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"Skills > gear", going deeper into the topic
Old 22nd October 2013
  #31
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It's an interesting film..I mixed some of the music cues with Howie B...every time I see the picasso quote I think about it.
Might have to check it. Loved "Exit through the gift shop".....surreal madness....
Old 22nd October 2013
  #32
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SmoothVibe - this is the exact reason you don't have the mindset to be a good engineer. It has nothing to do with calculations, nothing to do with cold hard procedures there is no " perceived resolution" there is feel, there is vibe, there is gel, there is color these are artistic terms there are no absolute definitive calculations. Like if i place mic A 3.547 cm to the left at at a 45 deg angle ill get "uber awesome tone"

or cut 3.75 db here every time. The true definitive factor is expressed as a TRADE how long have you done the same job in the same conditions referencing Masters in the same environment it is really really quite simple.

do anything long enough and you will get better at it. General aptitude is nice to have, but the reality is it is work and the longer you do it in your environments the more you will understand everything.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #33
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Smoothvibe really has excelled himself here hasn't he...does anything need to be said?!

It's clear he's never been to Abbey Road...
Oops, you kind of forgot that I'm not the only one reading this thread who hasn't been to Abbey Road, together we all fall under the same judgment umbrella...

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Given that Abbey Road's main raison d'etre is orchestral recording (band DO record there, but it's few and far between - certainly was back in 2002 and apart from a few high profile acts like Florence recently, few bands book "the beatles room" - too expensive!), I look forward to the day Smoothvibe manages to record an orchestra in his lounge, but with superior skill manages to outpercentage the actual real engineers at Abbey Road (the ones actually recording and mixing actual real projects) and end up with a "superior mix".
Good joking here, this is hilarious! heh
Old 22nd October 2013
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothVibe View Post
Oops, you kind of forgot that I'm not the only one reading this thread who hasn't been to Abbey Road, together we all fall under the same judgment umbrella...



Good joking here, this is hilarious! heh
As far as I can see, there's only one person trying to mathematically quantify what one can or can't do in a space they've never been to, given some hypothetical skill level (again arbitrarily rated), then used it to justify why they could get better results at home.

I'm not "judging" anyone by where they have or haven't been. Obviously.

And I wasn't joking. You think you can get the same result as Abbey Road at home, you need space to record an orchestra, because that's what they mainly do there.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #35
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
As far as I can see, there's only one person trying to mathematically quantify what one can or can't do in a space they've never been to, given some hypothetical skill level (again arbitrarily rated), then used it to justify why they could get better results at home.

I'm not "judging" anyone by where they have or haven't been. Obviously.

And I wasn't joking. You think you can get the same result as Abbey Road at home, you need space to record an orchestra, because that's what they mainly do there.
I do think you are smart enough to understand that with Abbey Road I was referring to ANY studio with top notch rooms, monitors, gear. So whether I have been there or not, is kind of unimportant.

And when it comes to space not being available at home. Well, if you lack the space you don't have top quality rooms/monitors.

psycho_monkey, I feel I easily countered your arguments this time!
Old 22nd October 2013
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothVibe View Post
I do think you are smart enough to understand that with Abbey Road I was referring to ANY studio with top notch rooms, monitors, gear. So whether I have been there or not, is kind of unimportant.

And when it comes to space not being available at home. Well, if you lack the space you don't have top quality rooms/monitors.

psycho_monkey, I feel I easily countered your arguments this time!
Well, I'm fairly certain you've never been to ANY high end studio...you also clearly don't spend any time with pro engineers on a regular basis, otherwise they'd set you right on a few things! So I guess my comment stands. If I'm wrong, which studios do you work out of regularly?!

Out of interest, in the time since you first posted this theory, I've recorded some acoustic for an EP I'm producing, tracked and processed some voice overs for an internal awards ceremony, recorded an artist's live in the studio set (to be mixed later), done the first revision of a track for an EP I'm producing, and today have had the backing band in for what might be the biggest boy band in the world right now - they're rehearsing in the studio, I'm providing in-ear mixes and recording the rehearsal when needed.

All of this I've done without a hint of mid side processing, without worrying about formulae or energy percentages...simply by listening and making adjustments. Might not have done any of it very well, but everyone seems happy enough with me, so can't have done it too badly!

What have YOU achieved in this time? Completed a mix yet?

It's not about "countering arguments" or creative writing on the Internet (which I concede you are amazing at), it's about producing results. Which you struggle a little more with I think....why not concentrate your energies more there?
Old 22nd October 2013
  #37
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Well, I'm fairly certain you've never been to ANY high end studio...you also clearly don't spend any time with pro engineers on a regular basis, otherwise they'd set you right on a few things! So I guess my comment stands. If I'm wrong, which studios do you work out of regularly?!

