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sample rate discrimination
Old 15th December 2013
  #61
Wow. That's all a bit Smoothvibe-ish...but at least written in plain english!

Not saying you're wrong...but if I had to think about all this stuff, I'd never finish a mix and make a living.

I'm not saying you're wrong...but the guys I know who make the best mixes don't seem to worry about it. I'm going to continue to aim to emulate them I think! I've never been in a session with a top mixer who's sat down and specifically set the faders to a particular value....they just do things by ear.

I appreciate what you've written above about DSD, but I kind of think the same thing there. The mixes I like never went near DSD - I don't know anyone who uses it professionally, certainly not the guys I listen to. Not that it would suit my workflow anyway..but as I've said, a great AD sounds to me like the desk mix/monitor mix. If I wanted the sound of 1/2" I'll use 1/2"! I still don't really understand how you get from DSD onto a CD without going to PCM anyway...? Or is this the argument that even after the conversion, it still makes a difference?

I dunno...like I said, the best engineers I know don't seem to need this...
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Old 15th December 2013
  #62
Lives for gear
 
Jazz Noise's Avatar
Yesterday I stayed a friends who has a mouse in her house. I could hear the mouse all night and upon re-entering the guest room I saw a little brown thing lying still on the ground.

So I threw a pot at it, BANG, and the thing remain still further. As I triumphantly went to remove the dead mouse and put it in a bin, I realized it was not actually a mouse.

I had just attacked a piece of potpourri.
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Old 15th December 2013 | Show parent
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
[...]
I appreciate what you've written above about DSD, but I kind of think the same thing there. The mixes I like never went near DSD - I don't know anyone who uses it professionally, certainly not the guys I listen to. Not that it would suit my workflow anyway..but as I've said, a great AD sounds to me like the desk mix/monitor mix. If I wanted the sound of 1/2" I'll use 1/2"! I still don't really understand how you get from DSD onto a CD without going to PCM anyway...? Or is this the argument that even after the conversion, it still makes a difference?

[...]
I keep reading people -- including some well-recognized pros -- who insist that they are 'editing' in the DSD domain. It seems there is less than full understanding of that technology even among some of its most vociferous proponents.
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Old 15th December 2013 | Show parent
  #64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz Noise View Post
Yesterday I stayed a friends who has a mouse in her house. I could hear the mouse all night and upon re-entering the guest room I saw a little brown thing lying still on the ground.

So I threw a pot at it, BANG, and the thing remain still further. As I triumphantly went to remove the dead mouse and put it in a bin, I realized it was not actually a mouse.

I had just attacked a piece of potpourri.
Cold blooded potpourri killer.


Here in the States, we keep mice as pets. Next trendy pet: the bed bug.
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Old 15th December 2013 | Show parent
  #65
So I've come to respect and agree with a lot of what herecomesyourman posts on the boards, but I don't see what you're talking about with both this prime number PT idea, or recording an 88.2 session into a DSD some how sounding better than just the mix. If I'm working with mp3 files, will recording them into a CD burner make them sound better? It seems like you're going to be limited by the source, not the destination. Any degradation has already occurred, you're just recording it said degradation in a nicer format.

If the Pro Tools prime number thing is true (I tried it myself on some sessions and found no differences what so ever, and the files null completely, which is the ultimate test of a difference in this arena), then the engineers and developers of the worlds most popular (not saying it's the best) DAW seem to be unable to do basic math. That's what this phenomenon would require. Or they've intentionally built in this secret mix weapon into PT but decided to not tell anyone about it. The poster with the explanation of floating point math showed this exactly, this just does not seem possible.

Have you reported this inability to add and multiple correctly to Digi/Avid? It seems like if they heard of a very fundamental flaw in their mix engine over the course of FOUR major releases, they would have done something about it. Also, how is it that no one else has ever reported or mentioned this effect, and seemingly no poster on this thread has been able to notice it either. I'm sorry to say dude, this seems to just be you on this one. Like I said bro, I agree with a lot of what you post in here, but this doesn't add up, no pun intended.
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Old 15th December 2013 | Show parent
  #66
Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, were you saying that a computer under load while mixing sounds different than one not under load? That also seems to be a very basically flawed theory. The numbers either add up and you have output, or it's unable to keep up and you get a drop out. There is no in between here, unless again there is some implicitly programmed in device to reduce mix resolution at certain CPU loads, which someone else would have noticed at some point, and certainly developers of various plugins, etc would have noticed this effect, and I've never heard anyone else say this.
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Old 15th December 2013 | Show parent
  #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by darbyclash34 View Post
Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, were you saying that a computer under load while mixing sounds different than one not under load? That also seems to be a very basically flawed theory. The numbers either add up and you have output, or it's unable to keep up and you get a drop out. There is no in between here, unless again there is some implicitly programmed in device to reduce mix resolution at certain CPU loads, which someone else would have noticed at some point, and certainly developers of various plugins, etc would have noticed this effect, and I've never heard anyone else say this.
Having just back-burnered a nearly 8 year old single core, 2 GB P4 which was my primary DAW (using Sonar 8.5) for that time, and having a big ol' plugin jones, I have to say that, if I had a big load of plugs in a project, that it could get glitchy. That's glitchy, not a change in character so much as glitches or full dropouts/PB-stoppage and such. (The most noticeable was missing hits from my old drum VI, BFD.)

Considerably different, from a tech perspective, than a change in sonic character, but a form of live playback performance degradation, nonetheless.

(Happily, Sonar has a flexible and quick track freeze so it wasn't really a big deal. And, I gotta tell you, while my new $500 quad core box is certainly faster, that old $400 refurb was blissfully quiet. The new one isn't too bad, but the old one was just really quiet. Then again, I couldn't watch HD vids on Netflix because the shared video was so wimpy. Amusingly, the new box seemed even worse at video -- UNTIL I got into add/install programs and pulled out all the Dell hand-holding-ware and outright crapware. Vids that were glitching at half-screen size now playback beautifully. WHY do these box-builders insist on loading up their systems with so much crap that they can barely perform? This is a really decent machine [slices through vid rendering!] but when I got it, between the crapware and the idiotic window 'animations' that waste time 'gently scrolling' menus and slowly fading windows, etc, it FELT like a total doggie until I got busy undoing the vendor idiocies.)
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Old 16th December 2013 | Show parent
  #68
Oh sure, we've all experienced the glitch fest that is a machine being pushed to it's limits. At least with Pro Tools, there's the endless serious of various numbered DAE errors (waiting on slate to go AAX so I can jump to 11 for the AAE errors ), playback continuing but the GUI becoming unresponsive, all sorts of stuff. But I'm pretty sure the implication earlier was that audio quality would be compromised in some way, that wouldn't throw an error. I'm happy to be told that's not what HCYM was saying, but I think it was. Sure, if you have ignore errors turned on you may hear clicks and pops, but that is pretty damn obvious. I don't believe it's possible for a machine under load to degrade the sound in any other way, we're not talking about running a mixer waaaaay into the red and causing distortion and harmonics and all sorts of stuff. This is just math.
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