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That Sheen Condenser Microphones
Old 22nd July 2014
  #121
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uptoolate View Post
Ive heard several comments on how warmth and saturation might help. How might I add this? I have basic UAD and Waves plugs plus stock sonar plugs.

And I know this thread meanders off topic, but Im gleaning info anyway. All comments are appreciated.
Put whatever saturation plug you have or even DAW special pedalboard distortion type stuff on an aux send, send some vocal to it and eq the return to compliment the main vocal tone and not get in the way. Then maybe try compressing it pretty hard, although it might already 'lean against the wall' so maybe not, depending. You could then even leave the hipassing the way it is on the main voice and just tuck the saturated one under and a bit fatter. But lost the top boost and start again. The top of the vocal is scratchy, doesn't have to lean forward that much up high.

You could try some micro shift pitch type stuff on most of the vocals to make them bigger. Even a splash of the right chorus on the BV's in the first one maybe.

Try hanging a delay off the main vocal and then hanging the main vocal verb off that instead off straight off the vocal. You'll get away with more wetness without soaking the vocal into submission. Eq the delay and the reverb returns to fit, i.e. lose what is not needed and maybe peak it on a note a little bit so it sings along.

You could also parallel comp the vocal. Either by send or maybe better by copying the track and squashing the ****e out of the new copy, plus eq it to only have the mid excitement. Then fade that in underneath.

Also, with that or a saturation track you can make movement happen by fine control of automation between the tracks to make syllables land with more saturation or less, etc, to shape the travel of the vocal.

So much to try....just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futura2012 View Post
This is an interesting point and yes i mostly agree.

But still lets say now if we placed the OP in absolutely bees knees setup state of the art monitoring, multi thousand $/GBP/euro desk, all the effects you could dream of you get the picture. assuming it was all setup correctly do you think the same recording we are dicsussing would sound polished or no?

On the same note switching back to the Dire Straits Engineer what would be a workable setup ? a fireface800, Sm7B Mackie Monitors? or something with a bit more flavour?
Not really knowing OP skills as an engineer, let's just say
someone who has done some mixes in a home studio environment
(i don't want to offend anyone )
If the guy has a good ear and taste he will definitely benefit
of the ideal monitoring situation, no doubt. And i think this would be
the most important thing. The decisions he'll make will translate well
and he'll be able to make the right one most likely based again, on the fact
that he can actually listen in an ideal environment.
BUT, if he's not familiar with all the toys and gear at disposal
chances are that you get carried away and try to use every compressor
and every effect you can access just because you have them! (this is
a mistake I've made myself the first time I found myself in a million dollar
room).
On the other hand I do believe that limitations for a good engineer
can be good and to have them can push you to experiment
and find workourounds that can translate in cool ideas.
But the mackie monitors and the not ideal room is most likely
what will stop the good engineer to deliver an top level mix
because there's no fix to what you can't ear if your monitoring
system doesn't translate well.
Make sense?
Old 22nd July 2014
  #123
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Hyder boy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Wow...I forgot about that guy - He was definitely a clown! Didn't know his ass from his elbow but he loved spouting off.

It's amazing how the noise from some people is super high but the minute they disappear, it's like they never existed.
And I'm convinced that Future2012 is smoothvibe incognito...
Old 22nd July 2014
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz Noise View Post
Chainrule, don't knock the tech stuff. You don't even know what you're dismissing after all. I know I learnt that stuff in the hope that I could save money and time by understanding the processes that are being undertaken when using various equipment or techniques. While it's yes and no to that part — who doesn't like buying new things, after all? — I feel my technical inclinations have won me more gigs than they've lost me... Except one I saw in the paper last week:
Jazz Noise, don't knock the equipment stuff. You don't even know what you're dismissing after all. I know I learnt how gear works in the hope that I could save money and time by understanding the processes that are being undertaken when using various equipment or techniques. While it's yes and no to that part — who doesn't like learning new things, after all? — I feel my technical inclinations have won me more gigs than they've lost me... Except one I saw in the paper last week:
Old 22nd July 2014
  #125
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jstummbillig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Recommending a guy who we know nothing about the rest of his studio to buy a burl is irresponsible IMO.
You. I like you.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #126
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
And
Recommending a guy who we know nothing about the rest of his studio to buy a burl is irresponsible IMO.
And by a guy who never work with one……...
Old 22nd July 2014
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
And by a guy who never work with one……...
If you referring to me, I have two burl units. I can tell you first hand the b2 d/a is a great monitoring tool. Very precise. And FYI.. a great D/A is essential for any serious mix or tracking engineer. You can have the greatest room in the world but if you don't have a great monitoring chain to go along with it, you are wasting your time. If you are making
demo tapes with your bros, cool...... the FF is gonna do the trick. If you release records or make demos for A&R considerations you best look into some professional equipment.
Certainly you don't need any specific unit, but a certain level of quality is required.

