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That Sheen Condenser Microphones
Old 27th July 2014
  #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
There you go.
So while some posters mock the thought that this thread has turned into a skill vs. gear debate, it can't be stressed enough.
That song, in the hands of a great mixing engineer, using great monitors in a great room, even mixed through a FF, can certainly be 'on par' with the big guns.
Bingo!
Old 27th July 2014
  #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
MOTU better in terms of sound quality than RME?

That's a new one...
Many of the MOTU products are better than FF. To be clear I'm not making claims about ALL rme stuff just the FF. Some of the RME stuff is very good not that I am an authority on it .
Old 27th July 2014
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
[I]
That song, in the hands of a great mixing engineer, using great monitors in a great room, even mixed through a FF, can certainly be 'on par' with the big guns.
what proof do you have of this assertion? speculation.
Old 27th July 2014
  #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arichlsss View Post
That sparse of a production needs a treated room
Do we really know this? not all rooms are inherently bad. Lot's of bands recorded in untreated rooms, Zep, Stones, Deep Purple all have huge records done in untreated spaces. But what they did have is a great tape a machine and a great Helios console


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arichlsss View Post
and stellar mic before even thinking about conversion IMHO
Not sure about this either. His rode mic is great. Why are you guys so hung up on mics? Mics don't matter in the sense that you only need a $99 sm57 to get pro results. Pretty much and cheap modern mic can yield great results. This guy has more than good enough mics. They are not holding him back. His interface is not the same quality of his mics though. His mics are much better. He also has great preamps with the UA.

Shouldn't a "skilled" engineer be able to get great sounds with cheap mics in untreated rooms??? I would hope so. That's not to say acoustics aren't important they are #1 behind source sound...

I'd like to know just how 'bad" his room is. We have no real proof of this. An untreated room is not necessarily a bad sounding room. Also we don't really know what this guys skill set is all about. It's all speculation. People are making negative assumption about his talents, that is not right or polite. But I can just listen to his mixes and hear a cheap converter, hopefully you guys can too, or will be able to at some point in your careers.
Old 27th July 2014
  #455
007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
what proof do you have of this assertion?
Why does everything have to be about proof.

Sure, I don't have a FF, never used one, but it can't be worse than say, a Digi002's converters.

I remember when Grizzly Bear were recording their debut album - in their apartment no less - it was all tracked and mixed on a Digi002.
I think that album, which to my ears sounds amazing, did quite well for them and what was to follow.
Chris Taylor, one of the members who told me this, happens to be an excellent producer/engineer/musician with great ears.

When you know what to listen for, be it at tracking and/or mixing, the results can be astounding.

Now, we often get told "don't believe everything you read on the internet, much less take gear reviews too seriously", but below are some, just some, thoughts about the FF 800.

My guess is the units you had just happened to be lemons.

RME Fireface

RME Fireface 800 | Sweetwater.com

RME Fireface 800

edit: forgot to mention, I actually DID own a Digi002 (and an 001 prior to it) for years, never liked it and my mixes were mediocre at best.
Not the 002'a fault, I just wasn't a very good mixer back then, didn't know much about gain-staging in DAWs, basically didn't quite know how to best use the tools I had at my disposal.

In 2008 I went and bought an Apogee Ensemble, much much better converters on that puppy, yet my mixes stil didn't sound 'on par'.
I treated the room with bass traps and panels from GIK, bought some KRK V6 II monitors, a Chandler Germanium pre to track with, etc, basically paved my yellow brick road to mixing heaven. Not the Ensemble's fault, I simply was - still - making many mixing mistakes, and not the good kind, despite the fancy and pricey boutique plugins, etc.
Boy was I baffled at the time, all this great gear, damn, nearly dropped $2k on this interface and my mixes are still so 'meh', but whyyyyyyyyyy...


