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Drum Sounds by Brand
Old 24th September 2002
  #1
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Drum Sounds by Brand

I'm looking to see if I can get any consensus regarding the sounds of different drum makes. I've been playing drums for a long time and I wanted to crystallize my overall sonic interpretation of several individual brand's sounds. I suspect this could be helpful to people looking to add or hire a kit to their studio arsenal, or to those looking for a particular sound. I don't have all the brands in there so add some if you get 'em. Also, I notice I'm more familiar with the high end kits because I stopped listening to low end kits when overall, they started really sucking in the 80's. Pearl Exports hi and hi-mid toms sound pretty damn good these days though. Their floors SUCK.

Sounds of kits...

Pearl Masters Custom - earthy, organic, toms almost sound eq'd for sweetness, kick projects very well and its containment is almost perfect... good (but not great)low fundamental too

Tama Star Classic - punchy, full, deep (especially kicks), far more contained sounding than the Pearl's, toms never impressed me.. they sound only a little better than Pearl exports except they're not even as sweet as those, just a little warmer and deeper in tone, and their attack is lackluster

Yamaha Maple Custom (my kit) - Very raw (bright with lots of under and overtones... think Max Roach) sounding toms, especially with single ply heads, amazing attack!! Kick has a focussed deep low fundamental note, but too short in duration and projection (tried many different heads, tunings, muffling, etc. it's just the way the kick sounds)

Drum Workshop - Great punchy kick sound, and it's distincitive.. I know a DW kick when I hear it. The kick also is a little more controlled in the low end than the Tama above, and it's fundamental is better defined. Toms are very contained and punchy, killer projection, lots of tone but only at one pitch, lacking overtones. This is why I went with the Yamaha, which can come very close to this sound if they have 2 ply heads, and are thus more flexible in terms of available sounds. I want to change my kick to either Pearl or DW someday though.

Ayotte - Too damned expensive! But if there's a better sounding toms (for hard rock mostly) than the sets with the wood hoops, I haven't heard it. Somehow they manage the Yamaha's overtone thing but at much lower fundamentals all around, and with more control using a 1 ply head. The kick I could live without, the pitch is lost in deep fundamental.

GMS - Well, they make 'em to order, but I've never heard a GMS that didn't sound great. The toms sound a little 'fragile' for lack of a better word... like the shells are too thin(??). The tone from the toms can be too gentle because it's so well balanced. Kicks remind me of old Gretsch kicks, pronounced and very tuneable, punchy without going too deep unless you want it too. You can really hear the wood tone in a GMS/old Gretsch kick. Personality galore from the Gretsch though.

Slingerland - I haven't been impressed with any Slingy since the mid through late 60's up to about 1974 kits. Kits from those eras totally represent the classic drum sounds of the times, and are great for getting those sounds nowadays. Think ROUND.

Ludwig - They still sound like Alex Van Halen to this day! I don't know how they do it.

I don't mention snare sounds for any of the kits because I've never used a snare that was part of a kit. I think snares need to be chosen on an individual basis.

p.s. - If you saw this post at 3daudio, um... oh well. Just relax
Old 25th September 2002
  #2
Moderator emeritus
 

Let me start by being contrarian and saying that I don't think that the brand of drums in nearly as important as the setup (especially the bearing edges), the heads, the sticks and most importantly, the player.

The brand name may be imoprtant for endorsement reasons, but if the drums are round, the edges well done, and the mounting hardware solid, any drums can work just fine. And if those things are NOT done well, none of the above drums sound worth a damn.

I just traded a set of early Masters Custom Pearls for a tweaked up set of Pearl Exports. The new set rocks...
Old 25th September 2002
  #3
Faves in the past have been

Black beauty snares
Vintage Zildgen New Beat hi hats
Knoble & Kooly snares
Slingerland Toms
Old 25th September 2002
  #4
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Alécio Costa's Avatar
 

here in Brazil we have a brand named Odery that is being exported worldwide. I got rid of Pearls, Tamas, Mapex and so.

