The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
That Sheen Condenser Microphones
Old 23rd July 2014
  #271
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Just now looked at this thread for the first time. Read or at least skimmed everything before I listened to the songs. The thing that sticks out for me is that there's a lot less use of delays than I would expect. Maybe none. Makes the vocals, especially, kinda 2-D.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #272
Lives for gear
 
uptoolate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Just now looked at this thread for the first time. Read or at least skimmed everything before I listened to the songs. The thing that sticks out for me is that there's a lot less use of delays than I would expect. Maybe none. Makes the vocals, especially, kinda 2-D.
I think I only used verb...will try some delay.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #273
Gear Head
 
futura2012's Avatar
 

Quote:
-"Communion," in particular, starts to sound a bit static to me as the song unfolds. In both songs, I would seek ways to vary the arrangement and, along with this, perhaps the orchestration as the song progresses, to keep the listener's ears excited and interested. This can be as simple as dropping out static elements here and there (for example, I think I'd drop out the shaker at the end of the first chorus, to start the second verse...bringing it back when it feels right) and can also involve handing off various rhythmic and harmonic duties to different instruments. Perhaps adding another element to the second chorus, for example. Perhaps adding a touch of delay (maybe some Lennon-style slapback?) to the voice here and there, at the end of lines or verses, or just where it sounds right. I think you manage this nicely, btw, with the backing vocals.
This is a great write up btw I 100% agree with these comments not in a nasty way but after listening to Communion for say the 8th time whilst conducting my tests then this statement i would agree with 100%.

Quote:
"Communion," in particular, starts to sound a bit static to me as the song unfolds
Please don't interpret this as totally negative because I like elements of this song and I think the backing is really close to that pro sound you are seeking.

One of my questions here is do you OP or anyone else think this tiring of an arrangement as time progresses contribute to the lack of "sheen"

I think if I were to answer this question myself then I would say YES is does.

Going back to this one but say if I got the dire straits - brothers in arms album and resampled it like i did with communion say through a nasty $4 soundcard would it still have the sheen you require?

its a shame I cant do it but I almost guarantee it would still have sheen
Old 23rd July 2014
  #274
Gear Head
 
futura2012's Avatar
 

Op are you happy to upload any stems?
Old 23rd July 2014
  #275
Lives for gear
 
code green's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by futura2012 View Post

One of my questions here is do you OP or anyone else think this tiring of an arrangement as time progresses contribute to the lack of "sheen"
I meant that only in the sense that (as I went on about at tortuous length ), our sense of "sheen" may be slippery and elastic enough to encompass songs that give off aural excitement.

In the main, though, the observations about static arrangement were mostly the result of listening and throwing in an observation that might be helpful in general, whether sheen-enhancing or not.

Thanks for the kind words, btw.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #276
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uptoolate View Post
I think I only used verb...will try some delay.
It's a powerful tool. More like a giant crate of tools, really.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #277
Gear Head
 
futura2012's Avatar
 

Quote:
I meant that only in the sense that (as I went on about at tortuous length ),
Yes i agree i dont think either of us mean this in a REALLY negative way but to really have a master at your finger tips it should be pleasing to the ears / emotions throughout the entire track from start to finish right?

Quote:
I think I only used verb...will try some delay.
It's a powerful tool. More like a giant crate of tools, really.
Just out of interest could you explain in a bit more detail how you would use delay in say Communion?

To be honest if I was told to use delay on that track I wouldn't know where to start? I find with delay unless I am using it for synth riffs (that sounds good) its all over the place.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #278
Lives for gear
 
code green's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by futura2012 View Post

To be honest if I was told to use delay on that track I wouldn't know where to start? I find with delay unless I am using it for synth riffs (that sounds good) its all over the place.
Brent Hahn will doubtless have his own answer but it was very liberating for me to realize that using delay on, say, vocals, does not mean that it has to be everywhere on the track. Maybe a little slapback at the start of the first word of a phrase (or *some* of the first words--one of my own rules of mixing/arrangement is, as soon as an element/motive is established to the point where it is expected, you want to consider dropping it out)...maybe, on a slower song, a longer delay with a couple of repeats at the end of a phrase (think of how empty "Us and Them" might sound without that tape delay to fill the spaces between the words)...maybe just a very fast delay, no repeats, for thickening on the choruses.

I often use delay to have my cake and eat it too when it comes to putting reverb on a vocal but keeping it forward in the mix--I'll set up a quick slapback delay and put a lot of reverb on *that*, while keeping the original vocal dry.