And finally, let me somewhat "meet you halfway" in this seemingly endless thread.
Yes, while having great conversion, such as a Burl, UA 2192, or whatever other soupe-du-jour unit can greatly enhance the listening experience, thus leading to more accurate, or judicious mixing decisions, zooming out a bit from all that has been discussed so far (and nearly forgetting what we were discussing in the first place), I can only stand firm on my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion), that in the context of the very first post from the OP, and having listened to the songs he posted, a better converter may have helped somewhat, but it certainly was not the '100% deal breaker' you made it out to be.
Old 27th July 2014
  #456
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
MOTU better in terms of sound quality than RME?

That's a new one...
Yeah. As a (mostly satisfied) MOTU 828mkII owner for the last decade, I'd have to say that I always got the impression that RME had better word of mouth around these parts on the sound quality front, at least as of a few years ago.

I'm not offering an opinion on actual sound (since I've got very limited exposure to RME, none of it really working experience); I will say to MOTU's credit that they've been (so far) quite good about keeping drivers updated and working for my decade-old unit (in XP and Win7). It does/did have two of the crappiest mic/inst pre's ever, but they stopped working a few years back, apparently, anyhow. I never really used them, so no big loss but, you know, worth noting in the big picture and a bit annoying on general principle. But, at 10 years down the road, the fact that the drivers have stayed updated and working is a much, much bigger deal.
Old 27th July 2014
  #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
Why does everything have to be about proof.
well everyone is asking for proof from me so I figured I'd just mention it to be fair. Maybe it is justfied before you can 100% consider someone's opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
Sure, I don't have a FF, never used one, but it can't be worse than say, a Digi002's converters.
It is worse and 002s aren't great


Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
I remember when Grizzly Bear were recording their debut album - in their apartment no less - it was all tracked and mixed on a Digi002.
I think that album, which to my ears sounds amazing, did quite well for them and what was to follow.
Chris Taylor, one of the members who told me this, happens to be an excellent producer/engineer/musician with great ears.
I thought they recorded on 4 track cassettes? 002 is not great but there have been lots of records done on them lot's of records that sound decent too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
When you know what to listen for, be it at tracking and/or mixing, the results can be astounding.
I agree and one of the things you have to listen for is gear quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
Now, we often get told "don't believe everything you read on the internet, much less take gear reviews too seriously", but below are some, just some, thoughts about the FF 800.

My guess is the units you had just happened to be lemons.

RME Fireface

RME Fireface 800 | Sweetwater.com
First rule in being a consumer is never take any advice in magazines or published literature that works based on ad revenue, caveat emptor

Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
But If I could write a review on this and I could say it sounds bad and give it 1 star.... So what does it prove? People will go out of their way to hype something to justify their purchase, but people are not generally going to waste their time slamming something writing a review. I despise the FF but I would never write an official negative review. On the flip side I love Burl and RADAR but I wouldn't waste my time writing a positive review. Their results speak for themselves and as of yet we have not heard any actual FF results. Coincidence?


One thing is for sure NEVER listen to a gear salesman, online gear pimps or a published reviews like in SOS ... They make more money on ad revenue they are not going to slam companies that take out ads and pay them.


Take any opinion with a grain of salt, but consider it could be factual, then do your own research and make a sound decision that works for YOU. I bought FF based on reviews I read..... So I can surely be a sucker. But live and learn. I bought Burl based on reviews I read, It worked out great for me. Ironically when I was buying my fireface the salesman said he thought I would be better off buying something more high quality..... I thought he was just commission pimping, but in this case he was right. So it can go both ways. You have to do intense research and confide in people you trust. I don't expect anyone to listen to my opinions and make decisions off them, but that doesn't mean I can't express my POV........... Take it with a grain of salt...

I could very well be a talentless uniformed chump. Then again I could be someone who knows a thing or two???. Based on replies in this thread I am definitely seen as talentless uniformed chump. so maybe for fun I will start recommending FF and say they ARE GRRREAT!!!, let's see how fast people here start flipping and saying they sukk




I officially recommend FF they are great quality!!!