By all means every now and again one can get by with cheap equipment if you use a lot of samples and VI, but if you track real rock bands or real r&b and jazz bands, I seriously doubt day in and day out you can obtain consistent quality with cheap gear. Not to mention if you charge money for your services it's your obligation to provide your customers with top of the line signal chains. This is of course in addition to your expertise and skill set to make sure you operate this gear properly. Are you guys making records? or demos for you buddies to listen to? Just curious, because it doesn't appear based on the replies that anyone but maybe 1 or 2 guys here are serious accomplished AEs or studio managers.

Firs thing you do is build a great set of rooms. #2 is you make sure you signal chain is the best it can be. This is how professional studios operate. You charge money, be prepared to spend money to deliver the best quality possible equipment.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #128
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
If you are making
demo tapes with your bros, cool...... the FF is gonna do the trick. If you release records or make demos for A&R considerations you best look into some professional equipment.
Certainly you don't need any specific unit, but a certain level of quality is required.
Are you for real? You reckon a FF isn't even up to a demo that will end up with A&R? Sorry, but what a load.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #129
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
If you referring to me, I have two burl units. I can tell you first hand the b2 d/a is a great monitoring tool. Very precise. And FYI.. a great D/A is essential for any serious mix or tracking engineer. You can have the greatest room in the world but if you don't have a great monitoring chain to go along with it, you are wasting your time. If you are making
demo tapes with your bros, cool...... the FF is gonna do the trick. If you release records or make demos for A&R considerations you best look into some professional equipment.
Certainly you don't need any specific unit, but a certain level of quality is required.

By all means every now and again one can get by with cheap equipment if you use a lot of samples and VI, but if you track real rock bands or real r&b and jazz bands, I seriously doubt day in and day out you can obtain consistent quality with cheap gear. Not to mention if you charge money for your services it's your obligation to provide your customers with top of the line signal chains. This is of course in addition to your expertise and skill set to make sure you operate this gear properly. Are you guys making records? or demos for you buddies to listen to? Just curious, because it doesn't appear based on the replies that anyone but maybe 1 or 2 guys here are serious accomplished AEs or studio managers.

Firs thing you do is build a great set of rooms. #2 is you make sure you signal chain is the best it can be. This is how professional studios operate. You charge money, be prepared to spend money to deliver the best quality possible equipment.
What you write look like you saw that in some audio magazine.
And your saying about the RME FF800 sound as you never heard one
in your life…. sorry dude, i' m done with the Trools
Old 22nd July 2014
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
What you write look like you saw that in some audio magazine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
And your saying about the RME FF800 sound as you never heard one
in your life….
I had 2 firefaces. I sold my original and bought a second because I thought the first one was broke it sounded so bad. Come to find out that's the way it sounds.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Are you for real? You reckon a FF isn't even up to a demo that will end up with A&R? Sorry, but what a load.
Yes I am for real. This is my opinion. I could be wrong. But this is the way I feel about it.

I will state it again, part of the reason these mixes here sound the way they do is because of the interface. They have the hard harsh digital sound synonymous with a FF
Old 22nd July 2014
  #132
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uptoolate View Post
Ive heard several comments on how warmth and saturation might help. How might I add this? I have basic UAD and Waves plugs plus stock sonar plugs.

And I know this thread meanders off topic, but Im gleaning info anyway. All comments are appreciated.
Cool, I'm glad you're at least skimming through still and cherry picking the useful stuff.

If you have nice plugs like that, just use characterful EQ/compressors instead of bland ones at most of your stages. Push them a little hard until they "mess" with the sound, so you hear some distortion/graininess or colour to it. So it sounds different when bypassed (just a little), rather than only cleanly EQ'd or compressed. It may seem weird to change a sound that you want pure, but when you play it with the mix, it can sit better.