I would define it as a mix of Dw and Master Custom. As someone said, snares shall picked elsewhere. Very personal, but I like Yamaha Sinature (???) I dunno the name once I am not a drummer.
Old 25th September 2002
  #5
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XHipHop's Avatar
vintage slingerland kits are sometimes less than $300 on ebay. are these worthy of being a studios standard kit? what type of music are they best for? what artists are noted for using these kits?

i know this is somewhat subjective, but the price is definitely right on these kits so if they are good, i might have to get one.

i record mostly indie-rock/punk stuff right now.
Old 25th September 2002
  #6
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My S series Sonar kit sounds pretty damn good to me.

Sometimes people bring in DW or starclassic kits, and to me my $1000 (with no snare or hardware) sonar usually sounds better.
Old 25th September 2002
  #7
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mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin
. . . if the drums are round, the edges well done, and the mounting hardware solid, any drums can work just fine. And if those things are NOT done well, none of the above drums sound worth a damn ...
Dave, where did you have the edes done? I might face that probelm for my kit.
Old 25th September 2002
  #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin
Let me start by being contrarian and saying that I don't think that the brand of drums in nearly as important as the setup (especially the bearing edges), the heads, the sticks and most importantly, the player.
Couldn't agree more about the player, and a good player will generally know what sticks and heads sound best with his or her style(s). The point of my post is that each make has its own unique sonic imprint, regardless of who's playing it. The drum makers go out of their way to make it so.

The brand name may be imoprtant for endorsement reasons, but if the drums are round, the edges well done, and the mounting hardware solid, any drums can work just fine. And if those things are NOT done well, none of the above drums sound worth a damn.

This might sound a little Yogi Bera, but endorsements don't make the sound of the drums, the drums make the sound of the drums . Er... that is, the way they're made does.

I'll have to part opinions with you when you say any drums can work fine. And work fine for what? I wouldn't try a walnut shelled, warm-toned-but-little-attack kind of kit to record a hard rock date. That's almost like saying any guitar can work just fine, without considering what kind of tone it has for the attributes that make it work, what context it's used in, or what make it is. Being as it is that most drums to be found in studios are maple and/or birch shelled, and are built to similar dimesnions (20-24" kicks, 10-12-14-16" toms) I would say that lots of drums can work, yet few are just right. Bands using the record co.'s budget often have a big selection of kits wheeled in for these very reasons.

The way each drum is made is particular to each maker, so among many other things, the angle of the bearing edge can vary by 10ths of degrees - which is a lot - from make to make. Each difference among all the variables accounts for a difference in sound. That's why each make sounds different from the other. Premier sounds like Premier, but not at all like Orange County Drums.

p.s. - I don't mean to call your Exports crappy sounding (I do like the hi toms), just saying the last time I heard them they didn't do anything for me. They may have changed (as they have over the last 12 years, improving every few years) since I heard them 3 years ago. My first kit was a 78' Pearl Export and I literally loved it to death (beating all the tone out of most of it) -- being too young, energetic, and reckless a player to baby it back then.
Old 25th September 2002
  #9
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Anyone record anyone with Orange County drums? They seem pretty cool, but havent ever heard one not going thru a big PA system.
Old 25th September 2002
  #10
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
That's an interesting list. Did you know that some of the brands you listed all use the same shells? It's true. GMS, DW, Spaun, Pork Pie, OCDP (overpriced crap IMNSHO), Baltimore, some Noble & Cooley, Ayotte, Phattie, and many more that I can't remember right now all use maple shells from Keller. The only thing that seperates one from another is finish, lugs and attention to detail.

All old and new top end Gretsch kits have maple/gum shells from Jasper. Fibes all uses Jasper shells. Also it's been confirmed that Jasper is going under soon. Don't worry too much, it'll be a few years before those places run out of stock on shells for new kits.

Bearing edges do have an effect on the tuning range of a drum, but the type of cut doesn't make as big a difference in the range as the quality of the cut and material of the shell.
Old 25th September 2002
  #11
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The drummer for No Doubt uses Orange County... not that it's any indication of their real sound since they throw samples all over his playing on every album.