Generalized advice there, as I'm not in a place where I can play "Communion" right now...and I don't know if Brent Hahn had delay in mind in places other than the vox. I didn't hear the songs as wanting delay when I listened, but I also wasn't really thinking in those terms. It's certainly true that delay can provide a whole set of tools with which to work--serving as everything from an obvious effect to a thickener to a way to add depth and dimension without drowning a track in reverb.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #279
Lives for gear
 
uptoolate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by futura2012 View Post
Op are you happy to upload any stems?
Im in the middle of moving, so I cant at this time.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #280
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by futura2012 View Post
Just out of interest could you explain in a bit more detail how you would use delay in say Communion?
Code Green's post covered a lot of it. Rather than say to do this here and do that there, I'd rather "teach a man to fish" and suggest instead is that you set aside a good chunk of time and simply play around with delays. Experiment. Try them out on different things and learn what all the different controls do. Have fun. In the process you'll develop enough of a feel and an ear for delays that you'll start to hear how other mixers are using them.
Old 24th July 2014
  #281
Gear Addict
 

In addition to the above advice about delays, I just want to say that EQ'ing the return of your reverbs and delays is very, very important. This is the difference between mud/clarity, or cheap/invisible.
Old 24th July 2014
  #282
Lives for gear
 

By the way, if you are interested at what mastering will do to your track you should probably take this to the mastering forum. (Don't worry, I am sure they are just as capable in turning it into a yet a other converter thread).

Here is my quick attempt at "sheen", but the mastering guys will definitely do a lot better.
Attached Files

Sweet Communion - Original.mp3 (6.54 MB, 174 views)

Sweet Communion - Master 256kbps.mp3 (8.43 MB, 179 views)

Old 24th July 2014
  #283
Lives for gear
 
Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptoolate View Post
Even the strong opinions of Chainrule cause me to stop and think, so thats a good thing.

Besides, this thread would have died long before now w o the controversy.
This is such an interesting thread......for that reason alone. I have picked up some great insight from all of the very real folks who have taken the time to stick with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
The thing that sticks out for me is that there's a lot less use of delays than I would expect. Maybe none. Makes the vocals, especially, kinda 2-D.
This I agree with.
Old 24th July 2014
  #284
Lives for gear
 
uptoolate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden View Post
By the way, if you are interested at what mastering will do to your track you should probably take this to the mastering forum. (Don't worry, I am sure they are just as capable in turning it into a yet a other converter thread).

Here is my quick attempt at "sheen", but the mastering guys will definitely do a lot better.
Thanks for taking time to do that. Its def louder. Am I also hearing some reverb? Would love to know what you did.
Old 24th July 2014
  #285
Lives for gear
 
uptoolate's Avatar
 

Ok...so ive uploaded one more mix. This one is an old promo I did for a vacation bible school event for my church. I performed and programmed the parts and vocals. Its way silly...meant for kids, so be kind.

I had different coversion at this time. Heres the chain:

NTK
2-610
Distressor (had to sell...miss it)
MOTU 1224 interface
HR 824s
UAD and Waves plug ins

Its way bright, so listen w caution.

Id love thoughts on this, just for kicks.
Attached Files

Big Bee 2004.mp3 (3.30 MB, 141 views)

Old 24th July 2014
  #286
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uptoolate View Post
Ok...so ive uploaded one more mix. This one is an old promo I did for a vacation bible school event for my church. I performed and programmed the parts and vocals. Its way silly...meant for kids, so be kind.

I had different coversion at this time. Heres the chain:

NTK
2-610
Distressor (had to sell...miss it)
MOTU 1224 interface
HR 824s
UAD and Waves plug ins

Its way bright, so listen w caution.

Id love thoughts on this, just for kicks.
This sounds great, with this you have essentially proved everyone here wrong who claims you need to work on your technique. This sounds very professional.
Old 24th July 2014
  #287
Lives for gear
 
uptoolate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
This sounds great, with this you have essentially proved everyone here wrong who claims you need to work on your technique. This sounds very professional.
Well thanks man! I spent more time on this one.

It may be a case of me being too close to it to evaluate it fairly. It sounds harsh and bright to me. But I appreciate the encouragement.
Old 24th July 2014
  #288
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
This sounds great, with this you have essentially proved everyone here wrong who claims you need to work on your technique. This sounds very professional.
I'm only listening through laptop speakers, but I agree - it certainly sounds good to me.

You can't really use this as a way to attack everyone else based on the advice they were giving though! This one sounding good doesn't mean there's not EQ problems on the other tracks. Just because someone nails one particular mix, doesn't mean everything they do is flawless. That goes for the big boys too of course.

Very different style and sound sources....even the vocal performance is totally different, despite it being the same voice.

People give advice based on what evidence is presented before them. If this example had been offered initially, people would have offered different advice!
Old 24th July 2014
  #289
Gear Head
 
futura2012's Avatar
 

Quote:
By the way, if you are interested at what mastering will do to your track you should probably take this to the mastering forum. (Don't worry, I am sure they are just as capable in turning it into a yet a other converter thread).

