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Dynaudio BM6 vs. Mackie HR824
Old 26th November 2003
  #1
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Dynaudio BM6 vs. Mackie HR824

I've had my macks fer like 2.5 years. and i'm beginning to understand what people mean when they say they need time to get used to their speakers to get a good mix on.

And everything seems ok... except that tight snare frequency. And vocals.

Bass, high freq is great, but I cannot, no matter how much time I spend, get that upper mids thing happening.

On my macks, snare sounds great. On every other system, its way too loud. So in order to compensate, i turn it down, but then its too low..

This mythical "sweet spot" is very tiny indeed.

So i was thinging about trading them in for a pair of Dynaudio BM6's. All the reviews i've read have been very positive.

What do y'all think?
Old 26th November 2003
  #2
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I did exactly that ....traded my 824 for BM 6's. Made a big difference with my mix.
The BM 6 are great in a small room you may miss the punch of the Mackie's if you have a big room.


Nick
Old 26th November 2003
  #3
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doug_hti's Avatar
 

it's all in the mids-uppermids (400-1200hz) that I have found a lot of the current monitors having a problem translating...and it's not just because they are a smiley face...IMO that's where a good monitor will show it's colors
Old 26th November 2003
  #4
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Screws's Avatar
 

Same here. I'm primarily a bass player, and I could not get the bass to translate on the Mackies no matter what I did. Frustrating as hell. Vocals were a problem as well.

A good friend loaned me his pair of BM6A's and I've never looked back. Sold the mackies and bought bm6a's of my own and now I can actually judge things.
Old 27th November 2003
  #5
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Saucyjack's Avatar
 

I've had the Mackies for about 2 years as well and still have difficulties at times with the low end at times.....I've never been that impressed with the midrange either.I think the Mackies can translate pretty well but you have to work at it....esp.the low end.I'm sure my room has some inherent problems as well but I'm trying to address that.

The only other decent monitor I've spent any time on is a Genelec 1031?..didn't really impress me much.All in all I think the Mackies are tough to beat for 1k/pair.

I have gone back and forth about snagging some Bm6a's but have yet to hear them....keep wishing for the Adams, but damn 4K is out of my league right now.

To the guys who made the change what are the most noticable differences b/t the Mackies and Dynaudios?
Is it a "no brainer" upgrade.
Old 27th November 2003
  #6
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Re: Dynaudio BM6 vs. Mackie HR824

Quote:
Originally posted by Umlaaat
<SNIP>

On my macks, snare sounds great. On every other system, its way too loud. So in order to compensate, i turn it down, but then its too low..

This mythical "sweet spot" is very tiny indeed.

So i was thinging about trading them in for a pair of Dynaudio BM6's. All the reviews i've read have been very positive.

What do y'all think?
Umlaat
I think the crossover region is what is messing you up. Most 2 ways have big problems at crossover point, lots of stuff goes horribly wrong! Phase shifts, crossover slopes designed for high level rather than best sound, major dips in response at crossover point, wierd impedance stuff in the drivers interacting with everything, edge diffraction from the tweeter, box resonances, ports tuned for TONS of bass (sells speakers man), etc, etc, etc. Most manufacturers would never let you see what is REALLY going on in print, because you would think just about every (2 way at least) speaker has got serious problems. So everyone smooths everything using a low rez chart printer and calls it a day!

Might I suggest a good path to pursue: look closest at those manuf who make (and use) their OWN drivers in their own monitors. This little trick will lead you to the companies that have some inner knowledge (its been my experience). Then you have to assess what the ownership is trying to do with the company: grow it big (money) or make really good monitors? Now you are zeroing in. Now look at what sonically reveals a lot of flaws in a mix, in a track, etc. You are almost there. Now do serious and intensive "translatability" tests. How does a mix on this speaker translate to others? From the mix room to the car, etc. If you can do that, you've found the answer to this age old dilema.

The only wild card that can make this entire process flawed is the room. Its amazingly critical. In the short time I've been messing with ATC's, its saved me (good sounding rooms) and killed me (in screwed up rooms). Looking into what can be done to improve the room will help a great deal with any speaker.

