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Phasx Shadowcaster PX600. WOW! Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 20th July 2014
  #1
Gear Addict
 

Phasx Shadowcaster PX600. WOW!

Check this out guys, studio monitors with stealth technology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HRK_uABS3A
Old 20th July 2014
  #2
Gear Head
 

Wow, that guy is full of sales BS.
Old 20th July 2014
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Wait... a desktop sub woofer? Would that not cause the desk to vibrate like crazy?

And the target thing, would that not affect the sound? And it's just screwed in, would it not resonate?

And why are the three speakers set off from each other if that needs to be "corrected" with DSP?

And would that glossy surface not add to the reflextions

And would that weird ramp shaped thing in front of the main driver not affect the sound?

And it kills secondary reflections!? How? The Force?

This video leaves me with more questions than answers.
Old 20th July 2014
  #4
Moderator
 
matt thomas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maldini View Post
Wait... a desktop sub woofer? Would that not cause the desk to vibrate like crazy?

And the target thing, would that not affect the sound? And it's just screwed in, would it not resonate?

And why are the three speakers set off from each other if that needs to be "corrected" with DSP?

And would that glossy surface not add to the reflextions

And would that weird ramp shaped thing in front of the main driver not affect the sound?

And it kills secondary reflections!? How? The Force?

This video leaves me with more questions than answers.
Just going from (my understanding of) the video.

- no more than other speakers with low extension
- probably not noticeably
- that's the whole point of them, so there are no lines from the driver to your ear via reflections on your desk.
- Normally it would, but it seems to be angled to splay reflections away from the listener. Who knows how effective that is though.
- See above
- Kills secondary reflections. I don't believe him on this one.

Interesting concept, but I remain sceptical.

matt
Old 21st July 2014
  #5
Gear Nut
 

This guy sounds extremely full of it...
Old 21st July 2014
  #6
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jitterybit's Avatar
Looks cool. In a vistalite 2001 kinda way. What i got fom "Gav" is that these are $5k monitors for people with no room treatments that want to wear monitors as headphones. This could in theory work just fine, but in that price range the only people who could afford/are interested in them are producerspeople who don't hear room reflections with deep pockets.
Old 21st July 2014
  #7
I would love to know how it is possible to have speakers that can universally match any room without acoustic treatment?
Does that I could set these up in my garage and get mastering.....

I like the mad shape, but I did not feel reassured by the sales guy!

("stealth technology" nice one HOLOSONIX! )
Old 21st July 2014
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOLOSONIX View Post
Check this out guys, studio monitors with stealth technology
Old 21st July 2014
  #9
Gear Addict
 
firubbi's Avatar
very interesting... lets wait till dec14.
looks like KRK ERGO Room Correction System with monitors

Last edited by firubbi; 21st July 2014 at 09:46 AM.. Reason: --
Old 21st July 2014
  #10
Gear Nut
 

"Audiophiles" entering pro audio market.


BTW is that guy like high ?? :D

Those speakers remind me a little bit of Earthworks

Old 21st July 2014
  #11
Quote:
we're removing all reflections from the zone.
I guess the era of monitors that defy the physics of sound hath finally arrived...
Old 21st July 2014
  #12
Here for the gear
 
tuomy's Avatar
Hi All:

I'm Jim Tuomy, the President of Phasx Technologies Inc, and I wanted to answer a few of your well-founded skepticisms about our new line.

Of course the Phasx Shadocaster(tm) system does NOT cancel secondary (or any other) room reflections. That was a misunderstanding on the part of our Director of Sales based on the diffusive effects of the technology.

To start off, the system is intended to be used by one person on a more or less standard desktop. It is absolutely NOT intended for critical listening by anyone else in the room. We did not build the speakers as replacements for existing studio monitors or for any other sort of Speaker except for speakers placed on a desktop as might be used with a PC or MAC-based DAW.

Next, our Shadocaster system is based on the following two acoustic psycho-acoustic principles: 1) The brain tends to add (integrate) sub-5ms reflections to the direct sound and thereby creates comb filtering artifacts, and 2) The brain temporally masks room reflections in the neighborhood of 10ms to 30ms or so in a more or less standard living space in which normal conversation is easy (in other words, not a reverb chamber and not a "tomb").

To repeat, our cabinets certainly do not cancel the room reflections. However, the overall approach drastically reduces comb-filter-causing desktop reflections and provides early diffusion which tends to enhance the ear-brain's ability to mask reflections in a typical domestic room.