Of course I'm joking with that flip , but catch my drift? it's all perception and hearsay on the net, but that's good in the sense that there are 3 sides to every story..... yours, mine and the truth. Search for the truth. But considering conflicting points of view is key to finding the truth. No one is right 100% of the time and especially with gear, it is a very subjective topic as is music production.
Old 27th July 2014
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 View Post
If in reference to my comments, I think my post was misunderstood, or simply unclear.
I got what you meant, but I wanted to air the idea that we need to judge this soley on its merits. Pop mixes are pop mixes.

In my own mind I'd say your average pop mix has overly loud vocals, distracting amounts of compression and an aggressive upper mid range emphasis. But if I've to mix some pop tunes, I'll probably end up doing more of those because that's the nature of that format. I did location recording last week and the mix had little processing because it required that.

No one has pulled up any actual test data on the RME FF, not sure why they're entertaining the trolls on an argument that might be false. Just cause someone says "Science isn't art" doesn't mean that that's true, that they're not a troll or just simply not misinformed.
Old 27th July 2014
  #459
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chainrule

It's best sometimes to be self effacing in a sincere manner...and also maybe once in a while acknowledge it's OK to be wrong with a statement or an opinion,

<DELETED BY MODERATOR>
Old 27th July 2014
  #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
It is worse and 002s aren't great
How do you quantify this? I remember owning a FF and it was somewhat dry sounding and definitely small-ish on the bottom end. I recall 002's as more round bodied but instead to feel like they have a duvet over them as far as definition. Never A/B'd them , but....

Still comes back to if you can work within a 002's issues and pull out something useful the other end I really don't see why you can't with a FF. Just different issues to make up for.
Old 27th July 2014
  #461
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kafka's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
chainrule

It's best sometimes to be self effacing in a sincere manner...and also maybe once in a while acknowledge it's OK to be wrong with a statement or an opinion,

rather than trying to stop the leak in the dyke with one finger in perpetuity (the impending metaphorical flood being your immortalization as village idiot supreme by a torrent of rational rebuttals)
But trolls don't do that.
Old 27th July 2014
  #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
chainrule

It's best sometimes to be self effacing in a sincere manner...and also maybe once in a while acknowledge it's OK to be wrong with a statement or an opinion,

rather than trying to stop the leak in the dyke with one finger in perpetuity (the impending metaphorical flood being your immortalization as village idiot supreme by a torrent of rational rebuttals)
we are just making conversation here It's just for fun mostly, I think most people realize the debate will never end, as most debates never do. So put your thesaurus down and stop insulting me.

But it would be nice to hear some major label FF recordings, I'll tell ya that.
Old 27th July 2014
  #463
007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
so put your thesaurus down and stop insulting me.
Old 27th July 2014
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
we are just making conversation here It's just for fun mostly, I think most people realize the debate will never end, as most debates never do. So put your thesaurus down and stop insulting me.
It is hard to put something down that I never had up in the first place...nevertheless my apologies if your feelings were hurt by my circumlocution...

<DELETED BY MODERATOR>
Old 28th July 2014
  #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
circumlocution...
great word dude

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
it ain't about the FF800, only a friggin'
and we know this how? exactly? because the consensus says so?
well what is our actual sample size here? and what is the precise number of subjects making assertions within this statistical sample that are FF owners?
Old 28th July 2014
  #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
People are making negative assumption about his talents, that is not right or polite.

.
Im not really hearing folks knock my skills in a negative way. Mostly constructive tips and encouragement. Which I appreciate.
Old 28th July 2014
  #467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
I was thinking the same thing yesterday but seek and destroy the"skill" keyword . I mean after all this forum is called "So much gear, so little time!"
I was thinking that you are seriously outside your element.
Old 28th July 2014
  #468
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
great word dude


and we know this how? exactly? because the consensus says so?
well what is our actual sample size here? and what is the precise number of subjects making assertions within this statistical sample that are FF owners?
It's not about the ff because there's far bigger obvious issues with the first 2 mixes posted. Issues that are more noticeable than "slight brittleness due to poor conversion".