Their snares have crack like the San Andreas, but not much tone. The cool big holes in the sides of their drums = supersick projection and volume.
Old 25th September 2002
  #12
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by planet red
Anyone record anyone with Orange County drums? They seem pretty cool, but havent ever heard one not going thru a big PA system.
Yeah, quite a few times. They are the most overpriced piece of **** kits out there. See my above post... You want my reasons? OK, how about seeing one 30-ply snare have about 15-20 plys seperate from the rest of the shell in the middle of a session? Lugs that are mounted to the shell without spacers so the tension rods bend inwards. The fact that a 5x14" snare with big holes in the side is $1000 and a great snare from one of the above or even a Dunnet is $300-600. ****, a whole Spaun kit is about $1800 to $2200 depending on sizes and options. I paid $150 (including shipping) for my '71 Rogers 6x14" that was refinished and had the edges cut by Bill at Pork Pie and it blows any OCDP clear away.

Probably the most telling thing was a 17 year-old drummer who came in with an OCDP snare. I'll be honest, it sounded good and the kid could actually play. He used some of my snares on different songs and he actually liked my 5x12" Yomama Stage Custom better on a lot of songs. I paid $60 for it at a Scam Cash blowout last year. I have about $1000 invested in six great drums, he has over $1000 in one...



Also most of the people who endorse the drums don't use them in the studio. Even a lot of die hard Tama or Pearl guys use Gretsch kits in the studio. Brady snares are also pretty popular but expensive.
Old 25th September 2002
  #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
That's an interesting list. Did you know that some of the brands you listed all use the same shells? It's true. GMS, DW, Spaun, Pork Pie, OCDP (overpriced crap IMNSHO), Baltimore, some Noble & Cooley, Ayotte, Phattie, and many more that I can't remember right now all use maple shells from Keller. The only thing that seperates one from another is finish, lugs and attention to detail.
It's not so much a list as a description of what separates them from eachother that I meant to point out.

Yup, Keller is the supplier for many of the drum makers. That's about where the major similarities end, though. How the shells are cut and formed is a huge variable. You've got yer steam and glue (or no glue) techniques, the angle at which the seam (if any) meets, whether or not the angle is staggered, the type of wood (maple and birch predominate the field, although many other tonal variations exist in other woods), thickness of the plies, amount of plies, where on the drum (inside and oustide? just outside?) and how the finish is applied (and why there?) and what kind it is, the amount and kind of resonance inherent to the vastly different lug shapes, where the lugs are placed, why there, how, and how many of them there are, etc. etc. Even the type of maple can vary from bird's eye to rock hard and others that I can't remember at the moment. Rims too. Triple flanged, die cast, or wood rims all interact differently with a drum's sound. The variables are wide between the different makes, and purposely so.

It takes a long time to understand what all of the variables mean to the sound.
Old 25th September 2002
  #14
I agree with my friend Alecio up there...
I am a drummer myself and I must say I do love those odery drum kits (www.odery.com.br).
With they come with their version of Tamas's Die Cast rims... uhh huh... they kick ass on the rim shots...
For the money (at least here in Brazil) they are the best drum kit you can have.
The only thing that sux is that they only make it to order... so you gotta be patient...
Ohh, and the OCP drums... yeah, I agree they're overpriced... maybe just because all the "cool" new rockstar drummer uses them...
Old 25th September 2002
  #15
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener

Dave, where did you have the edes done? I might face that probelm for my kit.
A couple of guys here in town do great work - Sam Bacco, a percussionist with the Nashville Symphony, or Steve Klink, both do great work. I understand that Sam did the kit I got yesterday.
Old 25th September 2002
  #16
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax


This might sound a little Yogi Bera, but endorsements don't make the sound of the drums, the drums make the sound of the drums . Er... that is, the way they're made does.
Nah - the drummer makes the sound of the drums.

Quote:


Couldn't agree more about the player, and a good player will generally know what sticks and heads sound best with his or her style(s). The point of my post is that each make has its own unique sonic imprint, regardless of who's playing it. The drum makers go out of their way to make it so.
I know what you're saying - it's simply that my experience at recording drums by many manufacturers and playing with drummers for 30 years has told me something completely different. The drum makers try to make their drums sound different, but they're all drums - some better than others, but pretty much sounding like drums.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax


I'll have to part opinions with you when you say any drums can work fine. And work fine for what? I wouldn't try a walnut shelled, warm-toned-but-little-attack kind of kit to record a hard rock date. That's almost like saying any guitar can work just fine, without considering what kind of tone it has for the attributes that make it work, what context it's used in, or what make it is. .
Right - that's what I'm saying. A good example is the Jaco Pastorius bass sound, which everyone knows was due to the fretless jazz bass that Jaco played, with the marine epoxy finish on the neck. Except that the last couple of years that he was alive he was playing a fretted P bass, since the jazz had been stolen. And it still sounded like Jaco - go figure. I've seen Chet Atkins (who played his signature model Gretsch Country Gentleman for decades, and then changed to a Gibson Chet signature model - both archtop guitars) play a strat. He still sounded like Chet. For that matter, Billy Gibbons sounds like Billy Gibbons whether he's playing a Tele or a Les Paul.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax

Bands using the record co.'s budget often have a big selection of kits wheeled in for these very reasons.
Well, there's more to it than that - Money also gets pissed away on unneeded crap on big budget sessions... If I have multiple kits here, they'll be in different acoustic environments, and miked differently. They'll also likely have different heads, and be used on different material. Again, the heads, the bearing edges, the room, the mics and the player are more important than the brand of drums. Oh - the the song being played, of course.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax


The way each drum is made is particular to each maker, so among many other things, the angle of the bearing edge can vary by 10ths of degrees - which is a lot - from make to make. Each difference among all the variables accounts for a difference in sound. That's why each make sounds different from the other. Premier sounds like Premier, but not at all like Orange County Drums.
And to you as a player, these things seem obvious. To me, thay aren't, and for a a few diferent reasons. First, most of the drum sets brought out here are used by full time session players - the bearing edges have been tweaked, the heads are changed regularly, and the players are ****in' great. Those things far outweigh any differences in shells (which are mostly made by one of two manufacturers) and hardware (pretty much the rims - any internal baffles are removed, and such things as cymbal and tom stands are usualy made by third party companies.

Out here, we're likely to play an Aerosmith inspired rock song first, and the second song of the day is just as likely to be a brush ballad. And the drums on the two songs don't sound anything alike. It's the players.

I've got a track played on my house kit by a songwriter who also playes drums (but is certainly not a studio quality drummer). I'm experimenting with and iZ Radar this week, so I think I'm going to transfer that track into Radar and see if I can edit a groove into it... But I digress - the point I was going to make is that my kit sounded fairly bad when this drummer played it, even though it had sounded great the day before and the day after. WHich reinforces my theory that the player is far more important than the logo on the front head of the kick drum.

Your mileage, obviously, varies.
Old 25th September 2002
  #17
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Hey guys...interesting discussion.

A quick question though. Is it possible that you really don't disagree that much? I mean the discussion seems to start being about different drums having different characteristics. I think this might apply to ANY instrument.

Although he has raised others, the point Dave seems to be coming back to is that it is the player that "makes the sound of the drums". I think we can all agree that you could idently David Garibaldi or (your example here) almost no matter what they played. It would have that players groove, dynamics, punch, accents, composision, etc.

And that no one would sound like Art Tatum on any piano.

