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Guitar Player in Control Room, Amp in live Room
Old 18th September 2006
  #1
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HiRaX's Avatar
 

Guitar Player in Control Room, Amp in live Room

You guys are going to laugh but, I haven't done this in so long.
I just finished setting up a patchbay in our control room which obviously has ties to our live room. If I want to record a guitar player playing in the control room and have hes amp in the live room, all I have to do is Get a 1/4 inch TS to Bantam right? And then I can go 1/4 inch TS out of my mic box into hes amp correct?
I figure you dont need a DI?

Sorry for the extremly noobish question, but I havent worked in a large studio for a few years and cant seem to remember there being a DI involved in this.

Thanks slutz!
Old 18th September 2006
  #2
Lives for gear
if you send an unbalanced, high impedance signal through a snake I am pretty sure you are going to get a lot of noise at the amp. I usually use a pair of DI's (one on each end) to balance the signal over the snake and unbalance it before it hits the amp. I use the whirlwind ones (about $30 each I believe) and I cannot hear a difference between sending the signal across the house and plugging straight in.
Old 18th September 2006
  #3
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Cool, I have 2 Radial JDI's. Im sure they should work just fine.
Thanks
Old 18th September 2006
  #4
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bobx's Avatar
i like having the amp head in the control room so it's easier to tweak the knobs if i have to. and i usually run a longer speaker cable. but my run is pretty short (less than 20'). i hear no difference in tone when i use a decent speaker cable. but it obviously doesn't work if i'm recording a combo amp.
Old 18th September 2006
  #5
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We just got the smart research DI system that was made specifically for this. It's great, and dosen't change the tone of the guitar at all (at least to my ears). Useing two passave DI boxes did change the tone quite a bit in my experience. There's also a ton of different things you can do with these.

check it out. (no I don't work for them)

http://www.mercenary.com/smarressmard.html
Old 18th September 2006
  #6
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Thats pretty sweet, but I think i'll stick with my 2 Radials. $450 is a little pricey just for being able to plug in a Guitar.
Old 18th September 2006
  #7
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HiRax, that's genious. That's such a powerful thing to consider when working solo playing/recording and want to capture a sound but be distant from the sound when trying to get an honest signal and not room reverberation.
Old 18th September 2006
  #8
Old 18th September 2006
  #9
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juicylime's Avatar
 

I used to record this way alot too. If you can have the amp head in the control room with you as mentioned above it gets even easier. Although there is a school of thought that suggests that if you record this way that you should turn up the control room monitors as loud as possible because there is important interaction going on between the guitar tone through speakers/air and the pick ups. One of my experiences with this method is that, depending on the type of music and guitarist, the player can end up sitting back a little in their playing, almost like they're not quite as "sure" of exactly what's going on. It's definitely not for everyone. And I for one beleive there is something in the whole loud speaker thing.
Old 18th September 2006
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soupking View Post
HiRax, that's genious. That's such a powerful thing to consider when working solo playing/recording and want to capture a sound but be distant from the sound when trying to get an honest signal and not room reverberation.
Soup, this is a pretty standard thing that pretty much happens during any guitar overdub.
Some players are more comfortable playing in the control room where they can hear themselves better than listening through cans in the live room.
Thanks for the compliment though
Wish I was the one who thought of this setup, but i'm sure it has been happening since before I was even born.
Old 18th September 2006
  #11
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drew's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelabs View Post

The LittleLabs box is great. When I got mine I did tests and it sounds great.
Old 18th September 2006
  #12
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Quote:
Soup, this is a pretty standard thing that pretty much happens during any guitar overdub.
Some players are more comfortable playing in the control room where they can hear themselves better than listening through cans in the live room.
Thanks for the compliment though
Wish I was the one who thought of this setup, but i'm sure it has been happening since before I was even born.It's interesting though. You've probably heard the expression one man's trash is another man's treasure. I believe this principle also stand with genius. One's man's mistake is another man's discovery. So after a while what is standard becomes kind of a blur.

For instance, I don't have an engineer behind the wheel and I'm recording in a rehearsal studio. Neither of which are standard, so I run into a lot of 'hmm, how the hell am i going to fix this?'.

Another example could be found in any 'best microphone' thread. Geez. That's all I'm saying about that.

I will also agree that "simplicity is the hallmark of genius" so standards are there for a reason. Knowing how to break them and get around **** that pops up. Well, that's another thread.