Brad
Old 27th November 2003
  #7
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Re: Re: Dynaudio BM6 vs. Mackie HR824

Quote:
Originally posted by Brad Lunde
...Might I suggest a good path to pursue: look closest at those manuf who make (and use) their OWN drivers in their own monitors. This little trick will lead you to the companies that have some inner knowledge (its been my experience). ...
This is a beginning but the thing I'd look for is a company who has the know-how and gear to cherry-pick the best of a larger manufacturer's drivers. A small company who doesn't have any market for their raw drivers is forced to use most of their production in their own products.
Old 27th November 2003
  #8
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entropy's Avatar
I was in a fortunate position when we went for a monitor upgrade in that I had pretty much everything on the market at that point to a-b at home (adams went there at that stage, unfortunately). I was looking for a couple things in a monitor:
1) good translation to other speakers
2) accuracy at very low levels
3)bass end response as most of the stuff we were doing was dance/ club based.

So after much time spent, we plumbed for the BM6a. They ain't perfect, the mid range sits back a little but the main thing was they had really good translation (at that price). The Mackies are impressive when you first listen to them but the bass end is over the top and this just confuses you. The other point I found with the dyn's is that the my time spent balancing dropped massively, it is immediately obvious where things should be sitting. In retrospect, the Adams and the PMC's probably give them a good run for the money but I don't regret my Dyn purchase.....
jus' my 2 peso's
Old 27th November 2003
  #9
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Another vote for the BM6's - best in their range for sure.
Old 27th November 2003
  #10
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studjo's Avatar
Here's another vote for the BM6A. Very good for their price and in a whole different league than the Wackies.
I know only of one other monitor that I like more at the moment. It's the K&H O300 - unbelievable but quite expensive.

Jo
Old 27th November 2003
  #11
Gear Nut
 
Critic's Avatar
 

Very well said, Slipperman.

I have 3 pairs of monitors (Mackies among them) for the same reason I have almost 2 dozen mics.
There is no truth that involves only one perspective. In audio as in life it is a conglomerate of several perspectives that gets you ever closer to that holy moment of sublime balance.
Old 27th November 2003
  #12
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

This is why Spielberg refuses to edit films using video or computers.

Concepts are often our biggest creative trap. Technology that allows you to easily achieve your concepts always stands in the way of a project developing enough character to make hearing it an event for the listener. Would George Martin and the Beatles have bothered spending the time they took to make Sgt Pepper's if they'd had Pro Tools instead of dubbing back and forth between two four-tracks while compressing the grunt out of everything in a desperate attempt to reign in the tape hiss?

George Martin doesn't think so.
Old 27th November 2003
  #13
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studjo's Avatar
That's one of the reasons why I still got my NS10. They make me mix the vocals and snare at the right volume (for my taste anyway).
But I couldn't tell what the NS10 would make me do until I worked with them for 3 years. That's one point where experience comes in handy - you know what a certain piece of equipement makes you doheh

Jo
Old 27th November 2003
  #14
Gear Addict
 
mitgong's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman
I would like to take this opportunity to tell the Peter Erskine/Tony Williams ride cymbal story.

As a young player Peter idolized Tony(didn't we all?), and went to see him one night at a famous NYC jazz club. The whole show Peter marveled at the wonderful range of textures and timbres of Tony's old K Zildijian ride... The same one he had been playing for quite a few years at this juncture.

After the show, the young Peter got to meet Tony and was thrilled when Tony asked him to amuse himself on the still set-up kit for a few minutes if he liked.

Peter sat down and started to play on what he, as a listener, had always considered to be the "sweetest sounding ride in the world".

Horrible.

It sounded horrible. Just a miserable and lifeless.

A dark old, beat-up piece of spun brass. Very trashy and dead. He was mortified.

Tony was helpless with mirth.

He understood and sypathized with the young players confusion.

He knew it was not only what the player KNEW ABOUT playing that particular instrument, BUT ALSO WHAT THE INSTRUMENT BROUGHT OUT in the player. What it CAUSED him to do during the course of playing it.

I work on 4 sets of monitors in every mix that I do.

1 farfield pair, and 3 mid/nearfield pairs.

Over the past 12-14 years, I selected these monitors based as much on WHAT THEY MAKE ME DO, as any other criteria.

It's a never ending process of adjustment and refinement.

One of the most difficult, intreguing, and rewarding parts of the craft.

I think the only "MISTAKE" you can make in this area is to expect, or even wish, this portion of the journey of sound transduction will end.

IMHO, and in the fabric of my experience..... It will not.

Best to all.