But if we put the same musician on different kits would they sound the SAME? How does this type of questin apply to some of our other questions (mic selection, converters, etc.)?
Old 25th September 2002
  #18
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mwagener's Avatar
I would give it probably a 50 to 30 to 20 % ratio, 50 being the player, 30 the room and 20 everything else combined. Then we have to ask the question: What does a good drum sound sound like? Obviously a lot of engineers have a problem with that and trigger some canned sounds.
Old 25th September 2002
  #19
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike O

But if we put the same musician on different kits would they sound the SAME? How does this type of questin apply to some of our other questions (mic selection, converters, etc.)?
It depends - If I had two drum sets here, tuned differently (whether the same or diferent sized drums isn't really material), then yes, the drums would sound 'different'. But I think that the similarities in the playing, and certainly the sounds of the snare and cymbals would be far more striking than the differences. And more important, if the drummer had the chance to tweak the kit to where he was happy with the sound, then even those differences would be minimal.

Except that it would cost me a couple hundred dollars, I could give you an easy example in a week or so. I've mentioned on this thread that I got a new kit. The drummer I got it from is now using a diferent brand of drums. Once his new session kits go into cartage (meaning that the bearing edges are tweaked by Sam Bacco and he's put his heads on the drums and gotten them to sound like he likes them, I'd be surprised if you could tell which is which when they're recorded, recording the same song with the same signal chain. And I'm not sure that you could tell if you were standing in the room. But I'd hate to pay the cartage tab and spend a day recording the two sets...

I did think of something that could make a difference - if one set of toms reacted more with the kick and snare than the other, then the hum that the kit exhibits could change in character...

And I pretty much agree with Michael concerning the percentages, though I'm not sure (neither is he) whether 50% or 80% is the drummer...
Old 25th September 2002
  #20
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener
I would give it probably a 50 to 30 to 20 % ratio, 80 being the player, 30 the room and 20 everything else combined.
No typo there.. I agree 130%
Old 25th September 2002
  #21
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mwagener's Avatar
sorry, fixed it
Old 25th September 2002
  #22
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drundall's Avatar
 

We have a pork pie kit that works pretty well all around. I like Gretsch a lot and Ludwig snares for heavy music (a PITA, though).
Old 25th September 2002
  #23
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drundall's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin


the point I was going to make is that my kit sounded fairly bad when this drummer played it, even though it had sounded great the day before and the day after. WHich reinforces my theory that the player is far more important than the logo on the front head of the kick drum.
Absolutely true. I have many players playing the same kit. It sounds great when a great player plays it, not great when a sucky player plays it. I've developed different techniques for the ****ty players, a lot more compression and such. I don't really dig manhandling the drum sound but sometimes you gotta...grudge
Old 25th September 2002
  #24
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Just sold my DW kit and got an ayotte kit. Loved the DWs while I had em, but a friend made me an offer I couldn't refuse on the Ayottes. I'll never look back--the difference is incredible. I can mic the whole kit any which way, and every drum shines, the toms and kick especially.

Also, about the Keller shells, many companies that use em get the shells raw and cut the edges and snare beds themselves. This is really what defines the sound.
Old 26th September 2002
  #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin
But I digress - the point I was going to make is that my kit sounded fairly bad when this drummer played it, even though it had sounded great the day before and the day after. WHich reinforces my theory that the player is far more important than the logo on the front head of the kick drum.

Your mileage, obviously, varies.
I can see you get what I've said, and my mileage doesn't vary at all from the truth that the drummer makes the drum's sound... a certain way... usually like the person playing it.

Again, my post is meant to - however subjectively - point out the way different makes of drums sound different from eachother.

Yes indeed, the drummer's style and their ability to express it is what is most apparent regardless of the drumset he or she plays. Did I say it wasn't? No, I'm describing the character of certain makes, much as someone might try with words (however futile that is) to describe the sound of their favorite mic. Tony Williams still sounds like Tony Williams whether he was playing an old Pearl Kit or a recent DW, but he sounds like Tony Williams playing a DW in one circumstance and Tony Williams playing an old Pearl in another.