If using those plugins isn't enough, you can do more like was mentioned previously, such as adding specific saturation (tape simulator, tube "warmth/distortion" type plugins) plugins somewhere in the chain. Again, turn the knobs while the mix is running to see when it sounds right, you may be surprised how aggressive it actually is when solo'd!

Saturation helps things blend together and can make it sound like a "record". Also, on certain sources it can add necessary high end. It adds harmonics that can be up in the air frequencies, and this can be some of that sheen if done right. It takes practice, but it's a tool to learn. Little bits of it on multiple sources (using different types of plugins usually) is better than more of it across one thing or the whole mix (unless it's done for a specific purpose).

There are more ways to do this like with parallel processing and such, like mentioned previously. There's lots of tutorials on this around, now that you know keywords and concepts to search for!
Old 22nd July 2014
  #133
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Vintageidiot's Avatar
Everyone got rest? Ok, so we're back at it today? Productivity at an all time high.......
Old 22nd July 2014
  #134
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uptoolate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintageidiot View Post
Everyone got rest? Ok, so we're back at it today? Productivity at an all time high.......
Yes...i love it when some of u get all mad at each other..its funny...lol.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #135
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Unclenny's Avatar
This is actually a good thread.

Just enough family bickering to keep things spicy and plenty of gems from real folks to keep a guy like me coming back to learn more.

Old 22nd July 2014
  #136
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hasbeen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
This is my opinion and I stand by it. I could be wrong. But this is the way I feel about it.
Regardless of any impressions one may have about a fellow member here, the above statement usually trumps all others.

Most important is "I could be wrong" And it applies to all.


Thanks for the reminder chain rule

Old 22nd July 2014
  #137
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code green's Avatar
Listening to the mixes in post #31, what I'm hearing right off the bat are instrumental and vocal elements fighting for frequency space. That, to me, is the biggest consideration. One could debate some of the instrumentation choices or whether the mic is suited to your voice, but...even with those things sorted, I feel some judicious subtractive EQ--to cut harsh frequencies and to give each element its own space in the sonic spectrum--would get you a lot closer to the "sheen" you're going for.

Once you do that, you may find that there's some separation and space that needs filling--that's where creative use of ambience and some degree of bus compression can be your friends.

But first thing I wanted to do on listening (and I like the tunes and their vibe) was reach for the EQ.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post

I had 2 firefaces. I sold my original and bought a second because I thought the first one was broke it sounded so bad. Come to find out that's the way it sounds.
Are you sure that your firefaces weren't broken? That is sure what it sounds like... Still waiting for those clips.

Or perhaps you ran something way too hot through them...

Quote:
a great D/A is essential for any serious mix or tracking engineer.
No it isn't. (if by great you mean the top of the line stuff).
Old 22nd July 2014
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden View Post
Still waiting for those clips.
The burden of proof is on you , I don't have to prove they sound bad, you have to prove they sound good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden View Post
Are you sure that your firefaces weren't broken?
2 different ones? doubt it but anything is possible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden View Post
Or perhaps you ran something way too hot through them...

nope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden View Post
No it isn't. (if by great you mean the top of the line stuff).
You really do need high quality stuff.

It seems like this is turning into a low end vs highend. Which was not my intention. I can say through experience the FF is a subpar unit and is not capable of consistent high quality results. You can do ok recordings with them if you sample drums and cover things up with compression and virtual plugins, but you are not going to make a high quality fx free organic recording with one.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #140
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burns46824's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptoolate View Post
hmmm...not sure i would agree with that...about my conversion being the issue

really?

what do others think of that?
Processing ITB = won't give you a world class sound, IMO.
Fireface 800 = this is a "beginners" converter

I've started to achieve that "next level" sound with my mixes in the past year. It's taken a damn long time to get there. I'm not to Thriller yet or anything, LOL, but I'm certainly getting somewhere. Here are my biggest tips:

1) Mix on a premium analog console with quality outboard
2) Cut vocals in an acoustically treated room
3) EQ upon tracking - cut out as much low end as possible, too
4) Use Mogami cables (or Evidence Lyrics)
5) Upgrade your converters. Try Orion 32 + 10M clock. This is where you should spend your money above all else!
6) Keep your masters quiet. Send them to Bob Ludwig.

Anyone who disagrees, I will gladly post an example of my mixes...
Old 22nd July 2014
  #141
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Unclenny's Avatar
And the beat goes on.....
Old 22nd July 2014
  #142
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post
And the beat goes on.....
Old 23rd July 2014
  #143
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by burns46824 View Post
Processing ITB = won't give you a world class sound, IMO.
Fireface 800 = this is a "beginners" converter

I've started to achieve that "next level" sound with my mixes in the past year. It's taken a damn long time to get there. I'm not to Thriller yet or anything, LOL, but I'm certainly getting somewhere. Here are my biggest tips:

1) Mix on a premium analog console with quality outboard
2) Cut vocals in an acoustically treated room
3) EQ upon tracking - cut out as much low end as possible, too
4) Use Mogami cables (or Evidence Lyrics)
5) Upgrade your converters. Try Orion 32 + 10M clock. This is where you should spend your money above all else!
6) Keep your masters quiet. Send them to Bob Ludwig.

Anyone who disagrees, I will gladly post an example of my mixes...
I imagine in this long time, you've done lots of mixing, learned some tricks, and improved your skills?

I wonder how much of the improvement is due to that...

Gear matters, yes. But until a certain level, improving your techniques matters a whole lot more. That's the reason why so many people think this thread has gone in the wrong direction.

(And those pieces of gear are not within reach for a vast majority of us)
Old 23rd July 2014
  #144
007
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007's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
If you are making
demo tapes with your bros, cool...... the FF is gonna do the trick. If you release records or make demos for A&R considerations you best look into some professional equipment.
Certainly you don't need any specific unit, but a certain level of quality is required.
Oh my.

I'm sitting here with a few producers/engineer friends and we're all a bit dumbfounded reading this.
Your opinion is yours, yes you're totally entitled to it, though we pretty much entirely disagree.

Hearing the OP's tracks, it is clearly just a matter of mixing, judicious eq and creating the right space for each element.
I've been in that position, many of us have, and I never, ever blamed my interface, which currently is an original Apogee Duet.
I listened to problematic mixes on different systems, took notes, rolled up my sleeves, did a 'save-as' and went right back to it.
Sure, a better, high-end interface world be sweet, but again, my Duet was never the problem, it was me.
A Burl would not have made the mix that much better, trust me, and I'm not exactly new at this either and I do know better.

Proper monitoring, understanding how and when to use compression, knowing what to listen for when eq'ing, gain-staging with plugins, song and arrangement, etc.
All of the above have much more of an impact these days than the common interfaces and their more-than-decent conversion.

I've heard pro recordings done on ****tier gear than that, believe me, recordings with vibe, with soul, done on shoestring equipment in a ****ty room with ****ty monitors.
Know your gear, know your monitors, know your interface, strengths and weaknesses of each, etc.
Seriously, it's a problem with many greener peeps, they buy all this stuff but don't really know how to use it properly.

Understand your gain-staging, understand what your levels mean ITB, all these little things can greatly contribute to better sounding recordings.


Blaming the Fireface. Please.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burns46824
5) Upgrade your converters. Try Orion 32 + 10M clock. This is where you should spend your money above all else!

Anyone who disagrees, I will gladly post an example of my mixes...


Quote:
Originally Posted by burns46824 View Post
Processing ITB = won't give you a world class sound, IMO.
4) Use Mogami cables (or Evidence Lyrics)

(Just when I thought this couldn't get any worse - it's the cables man, the cables!)


Some good mixing advice have been given here, but no amount of mixing is going to put life to that guitar track or fix that very fake and plastic/clingy sounding digital piano.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #146
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Quote:
Anyone who disagrees, I will gladly post an example of my mixes...
Anyone with half a clue can get descent results by throwing a bunch of money at it, but you dont need any of that stuff to make great mixes.

Quote:
Fireface 800 = this is a "beginners" converter
Post proof or its not true.

Quote:
Upgrade your converters. Try Orion 32 + 10M clock. This is where you should spend your money above all else!
If you dont have "a great monitoring set-up" in your better mixing guide you have given poor advice. It IS indisputably #1....but telling people that converters is THE most important part of the chain is just plain bad advice and misinformed.

I get a laugh out of these guys who "slipped and fell" out in front of Walmart and spent their settlement money on gear thinking that makes them an ME.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #147
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nyandres's Avatar
Im surprised by how many hear rely so much on their equipment.

A top of the line interface is not a must, nor is analog equipment. I can and did get that Sheen out of headphones, a lot of plugins (althoug some great ones), and a good mic of course. Now I can get an even better sound much more easily as I feel my equipment does a lot of the work for me. But this statements that pretty much $2k plus pieces of gear are needed to get a great mix with Sheen are invalid and lazy. I could get the sound of a highly polished track out of 1k worth of equipment. The engineer just has to know how to overcome his limitations and experiment a bit more.

Examples.
Guitar: A pod X3 sounds great recorded but needs a lot of taming of harsh frequencies to have that sound. Through careful reductive EQ and some external saturation it can sound like a record. Using the Kemper I still have to do some reductive EQ, or even when using a microphone. But the sound needs less of the additional enhancement as there is more richness already in there.
Vocals: I've taken dull vocals.. Melodyne and Noveltech vocal enhancement along with some character plugins can get a dull vocal to sound like a record. Now... by dull i mean the equipment was not the best... not that the recording was really bad. Nothing can fix a performance that was done badly wether on the performers or recording engineers side. Now if I record them myself I don't need to fix em.

So yeah good equipment will sound better with a great engineer. Good budget equipment will however sound better with a great engineer if compared to great equipment with a just good engineer.

Now as I said before experiment with some mid side EQ and multiband compression techniques. I am pretty certain those will get you much closer. I do use a lot of outboard hardware and a symphony IO, and it helps. But I won't attribute most of the sound to my equipment.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #148
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12tone's Avatar
 

I know this is 'gearslutz'..I get that, and there's nothing wrong with slutty feelings for high end gear(guilty as charged), but,

those who are convinced that the only way to produce good results, or have a 'record sound', or 'that sheen' is by the way of specific gear (and usually on the higher end of the spectrum) are friggin' idiots (no doubt talent-less idiots at that).

No two ways about it, it's a perversion of common sense, and exhibits shortcomings and insecurities in myriad other areas...
Old 23rd July 2014
  #149
Quote:
Originally Posted by burns46824 View Post
Processing ITB = won't give you a world class sound, IMO.
Fireface 800 = this is a "beginners" converter

I've started to achieve that "next level" sound with my mixes in the past year. It's taken a damn long time to get there. I'm not to Thriller yet or anything, LOL, but I'm certainly getting somewhere. Here are my biggest tips:

1) Mix on a premium analog console with quality outboard
2) Cut vocals in an acoustically treated room
3) EQ upon tracking - cut out as much low end as possible, too
4) Use Mogami cables (or Evidence Lyrics)
5) Upgrade your converters. Try Orion 32 + 10M clock. This is where you should spend your money above all else!
6) Keep your masters quiet. Send them to Bob Ludwig.

Anyone who disagrees, I will gladly post an example of my mixes...
Please do - there's a forum for it!

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but you're mixing up "I can't do it" with "it's not possible".

'Cos I can name a fair few records mixed all/mostly itb that have sold a whole lot more than anything you or I have done. That pharrell chap sold a few I think...that's mostly itb I believe. Just by way of example.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #150
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
Oh my.

I'm sitting here with a few producers/engineer friends and we're all a bit dumbfounded reading this.
Your opinion is yours, yes you're totally entitled to it, though we pretty much entirely disagree.

Hearing the OP's tracks, it is clearly just a matter of mixing, judicious eq and creating the right space for each element.
I've been in that position, many of us have, and I never, ever blamed my interface, which currently is an original Apogee Duet.
I listened to problematic mixes on different systems, took notes, rolled up my sleeves, did a 'save-as' and went right back to it.
Sure, a better, high-end interface world be sweet, but again, my Duet was never the problem, it was me.
A Burl would not have made the mix that much better, trust me, and I'm not exactly new at this either and I do know better.

Proper monitoring, understanding how and when to use compression, knowing what to listen for when eq'ing, gain-staging with plugins, song and arrangement, etc.
All of the above have much more of an impact these days than the common interfaces and their more-than-decent conversion.

I've heard pro recordings done on ****tier gear than that, believe me, recordings with vibe, with soul, done on shoestring equipment in a ****ty room with ****ty monitors.
Know your gear, know your monitors, know your interface, strengths and weaknesses of each, etc.
Seriously, it's a problem with many greener peeps, they buy all this stuff but don't really know how to use it properly.

Understand your gain-staging, understand what your levels mean ITB, all these little things can greatly contribute to better sounding recordings.


Blaming the Fireface. Please.
You come across as someone who really knows a lot about recording and understands just what it takes to get a great professional mix.
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