The main object of the Shadocaster approach is to cause the earliest strong reflections to be both further delayed in time AND more diffuse since a great deal of the reflected energy was diffused at the source. In that sense (and ONLY in that sense) the speakers can be said to "control" room acoustics because most of the reflections that emanate from the speaker are already diffuse before they hit the walls.

We have several patents pending and in process on the approach.

Anyway, here are some specific answers to specific questions from Maldini:

Quote:
Wait... a desktop sub woofer? Would that not cause the desk to vibrate like crazy?
Ordinarily Yes! But each cabinet of the Px600 cabinets contains an internal 6.5 inch woofer in a 4th order Bandpass enclosure (modified via Linkwitz Transform related DSP). The woofer doesn't move as much as you'd expect due to the 4th order alignment, and it is set at an angle that minimizes vibration in the first place. We do recommend the use of the included Sorbothane feet or an ISO-Acoustics stand where practical.
Quote:
And the target thing, would that not affect the sound? And it's just screwed in, would it not resonate?
The "gun sight" targets were developed over a long period of testing, and the ones shown on the midrange driver do not measurably or audibly diffract over the frequency range of the midrange driver. They are mounted on little rubber isolation sleeves and don't vibrate either audibly or measurably. TO YOUR POINT though, the very similar one we PLANNED to put on the tweeter DID IN FACT DIFFRACT audibly in our final testing, so we are replacing it with a "tiny center ball" type of sight.
Quote:
And why are the three speakers set off from each other if that needs to be "corrected" with DSP?
OK, the DSP is used to correct frequency and time issues with the three drivers, each of which is driven by an individual Hypex nCore amplifier. The DSP could not care less about the relative placement of the drivers. The drivers are aligned via a proprietary measurement approach using the latest generation Audio Precision analyzers (APx Series) GRAS and Earthworks mics, pre's, etc. The separation of tweeter and midrange is NOT meant to time align, but rather to help the process of reflection in the context of the Shadocaster approach.
Quote:
And would that glossy surface not add to the reflextions
We want the reflection! But we also want it to be perfect! It turns out that a rough surface causes a bit more splatter and in our tests did not work quite as well as a smooth surface in this application. We need to do some more advanced measurements on this particular issue, but for now we are sticking with "smooth".
Quote:
And would that weird ramp shaped thing in front of the main driver not affect the sound
The shape HAS to be both very big relative to the diameter of the driver and very close to the driver in order to form an effective reflector at the midrange frequencies. It is REALLY important to note that we are looking for a wide band, diffusive velocity-to-pressure-to-velocity converter here. Note also that the output of the 4th order bandpass is ON the surface of the desktop. At typical working distance, the user is in a constant pressure zone throughout the sub/woofer’s bandwidth.
Quote:
And it kills secondary reflections!? How? The Force?
Again, our Shadocaster technology does not kill secondary reflections. What it does kill is the problems associated with desktop reflections from the audio monitor system in a desktop production scenario. The included electronics package reduces or eliminates the problems associated with getting audio on to and back out of a DAW equipped Personal Computer.

In the coming weeks, we will be publishing lots more data on our web site phasx.com, and we will try our best to answer any questions that might come up here as well.

We really do try to say only what we can prove or at the very least substantiate, and we sincerely hope that you will overlook this particular sales "oops".
Thanks!!
Old 22nd July 2014
  #13
Gear Nut
 

Thanks for the response
Old 22nd July 2014
  #14
Here for the gear
 
tuomy's Avatar
Thanks!

Hi Maldini:
Thanks for giving us the opportunity to correct the mistake.
If you're interested, we will be posting some videos on our web site and on You Tube shortly that will help explain the system more completely.
Thanks Again!
......Jim Tuomy
Old 24th July 2014
  #15
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adogg4629's Avatar
 

I just pray to all that is holy that these things don't come in that god awful red and blue.
Old 24th July 2014
  #16
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tuomy's Avatar
Colors

Quote:
Originally Posted by adogg4629 View Post
I just pray to all that is holy that these things don't come in that god awful red and blue.
Don't worry, the standard colors will be a Satin Black and a Satin Platinum.
Custom colors (basically any automotive finish) will be available on request.
As to the RED and BLUE, we were trying out some guitar/drumset style colors to see how they went over. I doubt you'll be seeing them again any time soon......

Comments, Suggestions, Input are sincerely invited!
Old 24th July 2014
  #17
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adogg4629's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuomy View Post
Don't worry, the standard colors will be a Satin Black and a Satin Platinum.
Custom colors (basically any automotive finish) will be available on request.
As to the RED and BLUE, we were trying out some guitar/drumset style colors to see how they went over. I doubt you'll be seeing them again any time soon......