Many people have already mentioned this! As uptoolate mentions, it's all been in the interests of helping/constructive too.
Old 28th July 2014
  #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I was thinking that you are seriously outside your element.
I am outside my element, I should just stay in the high end forum.
Old 28th July 2014
  #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
I am outside my element, I should just stay in the high end forum.
So everything that you so arrogantly proclaimed yet were refuted overwhelmingly and steadfastly by throngs is merely due to your misplacement in a low brow section?
Old 28th July 2014
  #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
well everyone is asking for proof from me so I figured I'd just mention it to be fair. Maybe it is justfied before you can 100% consider someone's opinion?

I could very well be a talentless uniformed chump. Then again I could be someone who knows a thing or two???.
.
I believe you offered to post one of your mixes early on. Im wondering why you have yet to.?

I dont mean a FF mix. I mean some of your best work. I for one would appreciate seeing just how much better your burl sounds than my humble FF. Ive shown you mine...now show me yours chainrule. lol

Yes..I am officially calling you out! lol
Old 28th July 2014
  #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptoolate View Post
I believe you offered to post one of your mixes early on. Im wondering why you have yet to.?

I dont mean a FF mix. I mean some of your best work. I for one would appreciate seeing just how much better your burl sounds than my humble FF. Ive shown you mine...now show me yours chainrule. lol

Yes..I am officially calling you out! lol
The burl is 10x better than a fireface, go to highend and ask around, don't take my word for it.

I can't post any of my "best" since I haven't yet done my best work yet..... but my most decent work I don't own the songs, But I have some bedroom demos I did with the fireface I would gladly post no problem, but only if all these people slamming me post some of their work.

I was just trying to help you out. The reason your mixes have problems is because you can't really hear what's going on due to your interface. It's holding you back. I can't be anymore clear. You are not accurately hearing your sources, you are not accurately tracking them because the FF is not accurate, and you are not able to mix them properly due to the inaccuracy of the FF. It is murky and not a smooth unit. It is not a pro unit. It is a consumer interface. So it's tough to consistently get good results with it.

If someone post something recorded 100%,on a FF no samples no VI, I will post a few songs I did with mine in my bedroom. But I will tell you upfront my FF mixes don't sound any better than yours. Perhaps they aren't even as good.
Old 28th July 2014
  #473
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
The burl is 10x better than a fireface, go to highend and ask around, don't take my word for it.
No one is disagreeing the Burl is "better". The point is that buying something along the lines of a burl isn't going to fix the main issues with the posted tracks. The OP is looking for help with that primarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
I can't post any of my "best" since I haven't yet done my best work yet
Your "best" work is the best work you've already done, not the stuff you might do in future. Call it a "personal best"...this you certainly can do!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
..... but my most decent work I don't own the songs,
So who does? where are they? most bands get their material to youtube/spotify/itunes/bandcamp etc. I don't own the rights to post any UNRELEASED material, but I certainly can post links to major label stuff, even though I don't own it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
But I have some bedroom demos I did with the fireface I would gladly post no problem, but only if all these people slamming me post some of their work.
No one is "slamming" you or your abilities. They are taking issue with the thought that conversion is the biggest issue with the posted mixes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
I was just trying to help you out. The reason your mixes have problems is because you can't really hear what's going on due to your interface. It's holding you back. I can't be anymore clear. You are not accurately hearing your sources, you are not accurately tracking them because the FF is not accurate, and you are not able to mix them properly due to the inaccuracy of the FF. It is murky and not a smooth unit. It is not a pro unit. It is a consumer interface. So it's tough to consistently get good results with it.
I see your argument...but I could correct some of those issues monitoring through my macbook inbuilt audio. I can HEAR them with that conversion; are you telling me the FF isn't even as good as that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
If someone post something recorded 100%,on a FF no samples no VI, I will post a few songs I did with mine in my bedroom. But I will tell you upfront my FF mixes don't sound any better than yours. Perhaps they aren't even as good.
But that's not inherently down to the FF necessarily! My 002 mixes aren't as good as the stuff I'm doing now (with the odd exception). The thing is, I've now got better monitoring, a better studio and hopefully I've improved over the past 5-6 years as well!
Old 28th July 2014
  #474
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code green's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post

I'd like to know just how 'bad" his room is. We have no real proof of this. An untreated room is not necessarily a bad sounding room. Also we don't really know what this guys skill set is all about. It's all speculation. People are making negative assumption about his talents, that is not right or polite. But I can just listen to his mixes and hear a cheap converter, hopefully you guys can too, or will be able to at some point in your careers.
We can hear his room right there on the recordings! There is not a gawdawful amount of horrible flutter...but there is, for example, readily discernible room in the congas in Communion, and it is one of the elements of the track that would clearly benefit from a touch of EQ. So, insofar as the room can be perceived--and it can be, it's right there--there are places where it isn't benefitting the track.