Peace,
-the soup
Old 19th September 2006
  #13
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carival's Avatar
Can't beat the Little Labs STD for short $. A small price to pay for not having lots of the tone sucked out of your guitar/amp.
Old 9th November 2006
  #14
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Ok, So I just had my first encounter with this situation last night in which I placed guitar player in the control room, going into a Radial JDI (Passive) into my balanced TT bay, then through a snake into the live room. Out of the mic box in live room via TS cable (Out of a TRS input on the box) back into another Radial JDI then out the thru(on the DI) into the amplifier. We found that we lost sooooooooo much gain this way. When I had him plug straight into the amp form hes guitar it was night and day. The amp wasnt gettig driven nearly enough to get the tone we needed.
Besides the long cable run, what can I use to prevent this gain loss. Do I need Active DI's? I was very disapointed and so was the player. We ended up going direct through a amp modeling FX processor.
Old 9th November 2006
  #15
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another vote for the little labs std. perfect purpose built box.
Old 9th November 2006
  #16
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robmix's Avatar
I do the head in the control room thing. For combo's I also ran some 20' guitar cables through the trough to where guitar players usually sit in the control room. Works brilliantly, avoids the patchbbay and whatever other crap is associated with balancing/unbalancing, and sounds as it should.
Old 9th November 2006
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
another vote for the little labs std. perfect purpose built box.
I don't understand how the little labs box works.
Can you explain how you set it up?
Old 9th November 2006
  #18
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The problem will be losing guitar tone in a long cable run.

The best way would be to keep the head in the control room and run a speaker line out to a cab.

If it's a combo that has to be in the live room, do the guitarist and yourself a favor and get a buffer designed for guitar, not just any ol DI. A LOT of pros use the BS2 by Axess. http://www.axess-electronics.com/
Old 10th November 2006
  #19
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aidyhall's Avatar
The Al Smart box is by far the best system I've tried to get a guitar signal to a combo amp from the control room. It's an active system, with a powered 'send' box and a passive receiving box, which is probably why it works better than using 2 back-to-back passive DI's.

Sure, it's expensive, but it works, and you don't lose any tone. Anything else is a compromise.
Old 10th November 2006
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidyhall View Post
The Al Smart box is by far the best system I've tried to get a guitar signal to a combo amp from the control room. It's an active system, with a powered 'send' box and a passive receiving box, which is probably why it works better than using 2 back-to-back passive DI's.

Sure, it's expensive, but it works, and you don't lose any tone. Anything else is a compromise.
Hey Adrian !!

How are you? Hope all is well.
Not to be contrare, but I've used the Smart and the Little Labs STD, and I'd take the STD any day of the week...

John
Old 10th November 2006
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRaX View Post
I don't understand how the little labs box works.
Can you explain how you set it up?
you should check the little labs site, a little earlier in the thread. should tell you everything. plus then you can look at the rest of jonathan's toys.
Old 10th November 2006
  #22
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I'm with Rob..I run a 30 footer...Rapco Road Hog..Sounds great..
Old 10th November 2006
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRaX View Post
I don't understand how the little labs box works.
Can you explain how you set it up?
It takes the guitar signal, buffers it for a long cable run, and changes it back to a guitar-amp ready signal.

- plug the 1/4" purple cable into the guitar
- take the XLR end of this cable and plug it into an XLR female to [your patch bay cable format], and plug that into, say, mic line 1
- out in the performance area, take a cable from your mic panel [line 1], and plug it into the XLR connector on the STD remote box [ NOTE: you will probably need an XLR turnaround, unless you have aux lines with XLR males wired onto you mic panel]
- plug a 1/4" gtr cable into the amp. engage the earth lift if there is a hum [b out only].
- rock on !!

John
Old 10th November 2006
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYMAX View Post
I'm with Rob..I run a 30 footer...Rapco Road Hog..Sounds great..
I honestly have had mixed results with cable runs that long to a guitar amp. Sometimes it works, sometimes it just doesn't sound as good...

John
Old 9th December 2006
  #25
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I use a tubescreamer almost all the time and I use 2 15' cables. It may limit you to getting up and turning the pedal off but it does work.
Old 9th December 2006
  #26
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taturana's Avatar
i find a volume pedal does fine... with long cables... and the good thing is you can mute the guitar when not recording... most of my guitar have active electronics so i don't feel there's much of a loss... and i'll be sending a direct signal directly to the computer at all times.... so if there's a problem i just reamp it later...
Old 9th December 2006
  #27
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toolskid's Avatar
 

The Al Smart boxes (encode and decode) are great for this!

http://www.smartresearch.co.uk/#SGDi
Old 10th December 2006
  #28
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heyman's Avatar
+2 on the Little Labs Std.!!!!
Old 10th December 2006
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid View Post
The Al Smart boxes (encode and decode) are great for this!

http://www.smartresearch.co.uk/#SGDi
I've asked before, so I'll take this opportunity to ask again: Is anybody using one of these? They look appealing to me, but I haven't gotten to hear any feedback on them.
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