Whether or not the drummer's style is a "far more important" topic to discuss is just another angle to look at it from, but not one that I'm arguing.
Old 26th September 2002
  #26
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax

Yup, Keller is the supplier for many of the drum makers. That's about where the major similarities end, though. How the shells are cut and formed is a huge variable. You've got yer steam and glue (or no glue) techniques, the angle at which the seam (if any) meets, whether or not the angle is staggered, the type of wood (maple and birch predominate the field, although many other tonal variations exist in other woods), thickness of the plies, amount of plies, where on the drum (inside and oustide? just outside?) and how the finish is applied (and why there?) and what kind it is, the amount and kind of resonance inherent to the vastly different lug shapes, where the lugs are placed, why there, how, and how many of them there are, etc. etc. Even the type of maple can vary from bird's eye to rock hard and others that I can't remember at the moment. Rims too. Triple flanged, die cast, or wood rims all interact differently with a drum's sound. The variables are wide between the different makes, and purposely so.
So you think there's a huge difference between a Spuan 6-ply kit and a GMS 6-ply kit if they have the same rims, heads and materials? I'd put money on your not being able to pick them apart in a blind test. Granted all those things do matter and make up a large part of a drums sound but in the long run the player makes a much bigger difference then the shell having a double 45 edge or a bullnose edge like an old Ludwig.
Old 26th September 2002
  #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by drundall
We have a pork pie kit that works pretty well all around. I like Gretsch a lot and Ludwig snares for heavy music (a PITA, though).
I have a 5x12 Pork Pie snare that is basically used as an effects drum. It sings a high overtone like nothing you've ever heard, it's almost comical, and the rim shot sounds like a scream. Gotta say the lugs don't hold in tune for very long at all, though.

Very cool orange/purple/gold/red 3D honeycomb cover around it too. I'll post a pic of it eventually.

And hey Dave, it sounds like me playing it when I play it.
Old 26th September 2002
  #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs


So you think there's a huge difference between a Spuan 6-ply kit and a GMS 6-ply kit if they have the same rims, heads and materials? I'd put money on your not being able to pick them apart in a blind test. Granted all those things do matter and make up a large part of a drums sound but in the long run the player makes a much bigger difference then the shell having a double 45 edge or a bullnose edge like an old Ludwig.
Never heard a Spaun live. If I had I might have commented on it in my "list". See my last direct reply to Dave re. the player making the sound etc. etc. compared to what I was posting about originally.

Also, many of the comparisons (which now I wonder if people are reading) suggest what would sound like minor tonal variations to people who aren't listening for them. As Dave said what "may be obvious" to me might not be to everyone else... I indentified the ones I am familiar with.

If you really want me to argue about it, pay me and I'll make up stuff that sounds plausable! heh heh
Old 26th September 2002
  #29
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You're absolutely right, there's no way anyone's gonna hear rthe difference between two kits that are made from the same shells, hardware, heads and have the same player. But, going back to the beginning of the thread, a good drumset with a good drummer will always sound better than a crappy kit with a poor drummer. If you're gonna be a poor drummer, at least be poor from buying a good kit...
Old 27th September 2002
  #30
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lflier's Avatar
 

Geez y'all. I don't see what the big deal is about different drums having different sounds. They do, regardless of player. I've recorded our drummer, who is awesome, playing both my Gretsch kit and his old Slingerland kit. The two kits have the exact same shell sizes, but they certainly do sound different, even with the same heads, recording in the same room with the same recording gear.

I bought my Gretsch kit specifically because I thought it had very desirable characteristics for recording, more so than any other kit I have tried or recorded in the past. The shells are TIGHT... there's not a stray, unmusical overtone anywhere, even with no muffling (I hate muffling). There is definitely a reason why Gretsch kits are so popular in studios, and I didn't take anybody's word for it - I've simply heard the difference enough times to know.

Of course you could buy a top of the line Gretsch kit and it will still sound like crap if you put cheap heads on it, don't know how to tune the drums and have a ****ty drummer playing them. heh And a great drummer who can tune drums well can make even a crappy kit sound great. But there is still nothing like a great drummer on a great kit, and IMO a great drummer deserves to record on a great kit.
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