Out of interest, in the time since you first posted this theory, I've recorded some acoustic for an EP I'm producing, tracked and processed some voice overs for an internal awards ceremony, recorded an artist's live in the studio set (to be mixed later), done the first revision of a track for an EP I'm producing, and today have had the backing band in for what might be the biggest boy band in the world right now - they're rehearsing in the studio, I'm providing in-ear mixes and recording the rehearsal when needed.

All of this I've done without a hint of mid side processing, without worrying about formulae or energy percentages...simply by listening and making adjustments. Might not have done any of it very well, but everyone seems happy enough with me, so can't have done it too badly!

What have YOU achieved in this time? Completed a mix yet?

It's not about "countering arguments" or creative writing on the Internet (which I concede you are amazing at), it's about producing results. Which you struggle a little more with I think....why not concentrate your energies more there?
Good for you, I'm honestly glad that things are going that well for you!
Old 22nd October 2013
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothVibe View Post
Good for you, I'm honestly glad that things are going that well for you!
But there's nothing stopping you either...that's my point.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #39
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shreddinator's Avatar
I get the feeling that the better engineer and the better person may not always be the same. I for one enjoy reading SmoothVibe's posts. Being right all the time on the internet means very little to me. SmoothVibe takes the beatings he gets remarkably well. I think his ideas can be entertaining. If I want to learn about audio engineering I'll read tutorials on the relevant site or mag. Or watch one of the many videos by great engineers. Oh and use my ears. Good luck SmoothVibe.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #40
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
I get the feeling that the better engineer and the better person may not always be the same. I for one enjoy reading SmoothVibe's posts. Being right all the time on the internet means very little to me. SmoothVibe takes the beatings he gets remarkably well. I think his ideas can be entertaining. If I want to learn about audio engineering I'll read tutorials on the relevant site or mag. Or watch one of the many videos by great engineers. Oh and use my ears. Good luck SmoothVibe.
Thanks a lot for these kind words shreddinator, I appreciate it a lot, lately I've got some nice feedback here at GS and it's good, I really like it! During the last 6 months I've actually kind of become quite popular especially offline in the real life, I'm noticing an echo over here at GS as well. For some reason people are giving me nice words and want to be around me, I don't know why, I'm really thankful for that, it means an awful lot! I do have a lot to share though I feel like and I'm trying to share really useful and interesting gear/audio/music related stuff, from my heart. It takes some time to build trust, you have to make a few mistakes, learn from them and then rise from the ashes like a Phoenix, maybe still have some ashes left in the feathers but still keep moving forward, looking back and seeing other Phoenixes forming a tail behind me, looking forward again and bam, a psycho_monkey, a joeq...
Old 22nd October 2013
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy94 View Post
wow, my head is spinning. I think you forgot to calculate the standard deviation for suckage versus talent.
& the remote chance of getting "lucky".
Old 22nd October 2013
  #42
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevil View Post
& the remote chance of getting "lucky".
LOL
Old 22nd October 2013
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
I get the feeling that the better engineer and the better person may not always be the same. I for one enjoy reading SmoothVibe's posts. Being right all the time on the internet means very little to me. SmoothVibe takes the beatings he gets remarkably well. I think his ideas can be entertaining. If I want to learn about audio engineering I'll read tutorials on the relevant site or mag. Or watch one of the many videos by great engineers. Oh and use my ears. Good luck SmoothVibe.
If that's directed at me...I hope you've also read the vast numbers of posts where I'm actively attempting to help Smoothvibe fix his issues and maybe progress? Unfortunately it never really gets taken on board....though I thinking you do read my posts, I've never been rude about him, it's all constructive.

And I agree - his ideas are very entertaining. Unfortunately that's not necessarily conducive to a good result. If all he'd like to do is entertain, then he's doing a very good job! But I suspect that's not the idea.

It's not to do with being right, it's to do with helping - and not misleading and confusing newbies.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothVibe View Post
It takes some time to build trust, you have to make a few mistakes, learn from them and then rise from the ashes like a Phoenix, maybe still have some ashes left in the feathers but still keep moving forward, looking back and seeing other Phoenixes forming a tail behind me, looking forward again and bam, a psycho_monkey, a joeq...
Hee hee....I'm not totally sure what to say to this! I think as one poster said earlier, I'm more likely to quit entirely than adopt any working method you've ever posted I'm afraid. I don't always disagree with your outlook , just the steps you think necessary to take to get there.