SM.
Tony Williams stories, too? Marry me Slipperman, marry me. Today I will give thanks for you, too. I won't mention that aloud at the dinner table, though. Strange glances.
Old 27th November 2003
  #15
Gear Addict
 

I had the same decision to make last month.

I went with the dynaudio's, best decision I ever made.

Brandon
Old 27th November 2003
  #16
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Re: Re: Re: Dynaudio BM6 vs. Mackie HR824

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
This is a beginning but the thing I'd look for is a company who has the know-how and gear to cherry-pick the best of a larger manufacturer's drivers. A small company who doesn't have any market for their raw drivers is forced to use most of their production in their own products.
Bob, this is a really confusing statement. I think you wrote this backwards.

"A company with the know how and gear to pick from the larger manufacturers drivers"? Granted there might be one such company I can think of, but the truth is if you don't build drivers, how would you have the "know how" to pick? Most box builders (what most monitor companies are) pick a driver supplier on price-they aren't heating them up and looking at 3rd harmonic distortion curves in a test lab!

Assuming a company has the know how and the gear, what large manufacturer can supply them with state of the art? State of the art is rarely found in large volume production, in any business (including mics, preamps, compressors, consoles, electronics, cars, houses, etc)!

This statement "A small company that doesn't have any market for their raw frame drivers is forced to use most of their production in their own products" does not in any way fit the reality. I cannot think of one company where this statement applies (if you can please correct me). Truth is that a small company that uses it own drivers does so because it gives them a performance advantage, and they are probably saving their best designs and products for themselves (ie ATC SL woofers and mid domes, ADAM tweeters, certain Dynaudio woofers, etc, etc) and selling the lesser stuff OEM (Dynaudio, ATC). The companies that are forced to use their own drivers, whether they are perfect for the job or not, are the BIG ones, not the little ones. When you are inside a big audio manuf corporation, you can't go buy someone elses woofer when your own company makes them! Your boss would kill you!

Brad
Old 27th November 2003
  #17
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Alécio Costa's Avatar
 

One of the nice things about the mackie´s is that they are quite easy to fix at mastering -lol

I have been receiving lots of mixes done on this monitors and I genereally need to fix:
53 68 125 3.2k 16k

Generally vocals are a little buried, some low end is anemic and the high sheen is a little dull, due to the too "smiley curve" these monitors provide.

Anybody else agree with me?

Ok, room acoustics, placement and the ears are important factors, but mastering stuff that was mixed on them are not a nightmare.

Old 27th November 2003
  #18
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dynaudio BM6 vs. Mackie HR824

Quote:
Originally posted by Brad Lunde
Most box builders (what most monitor companies are) pick a driver supplier on price-they aren't heating them up and looking at 3rd harmonic distortion curves in a test lab!

Brad
www.link-audio.be

I have the K50. it eats Dynaudio's fo breakfast. The tweeter is 4 generations old. The woofer that will be in the signature version is a 15 year old design. This guy picks the drivers - he heats them and measures them, I think he tastes them too.
It's a small firm, not expansionist, just into the best (most high fidelity in the true meaning of the word) reproduction possible.
So I admit the drivers are picked considering a given price target, but surely it's not just about comparing pricelists.

I loved my Dynaudio's, but now it's true love

When you're in Brussels, just come in for a listen. I had one SE (from Wales) doing just that - he ended up returning a second time to Belgium to buy them
Old 28th November 2003
  #19
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dynaudio BM6 vs. Mackie HR824

Quote:
Originally posted by Yannick
www.link-audio.be

<SNIP>
So I admit the drivers are picked considering a given price target, but surely it's not just about comparing pricelists.

<SNIP>
Sounds like you did your homework. Keep in mind I said "most". The high end finds ways to beat the deck stacked against them, because they have the time and the passion to overlook costs. But unfortunately we live in a Wall Mart world, where price and packaging are a "must do" for commerical success.

Brad
Old 28th November 2003
  #20
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I could have made myself more clear.

The very best speakers I've ever experienced have had very carefully matched drivers. In each case the manufacturer was not a driver manufacturer but had at least as good a test setup as any driver manufacturer would have. Each told me that drivers can not be manufactured with enough consistency to make it worth the capital investment unless you are equipped to be selling a LOT of drivers at all price levels or you can afford to throw out 60% or more of what you produce.

