand ones that to loan one of this.
If you buy any of the typical neve clones used on ebay they will pretty much hold their value. You might lose 5% in fees if you resell them, but it's sometimes worth it to check it out, chances are you will keep the unit anyway.

most dealers have a 7-30 day return policy no questions asked..... take advantage of that, that's what it's for. I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the popular neve clones. I've tried at least 10 different brands over the years and they all sound great. Albeit ever so slightly different. My personal favs are
shep and ams neve. But gr, vintech, SCA, BAE, MA5, chandler all rock.

I hate to use the word "investment" and gear in the same sentence but all the neve clones pretty much hold their value if you buy them used.
Old 7th August 2014
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

Yes, but in Europe, there are less candidates to try. Most easy are thomann but they sell mostly new Neve ones.
I think I will built a Skulptor DIY, quite tentative.
Old 7th August 2014
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagoausente View Post
Yes, but in Europe, there are less candidates to try. Most easy are thomann but they sell mostly new Neve ones.
I think I will built a Skulptor DIY, quite tentative.
for DIY, SCA are very good
Old 7th August 2014
  #28
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I don't speak Drone,

sorry, can't understand what you are saying,

But I'd rather stick my head into a bucket of oil than debate with you,

Have fun with all that,
I'm not sure where you live, but maybe you can enroll in an English as a second language course?

I did say "good year" and what I meant to say was "good gear". A simple typo. I'll give you that one. I think you are just upset because someone doesn't agree with you. You gave mis-guided advice. You may as well have said "This gear is the best so buy it". Why? Because I said so.
Old 7th August 2014
  #29
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Pyramid View Post
Wow dude! Read into things much?!
Nope, just tired of the "This gear is the best so buy it"; Why? "Because I said so", kind of advice. Look at some of the posts in this thread where folks are describing the differences and providing links. That is a bit more useful wouldn't you agree?
Old 7th August 2014
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
for DIY, SCA are very good
Agree, also have looked to JML audio, seems more or less all the same things.
Finally I think it depends more on with side of the seas you live. I think that Skulptor have the advantaje of 500 compatible series, so can be in the same lunchbox as for example the Avedis, in the other hand SCA have the own box thats not compatible.
Have read very good things about skulptor quality, components, and also there is the option of the rack version instead of the 500 version. The rack version have more types of preamps, tube preamps, it seems quite interesting web, and even explain the uses in wich preamp should perform better. Some models have faster response in transients, the 73 is suggested for vocal,acousting musical color where need "push it out in the mix", it seems quite fair explanation of the diferent advantages of each one, and even explaining the reason (for example one preamp has no trafo at the input, but it has at the output, so it´s a design "clean but no clinic", because the output trafo gives some warm, and also there is another that is totally trafoless, so they seem to be quite transparent on what they offer.
I think it´s the way I´ll go. Alternative should be more money for only one mono channel for example. I think I can get more flavours with even this rack series or the 500 ones, have to decide still that, since 500 series I could buy other brands, and rack series I should stay more on they units, but still could combine both in the future.
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