Comments, Suggestions, Input are sincerely invited!
Thank the lord. I don't think I would be able to pull off the Fischer Price style work desk.

Best

AD
Old 25th July 2014
  #18
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Hokut's Avatar
 

but what was the price mentioned in the video? 49.99 , did he mean $49.99 or $4999?
Old 25th July 2014
  #19
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tuomy's Avatar
Price?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokut View Post
but what was the price mentioned in the video? 49.99 , did he mean $49.99 or $4999?
Hi Hokut:

The system price is US $4995 which includes the I/O Electronics Package. Of course that's way too much money for a pair of desk top speakers, but not (in our opinion) for a system that includes a useful Computer Audio Interface and all sorts of metrics and simulation features.

Anyhow, the quick answer is that the price for a single "standalone" S600 powered monitor will be US $1500. I hope it's OK if I explain why we didn't mention that price in the first place....

At Summer NAMM, we got a lot of (totally unexpected) requests to "unbundle" the I/O Electronics Package and the S600 speakers. Of course, standalone operation means we have to add standalone inputs and system management features (the work being mostly firmware changes that we didn't plan on) to the S600 speaker cabinet. That probably means that we will be shipping the "bundled" orders first, but we will definitely put the needed hardware/connector changes into all the S600's right from the very beginning.

Anyway, first we are going to equip each speaker enclosure with the same balanced input section that's in the I/O Electronics box. Unless folks on this forum think balanced analog is a waste in this application (please let us know what you think!!), we'll stick with the That Corporation InGenius system.

Obviously are also planning on AES/EBU, S/PDIF, & TOSLINK inputs (and some way to manage them) since that requires only a little more than adding the connectors to the cabinet back-plate. Of course we are also going to need to create an APP that will be specific to setting up the S600 speakers in a standalone configuration. Again, we'd really welcome any and all opinions and suggestions and wish-list items on the input types/connectors/resolution, initial setup, etc., etc. We designed the units to be managed as a system rather than individually so we are actively seeking input from the field.

As it happens, the S600 Speaker cabinets have enough DSP power to do the driver/enclosure housekeeping and Low Frequency room correction needed for standalone operation. So the core ADI DSP will remain the same and we'll keep the same three Hypex amplifiers, etc. But we're planning to totally rework the firmware to allow for standalone operation and to accept a wide range of bit rates and depths.

I'm new to this forum, and I just noticed that there is a "New Product" posting section, so we'll try to post all of this sort of detail in that thread sometime in the next few days.

Hokut, thanks for asking! And thanks to everyone for your interest!!

Jim Tuomy
Old 29th July 2014
  #20
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Hokut's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuomy View Post
Hi Hokut:

The system price is US $4995 which includes the I/O Electronics Package. Of course that's way too much money for a pair of desk top speakers, but not (in our opinion) for a system that includes a useful Computer Audio Interface and all sorts of metrics and simulation features.

...

As it happens, the S600 Speaker cabinets have enough DSP power to do the driver/enclosure housekeeping and Low Frequency room correction needed for standalone operation.
...

Jim Tuomy
Hi Jim thanks for the reply

I/O Electronics Package / Computer Audio Interface... Do you mean limited to connecting a stereo signal for the speakers or does the system come with some sort of Multi Inputs/Outs Audio Interface that allows you to connect mage 8 or 16 audio inputs to a computer and also function as a monitor controller for the S6000s as in a complete Audio Interface for a small studio with monitor control, speakers...


"Low Frequency room correction" for stand alone operation... so the speakers will come with something like the KRK ERGO/Other similar solutions... for Low Freq room correction?

Cheers
Old 30th July 2014
  #21
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tuomy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokut View Post
Hi Jim thanks for the reply

I/O Electronics Package / Computer Audio Interface... Do you mean limited to connecting a stereo signal for the speakers or does the system come with some sort of Multi Inputs/Outs Audio Interface that allows you to connect mage 8 or 16 audio inputs to a computer and also function as a monitor controller for the S6000s as in a complete Audio Interface for a small studio with monitor control, speakers...


"Low Frequency room correction" for stand alone operation... so the speakers will come with something like the KRK ERGO/Other similar solutions... for Low Freq room correction?