There is a ready market for name-brand drivers so these manufacturers buy a lot of drivers, measure each, keep the ones that meet their design specs and sell off the ones that don't. (This doesn't mean the rejects are defective, just that they would require a crossover design change because of a slightly different resonant frequency. They still fall well within their manufacturer's specs., just not the speaker manufacturer's.)
Old 28th November 2003
  #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I could have made myself more clear.

The very best speakers I've ever experienced have had very carefully matched drivers. In each case the manufacturer was not a driver manufacturer but had at least as good a test setup as any driver manufacturer would have. Each told me that drivers can not be manufactured with enough consistency to make it worth the capital investment unless you are equipped to be selling a LOT of drivers at all price levels or you can afford to throw out 60% or more of what you produce.

<SNIP>
Now this I can agree with, and even support it. There ARE driver/speaker manufacturers out there (I work with one of em) that DO do a lot of testing, do have consistency, and do have OEM divisions. However, you absolutely cannot buy their best stuff from them OEM-its not gonna happen! They go only into their own speakers and those speakers are usually a whole nother level of performance. To be specific , ATC, B&W, Dynaudio are some that|are at the top of the market right now and have a lot of additional capabilities because they build their own drivers. I'm sure there are others that I do not know about, outside the US.

Brad
Old 28th November 2003
  #22
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I think the words "best stuff" could be a bit misleading.

Drivers are the least consistent components of a speaker SYSTEM design. The "best" driver is simply the one that very precisely matches a design prototype. Drivers that don't happen to match a design prototype are sold off OEM or put randomly into much cheaper speaker systems. The quality comes from the matching process as opposed to any intrinsic quality of the driver, assuming that it isn't cheap junk.

Show me a speaker manufacturer's test facilities. That's generally what determines the quality of their speakers provided management doesn't dictate whose drivers or how loose a spec. they are required to consider acceptable.
Old 28th November 2003
  #23
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mm...

ok...

so the general concensus is... the dynaudios are the way to go.

but what if you're in a situation like mine and have had these macks for 2 and a half years, is it worth getting a new pair of speakers and learn from rhombus 1 or should one just stick to em, eventually hoping to learn how they translate?
Old 28th November 2003
  #24
Gear Nut
 
ROBB007's Avatar
 

The Dynaudios will be a immediate improvement I think you will find right away they translate very very very well!!!!!!!!I tried a number of speakers over the last year{Tannoys krks Yamahas{still have NS10S}and found my mixes sounded great most everywhere.I no every body says custom this, custom that and this will never change!! But Dynaudio has been in the high end speaker business for quite some time so not only will you get a great product you get the company with a warranty that will be sure here years from now and hold the value!I am not an endorsee!I am a humble studio owner here in Vancouver bc CANADA!!So if there was something that much better I would be there!
Good luck

Old 28th November 2003
  #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I think the words "best stuff" could be a bit misleading.

Drivers are the least consistent components of a speaker SYSTEM design. The "best" driver is simply the one that very precisely matches a design prototype. <SNIP>
OK, fair enough comment. I should be more clear as well. "Best" in my context refers to low distortion 1st, then high dynamic range. These are the grand goals of most driver manufacturers interested in pushing the envelope for studio monitors. [A specific example would be an ATC SL driver- and they do not sell this to anyone, but do a fair amount of OEM. I would guess Dyn has something very unique in their boxes vs OEM as well]

For other applications, the goals are different, such as hanging together under extreme heat (PA), or having a specific resonance or impendance curve (to fit a specific box design), etc etc.
Brad
Old 30th November 2003
  #26
Gear Nut
 
DigiGeek's Avatar
 

Dynaudios all the way. I have a pair of the Mackies which I try never to use.
Old 1st December 2003
  #27
Gear Head
 
slickrick's Avatar
 

Another vote for the BM6's.

I had NS10's and JunkButLoud 4430's before these, and really hated them (...but used 'em for nigh on 10 years)

I think everyone's point about high-end is correct, but, for the money, the Dyn's are fn nice, and do translate well. And I certainly don't miss the NS10's induced fatigue...man they're hard on the ears.

Cheers

Rick
Old 1st December 2003
  #28
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what do y'all think of the AIR series compared to the BMa's?
Old 2nd December 2003
  #29
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Saucyjack's Avatar
 

Any comments on the passive Dynaudio Bm6s?

I remember reading somewhere that some peeps liked the passive Bm6s with a decent power amp better than the active version.
Old 3rd December 2003
  #30
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Saucyjack's Avatar
 

be-ump
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