I really do think I'm going to continue to take the advice of....well, just about every working engineer I've ever met or read about...over needlessly complicated calculations that don't make any sense at all, sorry bud! I think you might be waiting a while for that "Phoenix tail".
Old 23rd October 2013
  #45
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
If that's directed at me...I hope you've also read the vast numbers of posts where I'm actively attempting to help Smoothvibe fix his issues and maybe progress? Unfortunately it never really gets taken on board....though I thinking you do read my posts, I've never been rude about him, it's all constructive.

And I agree - his ideas are very entertaining. Unfortunately that's not necessarily conducive to a good result. If all he'd like to do is entertain, then he's doing a very good job! But I suspect that's not the idea.

It's not to do with being right, it's to do with helping - and not misleading and confusing newbies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Hee hee....I'm not totally sure what to say to this! I think as one poster said earlier, I'm more likely to quit entirely than adopt any working method you've ever posted I'm afraid. I don't always disagree with your outlook , just the steps you think necessary to take to get there.

I really do think I'm going to continue to take the advice of....well, just about every working engineer I've ever met or read about...over needlessly complicated calculations that don't make any sense at all, sorry bud! I think you might be waiting a while for that "Phoenix tail".
I'm not sure what to say either. For instance, I asked multiple times what you do to increase the emotional impact of a mix and didn't get any response, it's that kind of information that would help. Your image of the complexity involved in my mixing and how I use my techniques is distorted, so is your image of my mixing skills. You are saying that I'm a newbie, but I left that stage a long time ago. I'm currently on the pro level approaching the advanced pro level in terms of my skills, having no rooms/monitors so I'm using headphones, this equals medium quality rooms/monitors at best, I also have very little gear (amounts to medium quality gear), my focus has gone towards skills.

This is my current performance:

Pro skills
Medium quality rooms/monitors
Medium quality gear

->

5 * 4 + 5 * 2 + 5 * 1 = 35 = 50% performance

This is at least your performance:

Pro skills
High quality rooms/monitors
High quality gear

->

5 * 4 + 8 * 2 + 8 * 1 = 44 = 63% performance

And based on your level of experience and success, your skills are likely on the expert level, maybe even higher. Therefore, don't expect my mixing techniques to be stuff you can easily choose to rip based on what you hear in a few sound samples. For instance I don't limit in the analog domain and utilize the same headroom as you do (I currently don't have the gear to do it), only that makes an incredible impact on the result.

What I'm saying is that you can't compare your mixes to mine, they are produced in totally different landscapes. But what you can do is to share techniques about how you achieve critical mix properties, that you can do.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #46
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paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothVibe View Post
I'm currently on the pro level approaching the advanced pro level in terms of my skills, having no rooms/monitors so I'm using headphones, this equals medium quality rooms/monitors at best, I also have very little gear (amounts to medium quality gear), my focus has gone towards skills.
i'd be careful in being the judge of your own work. have pride in it, yes, but saying how good you are makes you sound boastful. humility goes a long way, especially in interacting with other human beings. other than that, i admire your tenacity and perhaps there is some method in your "madness" that will amaze your detractors!
Old 23rd October 2013
  #47
All these formulas leave me scratching my head, and it's not even itchy... wasn't there a quote on the back of some Bob Dylan album where he's asking his engineer "how do I get the wall in the plane"?

That what it seems like here, pure synesthesia... a bizarre, disjointed mathematical approach to something that is entirely emotional.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #48
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claend's Avatar
 

Experience > Talk

heh
Old 23rd October 2013
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
i'd be careful in being the judge of your own work. have pride in it, yes, but saying how good you are makes you sound boastful. humility goes a long way, especially in interacting with other human beings. other than that, i admire your tenacity and perhaps there is some method in your "madness" that will amaze your detractors!
Agree, in this case though somebody tells me what I'm not and do so not only once but 30 times maybe? So it is kind of insulting to myself not to react at some point...
Old 23rd October 2013
  #50
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paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothVibe View Post
Agree, in this case though somebody tells me what I'm not and do so not only once but 30 times maybe? So it is kind of insulting to myself not to react at some point...
you'll need a thick skin if you want to participate on internet forums! as soon as you react to criticisms, conflicting points of view, etc, in a less than humble manner, then it will be your response that will be jumped on and any point that you were trying to make will be overlooked. also, you do not have to react to everyone.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #51
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
you'll need a thick skin if you want to participate on internet forums! as soon as you react to criticisms, conflicting points of view, etc, in a less than humble manner, then it will be your response that will be jumped on and any point that you were trying to make will be overlooked. also, you do not have to react to everyone.
True and to some degree I've showed that I can do that too, since other members are commenting that I take the beatings well. That doesn't invalidate your point though, it's a good one, I do think it's got to be somewhat fair though, it's got to stay somewhat more on topic too and less "on author"... If every thread on GS would have a strict "on author not allowed" moderation policy, we wouldn't even be discussing this, instead we would go deeper into the thread topic. Paul, I'm all for the ethics you want, I support it by 100%...
Old 23rd October 2013
  #52
Gear Head
 
BajenKeno's Avatar
 

Obvious trollage.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajenKeno View Post
Obvious trollage.
Look at my posts count. If this was trollage I wouldn't have reached that posts count...
Old 23rd October 2013
  #54
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claend's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajenKeno View Post
Obvious trollage.
I'd rather say he's looking for notoriety, add some writting skills and A LOT of free time, and there you go.

He's also found the perfect "confrontational mod" giving him the attention he seems to struggle for.

All in my opinion, of course.

regards,

Carlos
Old 23rd October 2013
  #55
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by claend View Post
I'd rather say he's looking for notoriety, add some writting skills and A LOT of free time, and there you go.

He's also found the perfect "confrontational mod" giving him the attention he seems to struggle for.

All in my opinion, of course.

regards,

Carlos
My intension is to share insights that have helped me in the topics where I'm active, so that others can benefit from that too. Sometimes that knowledge is hard to invalidate, likely because it is true or because no one else can prove it wrong. I'm all for a fair on topic discussion. It has happened that I've had to abandon my experience based thesis, but that's very rare... I care a lot about not deceiving or putting out information with the intension to help but with the real world impact of causing trouble. For instance, I don't want people to think that complexity works great as a standalone way of approaching things, my point is that you need to include both simplicity and complexity and maintain a balance between the two and hence put as little limitation on things as possible. I do believe that humans are very good at applying limitations to things, we are thinking in a "this or that" way, rather than in a "this and that" way.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #56
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claend's Avatar
 

Yeah, carry on [eDITED].

regards,

Last edited by claend; 23rd October 2013 at 12:47 PM.. Reason: who cares really.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #57
Gear Maniac
 
Philip Marinelis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothVibe View Post

...The way I'm doing that, is by making a very rough assumption...

You can then use the same formula, maybe scale out the parameters, maybe make different assumptions than I do, and so on... The goal here is to entertain and to get some added insights and be able to make a little smarter investment decisions next time...

So first of all, I'm making an assumption:

"Skills are twice as significant as rooms/monitors that are twice as significant as gear"

How far from the truth this assumption is, that is difficult to say. What can be said is that most engineers find skills, rooms and monitors (incl. amplification) to be some core building blocks of how to end up with a great production result. Let's leave it at that, it is of course open to discussion in this thread...

I hope you enjoyed this...
Bold added by me for emphasis

Come on guy's I see no need to start a hot debate on this. I thought this was to entertain...

Yes, you cannot really quantify art and the formula takes many variables as constants. But I see some truth in the results.

After all, the first advice given to posters asking about upgrading or reaching a certain quality of work stuff should be/is a) practice more on your skills b) treat your room c) now it's time to upgrade.

I haven't follow Smoothvibe's posts, so I don't know his history here and what's up with him and psycho_monkey. Maybe it's more than this thread...
Old 23rd October 2013
  #58
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Marinelis View Post
Bold added by me for emphasis

Come on guy's I see no need to start a hot debate on this. I thought this was to entertain...
Exactly, those bold words shows that you have read the post as it was written and intended. I don't see any reason for a hot debate either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Marinelis View Post
But I see some truth in the results.
Interesting, I kind of see that too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Marinelis View Post
I haven't follow Smoothvibe's posts, so I don't know his history here and what's up with him and psycho_monkey. Maybe it's more than this thread...
It's some kind of attack on my credibility. Maybe guys like him that are at the top as I understand it, don't want all the good stuff out... After all I'm sharing some juicy high impact details that get straight into the hands of the newbies but when I ask him to do the same, he won't... It might be related...
Old 23rd October 2013
  #59
Gear Maniac
 
Philip Marinelis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothVibe View Post
. Maybe guys like him that are at the top as I understand it, don't want all the good stuff out... After all I'm sharing some juicy high impact details that get straight into the hands of the newbies but when I ask him to do the same, he won't... It might be related...
Oh, I don't believe that. I've learned a lot from psycho_monkey as well as others in this forum.

Maybe you just have totally different POV and just manage to make angry each other

Sent from my GT-I9300
Old 23rd October 2013
  #60
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Marinelis View Post
Oh, I don't believe that. I've learned a lot from psycho_monkey as well as others in this forum.

Maybe you just have totally different POV and just manage to make angry each other

Sent from my GT-I9300
I don't know, as far as I can remember I have not attacked his credibility based on some help he provided... There is some unbalance there...
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