Cheers
Hi again Hokut:
Yes, the I/O box can bring in up to 16 channels to the DAW simultaneously: 1 pair of quiet balanced analog via That Corp InGenius & VCA, 8 channels of 48kHz/24 bit via ADAT, and 6 channels of stereo PCM via the various digital inputs, all at whatever bit rate/depth you want, as there is a full time ASRC on every digital input.

As a practical matter, we think that the most common uses would be in tracking using the two analog input channels, maybe augmented by the ADAT in.
We tried to put in the best analog inputs possible in order to accommodate, say a "lunch box" vintage mic preamp setup, or maybe the output of a high class analog console...hence the That Corp inGenius.

We built in 8 simultaneously available outputs and we are thinking of expanding that to ten so that we can put in a first class balanced analog output (That Corp "OutSmarts") as well.

Anyway, the point is that you have simultaneous access to as many as 16 input and 10 output channels all of which are available at the ins/outs of whatever DAW you happen to be using.

I looked up the KRK ergo, and yes the operation would be similar in some regards. However we are running the "Monitor Controller" functions through a Smart Phone/Pad APP, and so can handle pretty much all the standard functions along with a whole lot more that we will be putting up on our web site shortly.
We're also working on a new way to implement Low Frequency Room node (more accurately anti-node) compensation in a way that is a light handed as possible.
As you know, in acoustics sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, and we are trying to avoid that whenever possible. As always, we would love to hear about what the community here would like to have on a "One Note Bass " room fixer.

Thanks Again for the question!!
Best!

Jim T
Old 30th July 2014
  #22
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monkeyxx's Avatar
man I want to put those in the trunk of my Honda Civic car
Old 30th July 2014
  #23
Lives for gear
4995 for 6 nc400 ncores and a DLCP? That's a pretty good deal right there if those are the guts...

Looks like an interesting product, personally I favor more of a constant directivity approach and even if it is only one person working, a sweet spot that is as big as possible.
Old 30th July 2014
  #24
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Ribbonmicguy's Avatar
Hi Jim,

I think a standalone PX600 would do well rather than the packaged system.

Most of the users would want a studio monitor do its only purpose. For monitoring.

Most of us already have a high end converter and a transparent monitor controller.

Just my 2 cents.
Old 30th July 2014
  #25
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tuomy's Avatar
nCore Amps and ADI DSP

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
4995 for 6 nc400 ncores and a DLCP? That's a pretty good deal right there if those are the guts...

Looks like an interesting product, personally I favor more of a constant directivity approach and even if it is only one person working, a sweet spot that is as big as possible.
HI RyanC:

We are using three channels of Hypex nCore amplifier in each speaker cabinet, but the modules we use are not the NC400's. That module is intended for the DIY market along with NC1200 (the super high power version).

The modules we use are an OEM only version of nCore that operates at a lower per-channel power level (still plenty to run each driver optimally). Anyway, DIY or OEM, the nCore sound is very compelling to say the least. Here is a link to the Hypex whitepaper http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore%20wp.pdf

We do not use the Hypex DLCP DSP package. I am sure that it's a most capable product, but we write all our own DSP code using the native Analog Devices development tools for their processors and then load in the code at runtime using a dedicated microprocessor in the S600 speaker cabinet. The DSP engine in each of the speaker cabinets also interacts in real time with the more powerful ADI engine that is in the A&D I/O Electronics Package.

Constant directivity is certainly a fine approach, and one which we would have taken if we had not been able to have a custom dome tweeter made. The custom dome combines high power capability and unusually large Xmax with low distortion. The result is that the sweet spot is in fact as big as possible for one person, even though the user is very near the speakers. Or at least we have never had any complaints from our Beta users.

Thanks for the comments!!

Jim T
Old 30th July 2014
  #26
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Naugo's Avatar
 

Ff....Fii....Fiiiveee....Five thousand?

Yikes

That must be $1 for every made up marketing term they're using to try and sell them to you :D
Old 31st July 2014
  #27
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tuomy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy View Post
Hi Jim,

I think a standalone PX600 would do well rather than the packaged system.

Most of the users would want a studio monitor do its only purpose. For monitoring.

Most of us already have a high end converter and a transparent monitor controller.

Just my 2 cents.
Hi Ribbonmicguy:
As I mentioned in a previous post, we are now planning on breaking out the S600 monitor cabinets at $1500 each. We will be creating a new APP to handle fine tuning, LF Room compensation, firmware update, and so forth in stand-alone/stereo configuration.

Thanks for the comment!

Jim Tuomy
Old 31st July 2014
  #28
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voidar's Avatar
 

Quite interesting.
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