The larger point, though, is that this isn't stuff that people are just making up and throwing out there, to buttress some arbitrary decision to take up the "skills" side of a "skills vs. gear" argument that I don't see anyone but you trying to put forward...this is stuff that people are listening to the track and *hearing*, with a fairly surprising degree of consensus on what the issues might be and some approaches to address them.

On a related note, you keep writing that those who have made suggestions about *actions* the OP might take are bashing his "skills"--while it is clear from reading this thread that those who are suggesting something other than simply buying new gear are weighing in on ways that he might get closer to the *results* that he, himself, wishes to get and feels his mixes fall just short of. On the contrary, I have seen a general appreciation of the OP's skills.
Old 28th July 2014
  #475
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IDK chainrule. I for one would value your strong opinions more if I heard your work.

Do you really have nothing you are proud of to post?

And I understand that you are trying to help me. Much appreciated, as are all comments and opinions.

I would just have a greater respect for you if I heard your work.
Old 28th July 2014
  #476
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An awful lot of time being spent on a squeaky wheel. Not the kind of sheen I'm looking for. Anybody got some oil?



In the mean time, from 1972:

Old 28th July 2014
  #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by code green View Post
The larger point, though, is that this isn't stuff that people are just making up and throwing out there, to buttress some arbitrary decision to take up the "skills" side of a "skills vs. gear" argument that I don't see anyone but you trying to put forward...this is stuff that people are listening to the track and *hearing*, with a fairly surprising degree of consensus on what the issues might be and some approaches to address them.
I guess that settles it then, it's his room. It's not skill or gear. This is good news for him. Room treatment will only cost a few thousand dollars.

IMO what I would do I were him, is I would produce a whole song using no real instruments except voice. And try to get the sound you are looking for.
Using all VI will eliminate the rooms and will essentially eliminate any gear concerns. I realize this is not the goal but it's a starting point.

Then do a second song with a 1 or 2 real acoustic instruments, at this point you can get a better feel for what's really going on. Build upon this foundation.
Build confidence, understand all the elements with eliminating variables such as rooms and gear.
Old 28th July 2014
  #478
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
we are just making conversation here It's just for fun mostly, I think most people realize the debate will never end, as most debates never do.
Most debates that you're involved in never end - I believe that! But some of us are doing more than just making conversation here - we're learning and sharing knowledge. These threads are a record of it for others to read. No one wants to sift through all this repetition. You made your point back on the first page. Cluttering up the thread by endlessly restating the same opinion is not helpful. It's selfish. Everyone already knows that you think the FF sucks and that gear matters more than skills. Duly noted. Give it a rest already. There could still be more good new info coming in this thread. It would be nice if it wasn't lost in the trolling.
Old 28th July 2014
  #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptoolate View Post

You really have nothing you are proud of to post?
not really, I have no pride, and I really don't' feel like I have anything to prove to anyone
Old 28th July 2014
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
Most debates that you're involved in never end - I believe that! But some of us are doing more than just making conversation here - we're learning and sharing knowledge. These threads are a record of it for others to read. No one wants to sift through all this repetition. You made your point back on the first page. Cluttering up the thread by endlessly restating the same opinion is not helpful. It's selfish. Everyone already knows that you think the FF sucks and that gear matters more than skills. Duly noted. Give it a rest already. There could still be more good new info coming in this thread. It would be nice if it wasn't lost in the trolling.
spoken like true gentleman, I will bow out of the thread, this will be my last post. But damn this was fikkin fun
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