Here is my quick attempt at "sheen", but the mastering guys will definitely do a lot better.
I definitely hear a nice improvement here oden.

thank you for your time doing this and sharing.

please can you tell us a bit more about what you did, what gear you used. maybe a bit about yourself in terms of are you a pro engineer etc?
Old 24th July 2014
  #290
Lives for gear
 
Lance Lawson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden View Post
By the way, if you are interested at what mastering will do to your track you should probably take this to the mastering forum. (Don't worry, I am sure they are just as capable in turning it into a yet a other converter thread).

Here is my quick attempt at "sheen", but the mastering guys will definitely do a lot better.
Not much more that this needs, if anything at all.
Old 24th July 2014
  #291
Gear Head
 
futura2012's Avatar
 

Quote:
Not much more that this needs, if anything at all.
Do you mean the mastering Oden has done you approve Lance?

Are you a Mastering Engineer yourself? I assume so from this answer
Old 24th July 2014
  #292
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden View Post
By the way, if you are interested at what mastering will do to your track you should probably take this to the mastering forum. (Don't worry, I am sure they are just as capable in turning it into a yet a other converter thread).

Here is my quick attempt at "sheen", but the mastering guys will definitely do a lot better.
Sounds like you just normalized it, it still has a harsh/hard digital sound. There is no more sheen than before. Using an L1 maximizer or a peak limiter is not sheen
Old 24th July 2014
  #293
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

I'd say sell that nasty Rode mic and get a Gefell of sorts, like a second hand UM70s. Foolproof goodness and goodbye to edgy vocals.

As far as delays Kenny Gioia has a great delay tut on Groove3 that is a good basis and generally to play around with short delay times with some feedback and low and hipass filtering and create small spaces that ring and work like small reverbs, only take less space is a good place to go. Gets you plenty 'wetness' without soaking the punch away, like too much reverb does. And generally try to hang the verb on the delay, not all on the vocal itself. A bit of both.

THis tut from Yoad Nevo is also a useful vocal resource. Nothing outrageous, but all useful stuff there to set it up:



Old 24th July 2014
  #294
Lives for gear
 
uptoolate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I'm only listening through laptop speakers, but I agree - it certainly sounds good to me.
Thanks for your encouragement...sometimes Ive wanted to give it up, but not now.
Old 24th July 2014
  #295
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
This sounds great...
Yes, it does. The sounds, the song, the performances… yes, it is a little harsh and bright but it works. All in all a very good day at the office. Well done!

Quote:
… with this you have essentially proved everyone here wrong who claims you need to work on your technique.
That's just silly. And why so antagonistic?
Old 24th July 2014
  #296
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule
… with this you have essentially proved everyone here wrong who claims you need to work on your technique.
That's just silly. And why so antagonistic?
trying to save face I guess? <DELETED BY MODERATOR>...
Old 24th July 2014
  #297
Lives for gear
 
uptoolate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Yes, it does. The sounds, the song, the performances… yes, it is a little harsh and bright but it works. All in all a very good day at the office. Well done!


Thanks man!
Old 24th July 2014
  #298
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
sell that nasty Rode mic
Rode NTK is a great mic, you just have to change the stock tube.

Reminiscing through this thread it's cool how different people's opinions are. See me I would rather have a nice mic pre like a Neve a great converter like a Burl and any then mic will do. Give me an sm 57 or a $100 Audio Technica condenser I don't need any plugins or outboard all I need it great pres and great converters.
The mics don't matter to me since they all work even a 57 on everything and ksm137 on OH.

It seems like you guys are the opposite, you spend all this money on mics and plugins and you run your wonderful sources through firefaces. In the 80s did you guys track on fostex or tascams? I would use nothing less than an MCI, maybe otari if I there was nothing else.

To me, recording medium is the key to pro recordings, since it's the thing doing the actual recording. I think for learning purposes some of you chaps should record a whole CD without using any compression or reverb or other plugins. This will expose any weakness in your chain or your room, and perhaps your technique.
Old 24th July 2014
  #299
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
[...] I would rather have a nice mic pre like a Neve a great converter like a Burl and any then mic will do. [...]


Remember when we were talking about audio signal chains?

If you can't capture the sound, you can't reproduce the sound. And you certainly can't 'enhance' what hasn't been properly captured by applying the supposed positive effect of your 'great converter' -- crappy capture fed into a 'great converter' is still crappy capture. Whether 'transformer-warmed' or not.
Old 24th July 2014
  #300
Gear Head
 
futura2012's Avatar
 

Quote:
If you can't capture the sound, you can't reproduce the sound. And you certainly can't 'enhance' what hasn't been properly captured by applying the supposed positive effect of your 'great converter' -- crappy capture fed into a 'great converter' is still crappy capture. Whether 'transformer-warmed' or not.
Although isn't the idea though all these different mics do actually colour the sound isnt that the whole point? I assume mic A vs mic B isnt a case of the flatter the better but more the warmer or more "nicer sounding" the better?

I do actually use an SM58 and I accept im not producing this kind of music but what I get in is certainly enough for my needs.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump