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That Sheen Condenser Microphones
Old 23rd July 2014
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyandres View Post
Im surprised by how many hear rely so much on their equipment.
coming to a gear forum and relying on gear? who on earth do we think we are!!!! But I 'here' ya
Old 23rd July 2014
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post

those who are convinced that the only way to produce good results, or have a 'record sound', or 'that sheen' is by the way of specific gear (and usually on the higher end of the spectrum) are friggin' idiots (no doubt talent-less idiots at that).
.
Sorry but equipment gives you sheen, Neve , API, Burl, LA2A..... Gives you that sound, end of story. No really........... end of story

You can't get sheen from skill alone. It is not possible. You need top of the line equipment and that trumps skill for sheen. Mixing is a different story.
But sheen and texture come entirely from equipment and technology. Transformers, inductors, tubes, opamps, is what gives you sheen.

Is it a coincidence that large commercial facilities and world renown record producers don't use the consumer gear you guys are defending?
It's as if you guys are in some club where you want to stick together and defend crappy equipment as some crusade.

Let's hear all those gold albums done with firefaces with no drum triggers, no VI sampling, no compression, no pitch correction, no fatso plugins. Let's hear them?
7 pages later and not one person can make a valid argument by posting one mix that sounds professional done on this consumer equipment.
Let's go. A 4 or 5 piece rock band tracked on a fireface with NO samples, No compressors, no autotune, no fatso plugins. Juts a pristine recording. Let's hear it.

Prove me wrong, back it up with more than insults like "talent-less idiots". If no one can put up a recording that sounds like an album, I guess I will consider my views valid.
Seriously let's go. No samples , no compressors, no plugins, no effects. Just a live rock band in the studio through a FF.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #153
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burns46824's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
Equipment and that trumps skill for sheen. Mixing is a different story.
But sheen and texture come entirely from equipment and technology. Transformers, inductors, tubes, opamps is what gives you sheen.
Agreed. It's hilarious that so many people go on a gear forum and lambast...gear. Sure, it takes a lot of experience to get good at mixing, but you still have to have the infrastructure in place. There are plenty of well-mixed records that don't have "sheen." A few off the top of my head:

U2's The Joshua Tree
Tears for Fears' The Hurting and Songs from the Big Chair
Prince's Purple Rain
Old 23rd July 2014
  #154
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nyandres's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
Sorry but equipment gives you sheen, Neve , API, Burl, LA2A..... Gives you that sound, end of story. No really........... end of story

You can't get sheen from skill alone. It is not possible. You need top of the line equipment and that trumps skill for sheen. Mixing is a different story.
But sheen and texture come entirely from equipment and technology. Transformers, inductors, tubes, opamps, is what gives you sheen.

Is it a coincidence that large commercial facilities and world renown record producers don't use the consumer gear you guys are defending?
It's liek you guys are in some club where you want to stick together and defend crappy equipment as some crusade.

Let's hear all those gold albums done with firefaces with no sampling, no compression, no pitch correction. Let's hear them?
7 pages later and no one person can make a valid argument by producing one mix that sounds professional done on this consumer equipment
My point is that in the modern world. That sheen is achievable through great software. And I lot of hits are mixed in the box nowdays too. That being said, great equipment and a great room does help. Previously I had to work a lot to fix my sound. Now it just sound pretty much mixed as I track. The steps there after are rather the idea of taking those sounds to the next level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burns46824 View Post
Agreed. It's hilarious that so many people go on a gear forum and lambast...gear. Sure, it takes a lot of experience to get good at mixing, but you still have to have the infrastructure in place. There are plenty of well-mixed records that don't have "sheen."
Just two years ago plugin simulations were really ****ty. The $150 waves bundle with an LA2a, LA3a and 1176 were how I used to ge that sheen. I now have the hardware and still get that sheen, and it sounds bigger too. Having mixed on both though, equipment is not an excuse for a bad sounding track. A good interface (There are some at even just $300 like the Ross Martin Stuff which in my opinion sound better than the $2000 Apollos), a good mic (Not necessarily above a super expensive one. I love the K2), and a decent Room are all thats needed. Everything else can be done with plugins. I use a lot of hardware and have spent a lot on my monitoring and room treatment and it has helped massively. That said again, before having this, I used to get much of the same sheen I still get. It just did not sound as 3d and big, but still very good nonetheless.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #155
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
Sorry but equipment gives you sheen, Neve , API, Burl, LA2A..... Gives you that sound, end of story. No really........... end of story

musician instrument song arrangement give you sheen. equipment are a way
to capture that…… you got a lot to learn……….
Old 23rd July 2014
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burns46824 View Post

U2's The Joshua Tree
Tears for Fears' The Hurting and Songs from the Big Chair
Prince's Purple Rain


There is more analog color on those records than words can describe
Old 23rd July 2014
  #157
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hasbeen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
The burden of proof is on you , I don't have to prove they sound bad, you have to prove they sound good.
Disagree. You are in a position to prove exactly what you claim. Even more so perhaps after owning two in a row.



Matter of fact, an example of ANY of your work posted here would speak volumes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
7 pages later and not one person can make a valid argument by posting one mix that sounds professional done on this consumer equipment.
Let's go.
Please let us hear one of your mixes that you base your opinions on?

Thanks!
Old 23rd July 2014
  #158
007
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007's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
You come across as someone who really knows a lot about recording and understands just what it takes to get a great professional mix.
I do. Thanks.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #159
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by burns46824 View Post
Agreed. It's hilarious that so many people go on a gear forum and lambast...gear. Sure, it takes a lot of experience to get good at mixing, but you still have to have the infrastructure in place. There are plenty of well-mixed records that don't have "sheen." A few off the top of my head:

U2's The Joshua Tree
Tears for Fears' The Hurting and Songs from the Big Chair
Prince's Purple Rain
Better gear makes things easier but skill and experience trumps all. I guarantee you Andy Wallace or CLA would make a better mix with sheen using a Soundblaster than you or chainrule you could using Burls or Prisms.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
musician instrument song arrangement give you sheen. equipment are a way
to capture that…… you got a lot to learn……….
sheen is 100% equipment

Record an CD with no effects, no compressors all through ultra transparent mic pres and you will understand what I'm trying to convey.

Has anyone here ever done a whole CD, ITB without any effects? I would love to hear it.

Sheen comes from equipment, it comes from character pres, tube mics, compressors, reverb units, samples etc...
Old 23rd July 2014
  #161
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12tone's Avatar
 

I reckon if you had a world class first call engineer, and had him use just Chinese knock-offs and Behringer Gear, he'd produce something with that elusive 'sheen'...it ain't all about the gear, it's mostly talent, knowledge, and resourcefulness.

There are a thousand roads to Mecca as they say...if you can't adapt with whatever is at your disposal, then the PEBCAK...
Old 23rd July 2014
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
Better gear makes things easier but skill and experience trumps all. I guarantee you Andy Wallace or CLA would make a better mix using a Soundblaster than you or chainrule you could using Burls or Prisms.
Don't be ridiculous Andy Wallace records on Neve consoles in top of the line studios. He doesn't record on soundblasters. No professional producers and engineers have ever or will ever record on soundblasters. Andy Wallace is the king but he always records in top facilities with top notch gear and with the best bands of all time. And don't feed me that crap that equipment doesn't matter. It matters.

CLA he uses more compression than a zip file, he uses more effects than industrial lights and magic. bad example Animus. You could maybe make an argument for people who use kempers and pods since all the trickery and effects are built in to the box itself.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #163
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12tone's Avatar
 

ionian, a little late to the party...heh
Old 23rd July 2014
  #164
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nyandres's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
Don't be ridiculous Andy Wallace records on Neve consoles in top of the line studios. He doesn't record on soundblasters. No professional producers and engineers have ever or will ever record on soundblasters. Andy Wallace is the king but he always records in top facilities with top notch gear and with the best bands of all time.
Yes, because better equipment makes the job easier. If a great engineer with good though budget equipment sounds better than a good engineer with great equipment. The of course agreat engineer with great equipment sounds best. Point we are all making is the equipment does help, but its not the factor that makes the sheen. That is achievable through great skill and at least great plugins that ...yes ...simulate a lot of the hardware. The sheen is achieved by the saturation and overtones brought forth by hardware/hardware simulation. That means even at 1k budget it is possible. At a 10k budget it is of course not just possible but easier.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #165
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
Don't be ridiculous Andy Wallace records on Neve consoles in top of the line studios. He doesn't record on soundblasters. No professional producers and engineers have ever or will ever record on soundblasters. Andy Wallace is the king but he always records in top facilities with top notch gear and with the best bands of all time. And don't feed me that crap that equipment doesn't matter. It matters

Apparently the point went totally over your head.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyandres View Post
The sheen is achieved by the saturation and overtones brought forth by hardware/hardware simulation.
oh so now it is the gear..........
Old 23rd July 2014
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
Apparently the point went totally over your head.
No it didn't go over my head. Andy Wallace uses the best equipment in the best studios. CLA uses more studio trickery than any other producer in history.
Think of some better examples to try and get your "point" across. These guys don't endorse firefaces or adats.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #168
007
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007's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
Sorry but equipment gives you sheen, Neve , API, Burl, LA2A..... Gives you that sound, end of story. No really........... end of story

You can't get sheen from skill alone. It is not possible. You need top of the line equipment and that trumps skill for sheen. Mixing is a different story.
But sheen and texture come entirely from equipment and technology. Transformers, inductors, tubes, opamps, is what gives you sheen.

Is it a coincidence that large commercial facilities and world renown record producers don't use the consumer gear you guys are defending?
It's as if you guys are in some club where you want to stick together and defend crappy equipment as some crusade.

Let's hear all those gold albums done with firefaces with no drum triggers, no VI sampling, no compression, no pitch correction, no fatso plugins. Let's hear them?
7 pages later and not one person can make a valid argument by posting one mix that sounds professional done on this consumer equipment.
Let's go. A 4 or 5 piece rock band tracked on a fireface with NO samples, No compressors, no autotune, no fatso plugins. Juts a pristine recording. Let's hear it.

Prove me wrong, back it up with more than insults like "talent-less idiots". If no one can put up a recording that sounds like an album, I guess I will consider my views valid.
Seriously let's go. No samples , no compressors, no plugins, no effects. Just a live rock band in the studio through a FF.
Yet you still blamed his Fireface as culprit #1 from the very first page.

Many of today's top mixers have gone all ITB (look them up); give any of them a mixing job using only laptop, any DAW, decent monitors, a Fireface and some decent plugs (you know the ones) and you'll have more sheen than a TMZ broadcast from a few years ago. Oh yeah, and the mix itself will probably sound pretty damn good, too.
You make it sound like 'sheen' can only be attained by a 'large commercial facility', recording full bands, with top of the line gear.
No, no and no.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
Yet you still blamed his Fireface as culprit #1 from the very first page.

Many of today's top mixers have gone all ITB (look them up); give any of them a mixing job using only laptop, any DAW, decent monitors, a Fireface and some decent plugs (you know the ones) and you'll have more sheen than a TMZ broadcast from a few years ago. Oh yeah, and the mix itself will probably sound pretty damn good, too.

Name one of today's top mixers who solely use a fireface... NAME ONE. Name one person who can get "sheen" and texture without compressors, without analog micpres, without effects. Name one. There are none. Since it is not possible.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #170
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
No it didn't go over my head. Andy Wallace uses the best equipment in the best studios. Think of some better examples to try and get your "point" across.
No ****. My point was "if" he had to use a soundblaster he would still mix a better song than you would using top of the line converters.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #171
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
ionian, a little late to the party...heh
Lol..nothing new for me!
Old 23rd July 2014
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
No ****. My point was "if" he had to use a soundblaster he would still mix a better song than you would using top of the line converters.
Since he is perhaps the best e/m/p in the world, one would think he could mix better than me but this thread has nothing to do with me and he still would never use a sound-blaster and he probably wouldn't record in a crappy studio with firefaces either. He wouldn't waste his time nor would he ever be subjected to work under such conditions. The guy records on Neves and mixes on SSLs.


Imagine what the first rage against the machine CD would have sounded like on a fireface? wow, rap rock would have perhaps never been a fad.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #173
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Someone please post a fireface mix which exemplifies "sheen" Let's go, really........... no more it's not the gear it's all mixer talent




no compressors, no effects, no samples just a great raw fireface recording that has that professional sheen.

It's simple really, put you money where your mouth is. It's becoming a broken record here. All talk and no facts.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #174
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Lol..nothing new for me!
lol...I just couldn't find a YouTube link for the classic Martin Sheen hairspray skit from SNL...would put a little perspective to the absurdity of the progression of this thread...
Old 23rd July 2014
  #175
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
Someone please post a fireface mix which exemplifies "sheen" Let's go, really........... no more it's not the gear it's all mixer talent




no compressors, no effects, no samples just a great raw fireface recording that has that professional sheen.

It's simple really, put you money where your mouth is. It's becoming a broken record here. All talk and no facts.
So you are saying if you use a Burl or Prism to record raw with no compressors, eq, effects etc it will have sheen?
Old 23rd July 2014
  #176
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hasbeen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post

It's simple really, put your money where your mouth is. It's becoming a broken record here. All talk and no facts.
You seem to be the one spouting well qualified words of advice and wisdom around here.

Let us hear one of your mixes so we can see how it is done from your prospective.

Surely you have the work to back up your opinions correct?

Put your money where your mouth is???
Old 23rd July 2014
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hasbeen View Post
You seem to be the one spouting well qualified words of advice and wisdom around here.
I merely suggested the op needs a better interface

Quote:
Originally Posted by hasbeen View Post


Surely you have the work to back up your opinions correct?

Put your money where your mouth is???
lol, no......... YOU post a fireface recording that is sonically domineering

it's all on you guys. I stated I have never heard a good fireface recording
I will post a crappy fireface recording I did if you post a good one

I'm serious, someone post a great fireface recording, I will post a really crappy one that I did, I have several bad ones.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
So you are saying if you use a Burl or Prism to record raw with no compressors, eq, effects etc it will have sheen?
No since I have never used a prism. But a burl will give you sheen without any effects...Yes.... Burl gives you sheen as do some other converters. RADAR
2192, HEDD, Apogee AD16x to name a few. They have and inherent smoothness, not "hard" and harsh like cheapo prosumer stuff. Not sure if it is the analog design of it or what?

The cheapo A/D stuff requires more fatsos and compressors and all that nonsense to compensate. Why do you think everything sounds so squashed these days? People just go ape with all those tape sims and modeling nonsenses when all they would have to do is buy a really good front end.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #179
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This thread has been derailed so bad by never ending opinions that it's about lock time P_M
This thread will get no better
Old 23rd July 2014
  #180
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nyandres's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
oh so now it is the gear..........
I said plugins will do (I wrote hardware / hardware SIMULATION). My point being even the $150 plugin will get the Sheen. A 2k converter and 2k hardware compressors while much better is not needed. I have over 20k in hardware and agree that hardware is awesome. But its definitely not the only way to get there.
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