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Mic help for hardcore/punk studio
Old 12th October 2013
  #1
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Mic help for hardcore/punk studio

I will hopefully be starting my own studio in the not too distant future and am trying to figure out what mics to buy. I will probably be mostly recording hardcore/punk/metal but definitely not exclusively. Although my idea is to start out by buying stuff so I can record hardcore/punk and then expand.

So far my plan is:

Drums:
Snare top - SM57/Senn e906
Snare bottom - SM57
Toms - MD421
Kick in - D112
OH - ?
Mono Room - ?

Vocals - SM7B

Guitar - SM57/MD421/e906 (maybe SM7B)

Bass - D112/SM7B/Line

So I have a few mics I haven't decided on yet and was hoping for some suggestions. I'm also open to any suggestions on the mics I've chosen.

The drum overheads being one of those. I really like the AKG C414 but they are a tad out of my price range. Some mics that I am considering are AT ATM450, Shure SM81 and AKG C451B. Anyone have any opinions on these or other suggestions?

Then there's the mono room mic, I was thinking either a TSM MT 84 or a GA mic (R1 Mk2, R1 Mk3, R2 Mk2 or maybe R1 tube). Any thoughts?

Maybe another nice mic for guitar amps?

Might need a good mic for recording clean singing as well, maybe one of the cheaper Blue mics?

I'm trying to keep this quite budget so would like to try to keep it about 400-450USD or less per mic. Also right now I only have 8 preamps which is why I'm not micing up HH, ride, kick out or other such things.

Would really appreciate the help!
Old 12th October 2013
  #2
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decocco's Avatar
 

I would invest in some high quality dynamic mics:

EV RE20, EV 635a, Sennheiser 421(get a few), Sennheiser e902, SM57 and SM58 (get a few), AKG D112, SM7B, etc...

Also, the 421's will not work on toms in every situation. They are big, and some drummers will be reluctant to move their cymbals to accommodate them. If you record a crappy drummer, he/she may hit them with sticks (they probably won't totally break, but the grill might). Sennheiser makes some nice little mics for toms.

Cascade Fatheads are great cheap ribbon mics. Good for guitars, drums, and drum room.

451's are good little SDC's. I use some Oktava MC012's also, when there aren't enough high class condensers around, and they do a really good job as close drum and cymbal mics. A good SDC pair will really come in handy when you want hi-fi stereo stuff like when recording acoustic guitars, strings, gang vocals, drum overheads, etc.

I would stick with good dynamics for vocals unless you have the cash for a nice LDC mic like a U87, etc. It's just my personal preference, YMMV.

You'll need a good DI for bass guitars. Radial JDI (passive) or J48 (active) are good. Better yet, get one of each.

You may want to consider getting a cheap little mixer so that you can mic up hats and ride etc. and send a submix of that stuff to a single channel going into your interface. This is also good if you have a metal drummer with 100 toms; you can submix them all to two channels.

Do you have headphones/personal monitoring for the bands worked out?
Old 12th October 2013
  #3
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Enginearing's Avatar
 

Wouldn't bother with a D112 for kick drum in your chosen genre... Sennheiser 902 or Audix D6 would be a good start. RE20 and M88 are staples for good reason too.

421s on toms are great but can be cumbersome. E604 or e904 are nice and CAD M179 get raved about for toms too, must try some soon..

You have the right idea with overheads all pod options, the AKG 451 are great, though Warhead at Zenpro Audio will do you a fantastic deal on two ATM450s (I just grabbed a 2nd pair I liked the first ones enough)

Ribbons are great, and the Cascades are cheap... Pair of those will serve you well... I heads room mics, guitars etc.
Beyerdynamic M201 is a really versatile mic and sound fantastic on so many different sources, a fav on snare.

Agree with getting one of each Radial JDI and J48 DI boxes. I also got myself a JDX (cabinet DI), quite a handy piece of kit, great dry mono head sound to blend with microphones signals
Old 13th October 2013
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decocco View Post
I would invest in some high quality dynamic mics:

EV RE20, EV 635a, Sennheiser 421(get a few), Sennheiser e902, SM57 and SM58 (get a few), AKG D112, SM7B, etc...

Also, the 421's will not work on toms in every situation. They are big, and some drummers will be reluctant to move their cymbals to accommodate them. If you record a crappy drummer, he/she may hit them with sticks (they probably won't totally break, but the grill might). Sennheiser makes some nice little mics for toms.

Cascade Fatheads are great cheap ribbon mics. Good for guitars, drums, and drum room.

451's are good little SDC's. I use some Oktava MC012's also, when there aren't enough high class condensers around, and they do a really good job as close drum and cymbal mics. A good SDC pair will really come in handy when you want hi-fi stereo stuff like when recording acoustic guitars, strings, gang vocals, drum overheads, etc.

I would stick with good dynamics for vocals unless you have the cash for a nice LDC mic like a U87, etc. It's just my personal preference, YMMV.

You'll need a good DI for bass guitars. Radial JDI (passive) or J48 (active) are good. Better yet, get one of each.

You may want to consider getting a cheap little mixer so that you can mic up hats and ride etc. and send a submix of that stuff to a single channel going into your interface. This is also good if you have a metal drummer with 100 toms; you can submix them all to two channels.

Do you have headphones/personal monitoring for the bands worked out?
I've tried the RE20 before and liked it, not really sure I'll be buying it right away since it's a little expensive. Not sure it's the perfect kick mic for hardcore/punk but I'm sure I'll be able to use it for several things.

SM58s, really? Haven't seen it used at all in any studios I've been in. I have one but I use it for live.

I guess that is a good point, I've always used them for toms in the past and think they sound great and they've never been a problem. I know a lot of people like 57s on toms and kick mics for floor toms so I could always have that as an alternative. Which Sennheisers where you thinking of?

Have not checked out the Fatheads before but I'll definitely look into them, have seen them mentioned here several times. Any thoughts on standard vs II?

Yea I'm really leaning towards the 451's. Yea I listened to a acoustic guitar recording with them and it sounded nice, so definitely feels like a good investment.

Hmm ok, do you have any suggestions for a good dynamic for vocals? A U87 is definitely out of my budget. I'm guessing the SM7 won't work that great for singing that isn't screaming/pretty rough yelly singing.

Ok, I was looking at getting a LA Audio DI2. The studio where I went to school used them and they worked great. They are about 1/3 of the price of the radial DIs, but I'll definitely keep them in mind. I was looking at some of the Radial reamping box's since I'd heard good things about those so I imagine their DI box's are good too.

Hmm that might be a good idea, you have any suggestions for a mixer? I will definitely be adding some more pre amps in the future so I can mic up more. Right now I have a Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 that has 8 pre amps so I figured it would be a good starting point, I feel like I should definitely be able to get a good sound even with only 8 mics. A lot of times I've miced up high hat and ride I've left them out of the mix in the end. I guess I'll just have to turn down the 100 tom metal dudes since I won't have the mics for that anyways.

Yea I think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enginearing View Post
Wouldn't bother with a D112 for kick drum in your chosen genre... Sennheiser 902 or Audix D6 would be a good start. RE20 and M88 are staples for good reason too.

421s on toms are great but can be cumbersome. E604 or e904 are nice and CAD M179 get raved about for toms too, must try some soon..

You have the right idea with overheads all pod options, the AKG 451 are great, though Warhead at Zenpro Audio will do you a fantastic deal on two ATM450s (I just grabbed a 2nd pair I liked the first ones enough)

Ribbons are great, and the Cascades are cheap... Pair of those will serve you well... I heads room mics, guitars etc.
Beyerdynamic M201 is a really versatile mic and sound fantastic on so many different sources, a fav on snare.

Agree with getting one of each Radial JDI and J48 DI boxes. I also got myself a JDX (cabinet DI), quite a handy piece of kit, great dry mono head sound to blend with microphones signals
Strange, I've heard exactly the opposite. I started a thread awhile ago when I needed help choosing mics when I was recording a friends hardcore band at school. Everyone in that thread recommended the D112 and they seemed to know what they were talking about. Hardcore/punk drum recording

Cool will definitely keep those in mind as substitutes for 421's.

Unfortunately I live in Sweden so I will be buying most of my stuff from Thomann or used here so that deal at Zenpro won't really help.

Thank you guys so much for all the help so far, I really appreciate it!
Old 13th October 2013
  #5
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DavePiatek's Avatar
 

If you dig the sound of 414s, you should try the 214s. They are a single-diaphragm version of the 414, so they're cardioid only. Other than that, they sound very similar, and if you're looking for overheads, they might be a good choice.
Old 14th October 2013
  #6
I would def. suggest akg 414 blus's for this. Drummers in punk and hardcore tender to be cymbal bashers and the blus is not a bright mic like other c414 it is dark almost to the point of cloudy. This totally helps make cymbals sound smooth. You will have to add loads of top end to make them compete but it is a rewarding trade off.
Old 14th October 2013
  #7
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Enginearing's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post

Strange, I've heard exactly the opposite. I started a thread awhile ago when I needed help choosing mics when I was recording a friends hardcore band at school. Everyone in that thread recommended the D112 and they seemed to know what they were talking about. Hardcore/punk drum recording
Mmm, that thread to me doesn't really read like 'Use D112 on kick because its good for that genre" but more like 'Based on the mics you list, use D112 on kick'. That being said I am surprised no-one said to go for the M88 or SM7 and only one listed the MD421 as an alternative.
The D112 for me seems very hit/miss and is quite susceptible to major tone change with mic placement. Get it right in up close to the head you should be able to find something that works.
It's far enough down on the list of my go-to mics that I sold the one I had.
As always YMMV.

The LA DI2 are okay quality wise, but have some features that sh¿t me enough not to recommend them (I have three I tried to sell, they didn't move).
Unconventionally, the link thru jack is effected by the PAD, so if your bass signal is too hot and you go to use PAD you end up screwing with the bassist's gain structure to his amp.
Street price on the Radials is down around $200 which is fantastic value (worth the extra over the LA), the JDI gives you a really nice sounding Jensen transformer too, the J48 response is amazingly quick and so transparent compared to lesser DIs of similar price.
Old 14th October 2013
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
I will hopefully be starting my own studio in the not too distant future and am trying to figure out what mics to buy. I will probably be mostly recording hardcore/punk/metal but definitely not exclusively. Although my idea is to start out by buying stuff so I can record hardcore/punk and then expand.

So far my plan is:

Drums:
Snare top - SM57/Senn e906
Snare bottom - SM57
Toms - MD421
Kick in - D112
OH - ?
Mono Room - ?

Vocals - SM7B

Guitar - SM57/MD421/e906 (maybe SM7B)

Bass - D112/SM7B/Line

So I have a few mics I haven't decided on yet and was hoping for some suggestions.

The drum overheads being one of those. I really like the AKG C414 but they are a tad out of my price range. Some mics that I am considering are AT ATM450, Shure SM81 and AKG C451B. Anyone have any opinions on these or other suggestions?

Then there's the mono room mic, I was thinking either a TSM MT 84 or a GA mic (R1 Mk2, R1 Mk3, R2 Mk2 or maybe R1 tube). Any thoughts?

Maybe another nice mic for guitar amps?

Might need a good mic for recording clean singing as well, maybe one of the cheaper Blue mics?

I'm trying to keep this quite budget so would like to try to keep it about 400-450USD or less per mic. Also right now I only have 8 preamps which is why I'm not micing up HH, ride, kick out or other such things.

Would really appreciate the help!
We do primarily this style here. Some of our go to's (which range from cheap to semi spendy but it will make your job a lot easier):

Kick: beta 52, 421 inside sometimes for more presence (this is more common than I once thought; the original ones sound less pre eqed which you may already know), D112 is good as well, D6 is cool for metal, mid tempo punk I don't love the EQ curve, YMMV

Snare top: i5, 57, re-15(<seriously it rules, don't point it down, point it across), whatever mic you like, there's a lot of taste involved there

Snare bottom/ shell / crotch: re-635a (but often too much bleed), 57, C42 (josephson, LOVE the SDC here, this was the primary shell sound on Dookie, I believe with a sennheiser(?) could be wrong..) senn e-604 (small, easy to place)

OH: KM-184, C-42 (don't place them too close, these bands are cymbal bashers!) nice pair or mono with some (one) LDC(s). Tube pre or mic sounds great to round off that bashing (if that presents itself. I love the VMP-2)

Toms: MC-012 (needs almost no gain, people swear by them. I prefer 421's. The 421-IIs are fine.

FOK/Mono room sometimes : soundelux U195 (the 95 is tube and kinda better).

Rooms: any nice LDC that you can afford. Ribbons can be great here too. The aforementioned fatheads are great and cheap, but there's a lot of better options.

Bass: I like SDC's from a little ways back, U87's can sound great, ribbons I don't always love but sometimes jammy for some trash. LDD or SDD can be cool as well.

Guitars: R-121!!!! (Seriously just set it up into a good pre and you'll never have to argue about tone again ... Within reason..) 57 and 421 in combo is _great_. You've heard that on countless punk records. Get a tube pre or a neve clone. You'll be smiling. Fatheads can be cool on a budget.

VOX: SM7! Cheap, classic, sexy. Try with and without filter and pop screen etc. RE-20 will work less often. A nice LDC (but this will probably rarely beat a good LDD). An SDD is worth considering too! This can be heard on many classic punk records.


As always YMMV
Happy shopping
--a
Old 14th October 2013
  #9
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+1 for about everything nosleep mentioned. I've had the opportunity to have done a collection of crust to sludge to typical hardcore punk bands for a good few years. Most of the mics listed were not only what I've personally had to pick because of similar budget restraints (yeah me and everyone else) but what I've seen used in higher end pro studios for over a decade now.
I'd suggest buying a bunch of 57's as well. Often enough when nothing else was quite getting the job done the 57's came through. Sometimes live venues sell some if their used stock and you can pick up half a dozen for really cheap. Great extra mics as well
Akg 414 and sm7's are going to get used a lot since they're both so versatile and especially the sm7 for screaming and growling and what not, as well as guitars. Getting radial splitter Di so you can track Di and reamp using different settings and fx is also a kind of must have.
The 214 was also another good suggestion and like its older brother is a very versatile mic

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G
Old 14th October 2013
  #10
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herecomesyourman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
I will hopefully be starting my own studio in the not too distant future and am trying to figure out what mics to buy. I will probably be mostly recording hardcore/punk/metal but definitely not exclusively. Although my idea is to start out by buying stuff so I can record hardcore/punk and then expand.

So far my plan is:

Drums:
Snare top - SM57/Senn e906
Snare bottom - SM57
Toms - MD421
Kick in - D112
OH - ?
Mono Room - ?

Vocals - SM7B

Guitar - SM57/MD421/e906 (maybe SM7B)

Bass - D112/SM7B/Line

So I have a few mics I haven't decided on yet and was hoping for some suggestions.

The drum overheads being one of those. I really like the AKG C414 but they are a tad out of my price range. Some mics that I am considering are AT ATM450, Shure SM81 and AKG C451B. Anyone have any opinions on these or other suggestions?

Then there's the mono room mic, I was thinking either a TSM MT 84 or a GA mic (R1 Mk2, R1 Mk3, R2 Mk2 or maybe R1 tube). Any thoughts?

Maybe another nice mic for guitar amps?

Might need a good mic for recording clean singing as well, maybe one of the cheaper Blue mics?

I'm trying to keep this quite budget so would like to try to keep it about 400-450USD or less per mic. Also right now I only have 8 preamps which is why I'm not micing up HH, ride, kick out or other such things.

Would really appreciate the help!

If I was starting over from scratch...I would plan 16 channels of mic pres, AD/DA and mics...so I don't know what you're using, but I'll give you what my thoughts are.

AD/DA:

I would just get an Orion by Antelope ($2,995), they seem to have ironed out most of the kinks, it's 32 I/O in one unit...greener tech, great sounding, and it would allow for further expansion later on down the line. Plus it uses DSubs which are simpler (less of a rats nest.)

Preamps and a few good compressors:

I would go with two sets of 8, but I would make sure that both sets are the same type of pre each (For many technical and budget focused reasons that I won't bother with listing out.)

First off I'd want 8 7th Circle A12a's in a 2U rack (with the labels, spring for 'em, they're cheap.) That's essentially 8 channels of API for $3,500 about. (A little over that with shipping.) You really can't beat that deal anywhere. For any price.

Second I'd think about four FMR RNP's. (Here's why...)

For about $4,750 I could have four 3 unit trays with four RNP's (8 channels of preamps that are better than anything SSL has ever made), two RNLA's...two RNC's...and four PBC-6a's (Poor mans Distressor)

That's a whole lot of useful compression and 16 great channels on a decent budget...all in all with the AD/DA you're looking at 12 Large with wiring...which is actually fairly cheap for the flexibility.

Mics:

DRUMS
  • x2 Telefunken M82 (For kick drums...since some people prefer using two) - $400 each. (800 Total.)
  • SM57 (Snare top) $75.
  • x4 Telefunken M80-SH *Snub nosed version of the M80 mic...smaller and perfect to mic toms with.) - $250 each. ($1,000 total.)
  • x2 Josephson C42 (SDC Matched Pair #01 for overheads) - $975
  • x2 Shure KSM137 (SDC Matched Pair #02 for high-hat and snare bottom) - $665
  • Bock Audio 195 (LDC for FRONT OF KICK placement) - $1,250

GUITARS and...everything else
  • Shure KSM313/NE (Ribbon mic for bass cabinets) - $1,295. *(I actually own and prefer it's $2,700 big brother, the KSM353...which used to be called the "el diablo". But bass cabs are really worth the money and the effort to get right...plus it's occasionally good on vocals and smashing on acoustic guitars and guitar amps. (So for overdubs later, leads, etc.)
  • x2 SM57 (For two guitar cabinets) - $75 each. ($150 total.)

From there I'd think about getting a selection of vocal mics...but an SM7b is fine to start ($350)

That being said my mic list is at about $6,560 for 16 channels...so with my AD/DA, pres and compressors you're looking at a little less than $18,000


How I'd set things up is like so:

RNP with RNC 1 (Overheads)
RNP with RNC 2 (Floor Toms)
RNP with RNLA 1 (Rack Toms)
RNP with RNLA 2 (Kick drums 1 & 2)

A12a 1 w/ PBC-6a 1 (Snare Top)
A12a 2 w/ PBC-6a 2 (Snare Bottom)
A12a 3 w/ PBC-6a 3 (Front of Kick)
A12a 4 w/ PBC-6a 4 (Bass Cabinet)
A12a 5 (Hi-Hat)
A12a 6 (Guitar Cab 1)
A12a 7 (Guitar Cab 2)
A12a 8 (Scratch Vocals)

Then wire up a DI box for Bass DI via one of the open I/O on the Orion.

Down the road as you get some more money I'd think about more ribbon mics for your guitar cabs, using one really great, but different mic for each cab live will sound a bit more defined than many mics thrown on one cabinet.

Overdubs can be a bit more complex with two or three mics to mult if you like...but this keeps it all fairly simple and easy to dial in.

The faster transient response of the clearer RNP's will work great with things that have huge bottom end like the toms...and for overheads...the mid-range push of the API clone A12a's will really give your snares, kick drums, guitars, and bass a lot of warmth with definition and punch.

Later on some Neveish something or another is in order, but to start this is actually a really economic way to go with class A designs.

Don't discount the RNC and RNLA compressors...they become balanced I/O when hard-wired into an RNP so your overheads and toms will get the right kind of light to medium compression to really feel big in a mix.

The Josephson C42's are great and clear for overhead use...big sounding...and the Shure KSM137's have HPF which will cut the rumble out when focusing on Hi-hat and snare bottom...use the big switch on the Bock 195 for FOK duty and you're pretty much done since you can use the four PBC-6a's on the sources that really need a lot of compression in a controlled manner.
Old 14th October 2013
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omnialinx View Post
+1 for about everything nosleep mentioned. I've had the opportunity to have done a collection of crust to sludge to typical hardcore punk bands for a good few years. Most of the mics listed were not only what I've personally had to pick because of similar budget restraints (yeah me and everyone else) but what I've seen used in higher end pro studios for over a decade now.
I'd suggest buying a bunch of 57's as well. Often enough when nothing else was quite getting the job done the 57's came through. Sometimes live venues sell some if their used stock and you can pick up half a dozen for really cheap. Great extra mics as well
Akg 414 and sm7's are going to get used a lot since they're both so versatile and especially the sm7 for screaming and growling and what not, as well as guitars. Getting radial splitter Di so you can track Di and reamp using different settings and fx is also a kind of must have.
The 214 was also another good suggestion and like its older brother is a very versatile mic

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G
Absolutely to the 414 .. Should have mentioned. And yeah, the 57 never really sounds _bad_ on anything, which makes it pretty invaluable
Old 14th October 2013
  #12
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Also picking up a seventh circle rack plus a few rnc's is a pretty great idea. Wish I had done something similar when I first started. That would be a really decent front end. Great platform to build with. Plus if you wanted a little flavor you could always switch out the a12's for another of their clones. Smartly high end affordability. Which I might add would be a great name for a studio that exclusively recorded and mixed prog-rock.
Old 14th October 2013
  #13
Punk rock ain't suppost to sound good! It should sound like things falling apart!
Old 14th October 2013
  #14
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herecomesyourman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by omnialinx View Post
Also picking up a seventh circle rack plus a few rnc's is a pretty great idea. Wish I had done something similar when I first started. That would be a really decent front end. Great platform to build with. Plus if you wanted a little flavor you could always switch out the a12's for another of their clones. Smartly high end affordability. Which I might add would be a great name for a studio that exclusively recorded and mixed prog-rock.
You might as well go with 8 channels of A12s pres...and then just make a second rack later with 8 N72's when you go to 24 tracks.

If you go with four RNP's for clean that's 8 clean, 8 API style channels...and 8 Neve channels...you pretty much wouldn't ever need anything else.
Old 14th October 2013
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omnialinx View Post
Also picking up a seventh circle rack plus a few rnc's is a pretty great idea. Wish I had done something similar when I first started. That would be a really decent front end. Great platform to build with. Plus if you wanted a little flavor you could always switch out the a12's for another of their clones. Smartly high end affordability. Which I might add would be a great name for a studio that exclusively recorded and mixed prog-rock.
We started with a seventh circle audio rack and I love them, I see their pres in very high end studios as well, and engineers who I know and respect love them. I would recommend some N72s as well because they sound great, but the A12's are also great. A plus with the N72's is they can be wired for fully variable fader output, which can essentially act as a pad (which is great for a lot of instruments in this thread, loud gtrs, cymbals, snare, etc), and the A12's only have a pad of 2 db on the output fader. Useful for when you need a difference in between 5 db increments, but less useful generally. The pres are totally different beasts though, so of course horses for courses. We run 4 N72's and 2 A12's here ( would love to get the twin servo for the last two!).

Personally for punk tracking I would jump at a hairball 1176 and drip la2a (or similar clones) on a budget before RNC for the vibe, which gets used constantly here (an 1176 is an indispensable tracking comp), or a distressor which can paint you so many different colors in mixing or tracking (and the dist options give you great color itb), but that is more importantly a taste thing. But you've heard the1176 on a lot of vocals. I think the price you can get a clone for makes it worth consideration
Old 14th October 2013
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
You might as well go with 8 channels of A12s pres...and then just make a second rack later with 8 N72's when you go to 24 tracks.

If you go with four RNP's for clean that's 8 clean, 8 API style channels...and 8 Neve channels...you pretty much wouldn't ever need anything else.
To start I would rather have 4 channels of neve _and_ 4 of API.. Right? API is not always the right color.. Absolutely agree on many of your points though.
Old 14th October 2013
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
To start I would rather have 4 channels of neve _and_ 4 of API.. Right? API is not always the right color.. Absolutely agree on many of your points though.
Oh I meant if you wanted 24 channels...8 clean, 8 neve, 8 API gives you a lot of flexibility is all...you can always pick groups of the same type when you need them, or mix and match.

The neve thing has the most low mid range and the smoothest top...the API will have the aggressive upper mids...and the the clean pres will have a flatter image with a more pristine top end (fast transient response.)

If I mic an acoustic solo player for something...I can use all the same type and make it feel cohesive...if I have a drum kit...I can use some each to get the best response before EQ on each part of the kit, etc.

If you don't need as many channels four of each is fine...but I'd plan however many you will end overall and just buy in batches...it's simpler, easier to wire up to a patch bay...one and done. I like having 8 of each type personally is all since it suits my workflow.
Old 14th October 2013
  #18
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But the initial post was about mics, so dont want to derail the thread into general studio startup zone. After all you may already have 10 tracking comps for all we know...
Old 14th October 2013
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
Oh I meant if you wanted 24 channels...8 clean, 8 neve, 8 API gives you a lot of flexibility is all...you can always pick groups of the same type when you need them, or mix and match.

The neve thing has the most low mid range and the smoothest top...the API will have the aggressive upper mids...and the the clean pres will have a flatter image with a more pristine top end (fast transient response.)

If I mic an acoustic solo player for something...I can use all the same type and make it feel cohesive...if I have a drum kit...I can use some each to get the best response before EQ on each part of the kit, etc.

If you don't need as many channels four of each is fine...but I'd plan however many you will end overall and just buy in batches...it's simpler, easier to wire up to a patch bay...one and done. I like having 8 of each type personally is all since it suits my workflow.
Yeah totally Understood and agreed
Old 14th October 2013
  #20
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herecomesyourman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
But the initial post was about mics, so dont want to derail the thread into general studio startup zone. After all you may already have 10 tracking comps for all we know...
Actually I broke it up into preamps to match with mics so I could think about mics from scratch in order to match 'em up with pres that would fit each instrument.

The thing about mics...is that they're basically EQ's. They all have curves depending on the design...so if you can't afford a console...or full channel strips...or external EQ's for every preamp you own...then you kind of need to think about how the pres you have will sound matched up with the mics in your cabinet.

I went with 8 clean and 8 API style pres because those two overall are the most cost effective...and cover 80-90% of a modern sounding rock kit.

So...you'll note for stuff like C42's which are clearer sounding SDC I matched them with the RNP chained with an RNC...the cleanest signal chain in the group. For snare bottom I went with the PBC-6a through A12 using the Shure KSM137 since it has a HPF to really focus up the pushed upper mids of the snare drum.

Maybe I'm just kind of spaced and tired tonight...but I couldn't think of a mic combo without a signal chain.
Old 14th October 2013
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
Actually I broke it up into preamps to match with mics so I could think about mics from scratch in order to match 'em up with pres that would fit each instrument.

The thing about mics...is that they're basically EQ's. They all have curves depending on the design...so if you can't afford a console...or full channel strips...or external EQ's for every preamp you own...then you kind of need to think about how the pres you have will sound matched up with the mics in your cabinet.

I went with 8 clean and 8 API style pres because those two overall are the most cost effective...and cover 80-90% of a modern sounding rock kit.

So...you'll note for stuff like C42's which are clearer sounding SDC I matched them with the RNP chained with an RNC...the cleanest signal chain in the group. For snare bottom I went with the PBC-6a through A12 using the Shure KSM137 since it has a HPF to really focus up the pushed upper mids of the snare drum.

Maybe I'm just kind of spaced and tired tonight...but I couldn't think of a mic combo without a signal chain.
No I think your mic recommendations are good. Zero worries
Old 14th October 2013
  #22
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omnialinx's Avatar
Both of your guys points are dead on and although he did ask more about mics alone, everyone of those mics when paired with a different pre amp will have its own character. So in a sense to get the best overall quality one can't ask the one without thinking about the other and the specifics of the entire channel are what makes them all so Damn good. I have had stellar results with vocal chains of akg 414-Neve clone-pbc. But also incredibly punchy chugga guitars with sm7-API clone-RNC.
+1 on any poor man's 1176 clone. A must have IMHO.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G
Old 14th October 2013
  #23
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szmola's Avatar
Short comment about 451b for punk drumming.
Too bright!
Old 14th October 2013
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

Neumann km184s are great for ohs in those genres

Or oktava mk 012s

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317
Old 14th October 2013
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omnialinx View Post
Both of your guys points are dead on and although he did ask more about mics alone, everyone of those mics when paired with a different pre amp will have its own character. So in a sense to get the best overall quality one can't ask the one without thinking about the other and the specifics of the entire channel are what makes them all so Damn good. I have had stellar results with vocal chains of akg 414-Neve clone-pbc. But also incredibly punchy chugga guitars with sm7-API clone-RNC.
+1 on any poor man's 1176 clone. A must have IMHO.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G
Well put! Cheers
Old 14th October 2013
  #26
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Vintageidiot's Avatar
Wow, the original OP can't get a word in edgewise....
Old 14th October 2013
  #27
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decocco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
SM58s, really? Haven't seen it used at all in any studios I've been in. I have one but I use it for live.
They are great for scratch vocals or as talkback mics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
Which Sennheisers where you thinking of?
e604. They are fairly small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
Have not checked out the Fatheads before but I'll definitely look into them, have seen them mentioned here several times. Any thoughts on standard vs II?
I have only used the Fathead II, and I liked them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
I'm guessing the SM7 won't work that great for singing that isn't screaming/pretty rough yelly singing.
SM7 is fine for any singing. No dynamic will have that big LDC sound. Other good dynamics for vocals are 421 and RE20. They are all different and good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
Ok, I was looking at getting a LA Audio DI2.
I've never heard of that, doesn't mean it's bad. I am very spoiled because I normally use very expensive tube DIs. DIs vary greatly in quality. The Radials are high quality DIs, but not crazy expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
Hmm that might be a good idea, you have any suggestions for a mixer?
Pretty much anything will work. Mackie is reasonably cheap and good. Just don't get something that is ridiculously cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
I feel like I should definitely be able to get a good sound even with only 8 mics. A lot of times I've miced up high hat and ride I've left them out of the mix in the end.
Yes, you should get a good sound with 8 mics. If that's all you need, then go for it!
Old 14th October 2013
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlkaardal View Post
I will hopefully be starting my own studio in the not too distant future and am trying to figure out what mics to buy. I will probably be mostly recording hardcore/punk/metal but definitely not exclusively. Although my idea is to start out by buying stuff so I can record hardcore/punk and then expand.

So far my plan is:

Drums:
Snare top - SM57/Senn e906
Snare bottom - SM57
Toms - MD421
Kick in - D112
OH - ?
Mono Room - ?

Vocals - SM7B

Guitar - SM57/MD421/e906 (maybe SM7B)

Bass - D112/SM7B/Line

So I have a few mics I haven't decided on yet and was hoping for some suggestions.

The drum overheads being one of those. I really like the AKG C414 but they are a tad out of my price range. Some mics that I am considering are AT ATM450, Shure SM81 and AKG C451B. Anyone have any opinions on these or other suggestions?

Then there's the mono room mic, I was thinking either a TSM MT 84 or a GA mic (R1 Mk2, R1 Mk3, R2 Mk2 or maybe R1 tube). Any thoughts?

Maybe another nice mic for guitar amps?

Might need a good mic for recording clean singing as well, maybe one of the cheaper Blue mics?

I'm trying to keep this quite budget so would like to try to keep it about 400-450USD or less per mic. Also right now I only have 8 preamps which is why I'm not micing up HH, ride, kick out or other such things.

Would really appreciate the help!
Hardcore punk like Black Flag or Comeback Kid? Huge differences between those production wise.
Old 15th October 2013
  #29
Here for the gear
 

Wow this response has been great, way more than I expected! Thanks a lot everyone! Unfortunately I've been really busy the past couple days, and am again today, so I probably won't get around to answering most of this until tomorrow.

I can say this, I really appreciate the thought being put into which pres and comps that would work well with the mics as well. Unfortunately I won't be buying all of that right now, as my plan is to start very budget and simple. Since I don't have a lot of experience I just want to get started, feel like that's the best way to learn so I'm not going to be pouring a bunch of money into this just yet. I will definitely keep it in mind for future reference though. I think it's great that people are giving suggestions on things outside of just the mics, even though that was what I originally asked for.

Right now I have a Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 which has 8 pres (6 "normal" focusrite pres and 2 of their liquid channels that emulate a bunch of well known pres: neeve, api, etc). I want to start with this and see how it goes, I'm well aware that I will upgrade this in the future but for now I think it'll be good for my needs.

Don't have any outboard comps or eqs planned but I have been getting really interested in the RNC and RNLA recently. Nice seeing people mention them here too, might just have to get them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanvoth View Post
Hardcore punk like Black Flag or Comeback Kid? Huge differences between those production wise.
I guess more Comeback Kid (since that's the kind of hardcore I love) but I'd like to be able to work with any kind of hardcore, or really any genre at all for that matter.
Old 18th October 2013
  #30
Here for the gear
 

Now that I finally have some time I thought I'd try to answer most of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePiatek View Post
If you dig the sound of 414s, you should try the 214s. They are a single-diaphragm version of the 414, so they're cardioid only. Other than that, they sound very similar, and if you're looking for overheads, they might be a good choice.
I haven actually never heard of the 214s, if they sound very similar to the 414s then I will definitely consider getting a pair, seeing as they are much more within my budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Carson View Post
I would def. suggest akg 414 blus's for this. Drummers in punk and hardcore tender to be cymbal bashers and the blus is not a bright mic like other c414 it is dark almost to the point of cloudy. This totally helps make cymbals sound smooth. You will have to add loads of top end to make them compete but it is a rewarding trade off.
Hmm I'm not so sure I like the sound of "dark almost to the point of cloudy". I feel like the brightness of the 414s is what I liked about them, I think I would rather just have the OH lower in the mix than have to add a bunch of top end to make it sound good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enginearing View Post
Mmm, that thread to me doesn't really read like 'Use D112 on kick because its good for that genre" but more like 'Based on the mics you list, use D112 on kick'. That being said I am surprised no-one said to go for the M88 or SM7 and only one listed the MD421 as an alternative.
The D112 for me seems very hit/miss and is quite susceptible to major tone change with mic placement. Get it right in up close to the head you should be able to find something that works.
It's far enough down on the list of my go-to mics that I sold the one I had.
As always YMMV.

The LA DI2 are okay quality wise, but have some features that sh¿t me enough not to recommend them (I have three I tried to sell, they didn't move).
Unconventionally, the link thru jack is effected by the PAD, so if your bass signal is too hot and you go to use PAD you end up screwing with the bassist's gain structure to his amp.
Street price on the Radials is down around $200 which is fantastic value (worth the extra over the LA), the JDI gives you a really nice sounding Jensen transformer too, the J48 response is amazingly quick and so transparent compared to lesser DIs of similar price.
Maybe you're right, that's just how I interpreted it. I've also seen and heard of people who work with punk and hardcore that like the D112, but maybe I should look at some alternatives. I mean I will definitely be buying the SM7 anyways so I can always use that. I'll see what I end up doing, I might get a D112 to start with anyways since it's cheap and should be easy to sell if I don't like it later on.

I didn't know that about the LA DI2, that definitely seems like a disadvantage. Maybe I'll have to go for the extra cost of a Radial DI instead since they seem to have such a good reputation. Plus they have a package of the J48 and x amp which is pretty good since I need a re amping box too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
Kick: beta 52, 421 inside sometimes for more presence (this is more common than I once thought; the original ones sound less pre eqed which you may already know), D112 is good as well, D6 is cool for metal, mid tempo punk I don't love the EQ curve, YMMV
I've never actually used the beta 52 but it might be worth a try, not too expensive either. Will definitely try the 421 inside also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
Snare top: i5, 57, re-15(<seriously it rules, don't point it down, point it across), whatever mic you like, there's a lot of taste involved there
I've heard a lot of great stuff about the i5 and the price is great on that too so I'll probably pick one of those up too just to have some different snare mics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
Snare bottom/ shell / crotch: re-635a (but often too much bleed), 57, C42 (josephson, LOVE the SDC here, this was the primary shell sound on Dookie, I believe with a sennheiser(?) could be wrong..) senn e-604 (small, easy to place)

OH: KM-184, C-42 (don't place them too close, these bands are cymbal bashers!) nice pair or mono with some (one) LDC(s). Tube pre or mic sounds great to round off that bashing (if that presents itself. I love the VMP-2)
The KM 184 is unfortunately out of my price range, although they do sound good. The C-42 is doable but not a third one just for snare bottom, I'll probably go with a 57 there instead. Will keep the tube pre tip in mind when I start adding more pres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
Rooms: any nice LDC that you can afford. Ribbons can be great here too. The aforementioned fatheads are great and cheap, but there's a lot of better options.
Have any suggestions on other better ribbons that aren't too expensive?

Guitars: R-121!!!! (Seriously just set it up into a good pre and you'll never have to argue about tone again ... Within reason..) 57 and 421 in combo is _great_. You've heard that on countless punk records. Get a tube pre or a neve clone. You'll be smiling. Fatheads can be cool on a budget.[/QUOTE]

I love the R-121, it sounds fantastic on a lot of stuff (I especially remember an acoustic guitar recording I did with a pair of them that turned out great). Unfortunately it is way too expensive right now, I will definitely consider getting one sometime in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
If I was starting over from scratch...I would plan 16 channels of mic pres, AD/DA and mics...so I don't know what you're using, but I'll give you what my thoughts are.

Preamps and a few good compressors:

Second I'd think about four FMR RNP's. (Here's why...)

For about $4,750 I could have four 3 unit trays with four RNP's (8 channels of preamps that are better than anything SSL has ever made), two RNLA's...two RNC's...and four PBC-6a's (Poor mans Distressor)

Mics:

DRUMS
  • x2 Telefunken M82 (For kick drums...since some people prefer using two) - $400 each. (800 Total.)
  • SM57 (Snare top) $75.
  • x4 Telefunken M80-SH *Snub nosed version of the M80 mic...smaller and perfect to mic toms with.) - $250 each. ($1,000 total.)
  • x2 Josephson C42 (SDC Matched Pair #01 for overheads) - $975
  • x2 Shure KSM137 (SDC Matched Pair #02 for high-hat and snare bottom) - $665
  • Bock Audio 195 (LDC for FRONT OF KICK placement) - $1,250

GUITARS and...everything else
  • Shure KSM313/NE (Ribbon mic for bass cabinets) - $1,295. *(I actually own and prefer it's $2,700 big brother, the KSM353...which used to be called the "el diablo". But bass cabs are really worth the money and the effort to get right...plus it's occasionally good on vocals and smashing on acoustic guitars and guitar amps. (So for overdubs later, leads, etc.)
  • x2 SM57 (For two guitar cabinets) - $75 each. ($150 total.)
Shortened your post a bit to take what was most relevant right now. I really appreciate all the thought you put into it, unfortunately I just don't have that budget right now and I don't feel comfortable jumping straight into this with that much money. To be honest I really don't know if this is something I'll be able to make a living out of for the rest of my life so I want to start a little safer so if I do decide to back out early I won't be losing too much money.

Really interested in the FMR comps, I was a little worried first since they were so cheap but after having read up a bit on them I think I'll have to get some.

Great mic tips, unfortunately some of them are too expensive right now but I will definitely keep them in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
Personally for punk tracking I would jump at a hairball 1176 and drip la2a (or similar clones) on a budget before RNC for the vibe, which gets used constantly here (an 1176 is an indispensable tracking comp), or a distressor which can paint you so many different colors in mixing or tracking (and the dist options give you great color itb), but that is more importantly a taste thing. But you've heard the1176 on a lot of vocals. I think the price you can get a clone for makes it worth consideration
Do you have any other clones you could recommend (not too knowledgeable in this field)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanvegas View Post
Neumann km184s are great for ohs in those genres

Or oktava mk 012s

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317
Hmm those mk 012s have been mentioned several times now and the price fits me pretty well also, will have to do some more research but they are definitely becoming a contender for OHs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by szmola View Post
Short comment about 451b for punk drumming.
Too bright!
Really? Seems like a lot of people are recommending them and I listen to some sound samples and liked what I heard.
Topic:
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