The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Drum Mic suggestions... Condenser Microphones
Old 25th July 2013
  #1
Lives for gear
 
nickelironsteel's Avatar
 

Drum Mic suggestions...

Hi im getting a set of mics to track drums and would like to hear your opinions

1 - KICK IN - MD421 italic logo - PAD - VOVOX SONORUS - NEVE 1066 MARINAIR ROUNDCAN - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
2 - KICK OUT - U47fet - PAD - VOVOX SONORUS - NEVE 1066 MARINAIR ROUNDCAN - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
3 - SNR TOP - SM57 - PAD - PAD - VOVOX SONORUS - NEVE 1066 MARINAIR ROUNDCAN - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
4 - SNR BTM - SM57 - VOVOX SONORUS - NEVE 1066 MARINAIR ROUNDCAN - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
5 - RTOM 1 - MD421 N - VOVOX SONORUS - API 512c - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
6 - RTOM 2 - MD421 N - VOVOX SONORUS - API 512c - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
7 - RTOM 3 - MD421 N - VOVOX SONORUS - API 512c - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
8 - FTOM 4 - MD421 N - VOVOX SONORUS - API 512c - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
9 - FTOM 5 - WSW D12 - VOVOX SONORUS - API 512c - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
10 - HH - SHURE SM7B - VOVOX SONORUS - API 512c - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
11 - RIDE - ??? - VOVOX SONORUS - API 512c - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
12 - OH L - KM 184 matched pair - VOVOX SONORUS - NEVE 1066 MARINAIR GREEN/YELLOW - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
13 - OH R - KM 184 matched pair - VOVOX SONORUS - NEVE 1066 MARINAIR GREEN/YELLOW - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS
14 - ROOM M - U 67 - API 512c - LYNX AURORA 16VT - PRO TOOLS

i have no clue what to go for on the HH and Rides
what are the classics?
how would you set this up?
Old 25th July 2013
  #2
Well, since you asked... I like all your choices with a couple of exceptions.

1. SM7b on hats. To me, this makes hats sound garage-band or punk or indie like. Fine if you're trying to control slashing hats from a heavy hitter, otherwise I prefer the detail of an AKG C451 or a Neumann TLM102, or the full bodied tone of a C460.

2. Snare. I much prefer an AKG C460 with the CK1 capsule (and threaded adapter) AND/OR a Telefunken M80. Either one blows the doors off an SM57 and still retain the mid-punch that the 57 delivers.

3. Ride: Ever tried a Neumann TLM102 on ride? It is absolutely spectacular! The most realistic and usable ride cymbal recordings I have ever achieved, and I've used an awful lot of microphones. Combine it with a Neve 1272 for perfect balance.

4. I'd use 421s on all the toms, even the lowest floor tom - for consistency and ease of mix. And with the 421s, in mix position, just notch out a tiny but of 350 (like you would on kick) and a smattering of 2500 compression for perfect toms, every time.

Good luck!! I'm sure it'll sound fantastic the way you have specified, just the same.
Old 25th July 2013
  #3
Gear Nut
 
gergface21's Avatar
 

I like the Heil PR-30 a lot on Snares
Old 25th July 2013
  #4
Gear Nut
 

I much prefer an SM7 under the snare than a 57 which I find thin and unpleasant. It's not generally a nice sound under their but I find the SM7 makes it bearable. I wouldn't have thought to use the SM7 on hats, but then I've never tried... Maybe I will!
Old 26th July 2013
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8875 View Post
I much prefer an SM7 under the snare than a 57 which I find thin and unpleasant. It's not generally a nice sound under their but I find the SM7 makes it bearable. I wouldn't have thought to use the SM7 on hats, but then I've never tried... Maybe I will!
Love the Sm7 under the snare, it makes it sound like a snare. I have been really enjoying the sound of an AKGD19 on rack tom. Very natural, but not a very tight polar patter so it's not so good on drummers with low cymbals, or cymbal beaters. I ejoy the sound of an SM57 underneath the HH on the outside pointing up at it. For ride there is a mic made by AMI called an F44, I think it uses similar capsule and electronics to a neuman km84, but has an awesome output transformer, has a great shimmer. I always like to have a coles handy when recording drums. Great for a dark room, mono overhead, or I've found it useful for nice added kick snare punch when low to the floor about 2 feet in front of the kit between the kick and snare, pointing somewhere between the kick sheel, and the under side of the snare, if that makes sense. Very cool throwback 200hz chest punch. M160's rule to, stereo room, overheads, mellow ride, and a bunch of other stuff not having to do with drums. Km 184's are very nice and detailed, but are very honest, and depending on the drummer honest overheads can make your ears bleed.
Old 26th July 2013
  #6
Gear Head
 
FeelTrip's Avatar
 

Try the Miktek C5's matched pair. Really nice. Don't own, wish I did, but heard in use!
Old 26th July 2013
  #7
Gear Head
 
FeelTrip's Avatar
 

Sorry I left out a bit, and mispelt the name, Miktek C5's matched pair for HH and Ride.






Or maybe I didn't! Sorry guys, LONG day at work. Eyes playing tricks on me.
Old 26th July 2013
  #8
Old 26th July 2013
  #9
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel View Post
how would you set this up?
A LOT different, but that's me, my preference, my drummer, his kit, my room, etc., etc. But I would say one thing. If you are buying the mics and pre's, I'd think your choices thru a lot more before pulling the trigger. OH, and toms seem off to me, and a U67 for room? Cool, but an AEA 84 or MJE 205 would be more preferrable for me, and the money saved would net you a LOT better opportunities on what REALLY counts - the OH mics. Gefell's there for me. You should also definitely have some more dynamics in play. 441, RE20, D6, i5, etc., etc., and you need real KM84's. 2 min, 3-4 would be optimum. And some 179's or MJOktava219's for toms. I hate the off-axis bleed on 421's. Great mic, just not on toms. I know, I know, industry standard.....but i fought them for 20 years before seeing the light and moving on,....

Hey, this might help you solidify what you're really looking for :

Drum Mic Madness!!!!
Old 26th July 2013
  #10
Lives for gear
 
nickelironsteel's Avatar
 

Hi thanks for your comments

Md 241 on toms is whats expected and i already got 6 (2 with the italic logo and 4 n versions). Except for the u67 i got all the gear mentioned already so its just a logistics/arrangement dicision. Thanks for the sm7 hint on bottom snare seems to be popular! I finally need to invest in a proper vocal mic and i thought the u67 would do great as mono room as well- doesnt appear to be popular. The tlm102 my assistant keeps bugging me to get. Great choice for hh and ride? 4 original km84 for oh snare and ride a better option?
Old 27th July 2013
  #11
In my experience a close hihat doesn't sound good regardless of the mic, I would go for a less detailed mic, something you could pan out to the side that had more body than what the overheads capture. An AKGd224e is a good mic I forgot to mention. It looks like a pencil condenser, but is a dynamic. Also good on percussive acoustic, and killer on wurly.
Old 27th July 2013
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I hate the off-axis bleed on 421's. Great mic, just not on toms. I know, I know, industry standard.....but i fought them for 20 years before seeing the light and moving on,....l[/url]
Yes, there is a lot of off-axis bleed with 421s, but you position them VERY close and then go in and clean up the tracks after you've completed your takes. Clean up as in go through each tom track individually and delete anything that isn't a tom hit and then fade out the ending of each tom hit. It is time consuming but the results are marvellous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel View Post
The tlm102 my assistant keeps bugging me to get. Great choice for hh and ride? 4 original km84 for oh snare and ride a better option?
Listen to your assistant. I've never ever heard A better mic for ride, and that includes a KM84. I love them on hats too. you get the "point" and great off-axis rejection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cazdell View Post
In my experience a close hihat doesn't sound good regardless of the mic, I would go for a less detailed mic, something you could pan out to the side that had more body than what the overheads capture.
indeed you have exemplified the reason for a detailed hh mic. You can use a very small amount of the hats and place them in the right panning position and not have to worry about stereo image drift or phase issues. Again, "point" is the objective here. A C451 or TLM102 works brilliantly doing this.

Results vary. I only speak to my own. If, by some miracle, Gefell were to acquire or merge with Neumann, I would strongly recommend they keep the TLM102 in the line-up. It's the most surprising Neumann in decades.
Old 27th July 2013
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Gretschman's Avatar
 

I'm using Josephson Es22 mics on
all drums except kick . For kick I use a Shure kms 353 ribbon .

HH is an Es22 , crash and rides
Gefell 930's

Overheads Josephson 617 pair

Crane Song spider and flamingo pre

But , in a couple of months I'm switching to Harrison pre's on my
950 M console .
Old 27th July 2013
  #14
Lives for gear
 
nickelironsteel's Avatar
 

E22s are pricey compared to vintage 241s. Ill get a pair of tlms then and use the d12 on kick in
I wanna keep things vintage but its hard to find km84 in good condition these days. U47fet for kick out.

But mono room what are the vintage classics for this one? (Excluding u47, m49)?
Old 27th July 2013
  #15
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel View Post
E22s are pricey compared to vintage 241s. Ill get a pair of tlms then and use the d12 on kick in
I wanna keep things vintage but its hard to find km84 in good condition these days. U47fet for kick out.

But mono room what are the vintage classics for this one? (Excluding u47, m49)?
Any long ribbon works great on room mic for me. My fav is the Joly205, but the AEA84 would be killer too. And I'm sure others. RCA's work great if you want "that" sound (1940's).
Old 27th July 2013
  #16
Lives for gear
 

if id have to start from scratch id get a pair of 4038s for OHs. a km84 for snare and a d12 for kick. if you are rich, replace the coles with a pair of u67s. done.
Old 27th July 2013
  #17
Lives for gear
 

ps: why on earth would you want to mic a ride cymbal? get four mics and learn how to get a fat sound from them. you are thinking way too many mics... get your OHs right and you wont need much else.
Old 27th July 2013
  #18
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
get your OHs right and you wont need much else.


For me, that's a pair of UM70's - or M71's into vp28's or AML-73's. For open and jazzier stuff, D&R pre's. Those along with kick are normally 65-70% of my drum sound.
Old 27th July 2013
  #19
Lives for gear
 

I think guys are generalizing a bit (IMO). It depends on the style of music and production aesthetic. In the stuff I record, OH are 0% of the kit sound, and basically used purely for cymbals. So everything else gets spot miked. Though I've never spot miked a Ride, I will in the future. Being able to bring up the ride more easily for certain sections of a song would be way easier than the OH volume automation I have had to do in the past.

Just my humble opinion. Not everybody EQs shells out of their OH mics.
Old 27th July 2013
  #20
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodeath View Post
I think guys are generalizing a bit (IMO). It depends on the style of music and production aesthetic.
This is absolutely true. Of course, we have no idea what the OP records..... But it didn't stop a couple dozen suggestions anyways...
Old 27th July 2013
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodeath View Post
I think guys are generalizing a bit (IMO). It depends on the style of music and production aesthetic. In the stuff I record, OH are 0% of the kit sound, and basically used purely for cymbals. So everything else gets spot miked. Though I've never spot miked a Ride, I will in the future. Being able to bring up the ride more easily for certain sections of a song would be way easier than the OH volume automation I have had to do in the past.

Just my humble opinion. Not everybody EQs shells out of their OH mics.
you might live in a musical niche (dont know what you do - hip hop i guess?). but i think its safe to say that a pair of quality well positioned OHs is the way to capture a natural drum sound. you can not get a realistic sounding kit from close miced drums. if you dont want natural sounding drums - sure go for 100% close mics. but it wont sound like a drumkit in the traditional sense.
Old 28th July 2013
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Gretschman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
you might live in a musical niche (dont know what you do - hip hop i guess?). but i think its safe to say that a pair of quality well positioned OHs is the way to capture a natural drum sound. you can not get a realistic sounding kit from close miced drums. if you dont want natural sounding drums - sure go for 100% close mics. but it wont sound like a drumkit in the traditional sense.
So , how about telling me how you mic drums , placement and mic's used in what pattern .
I'm always curious about the way others do their thing .
Old 28th July 2013
  #23
Lives for gear
 
K. Osborne's Avatar
I definitely agree that it does depend on the style of music. I mic up a jazz kit totally differently than I do a rock kit. The balance is changed, the perspective of the kit in the mix is changed, and the way it is presented in the mix is different. To me it's all about the entire song, not just about the drum sound. The drum sound can totally dictate the sound of a song, it can almost define the genre.

That being said, if I were in a pinch, I almost always prefer a Telefunken M80 on snare, and condensers on toms. Never liked 421s on toms, even on rock stuff. If I've got a flailing drummer who I'm worried may hit them...that's when I use 421s. I much prefer C12As or even 414s on toms.

If it's modern rock, there's generally a lot more close mic, so I try to make those as good as I possibly can. 451 on snare bottom, M80 snare top, C12As or 414s on toms, RE20 or D112 on kick, Charter Oak E700 on outside kick (sounds massive!)

Overheads are still important in this scenario and range from KSM313s to 184s to 251s. In general, I dig 184s a lot for rock overheads - really clear and defined.

If you're going for more lofi, or even just more "band in a room" sound, to me it's ALL about the vibe of the overheads at that point. Positioned however necessary to get the most out of the kit, and using as few mics as possible.

I was talking to Brian Deck over at Engine Studios (sadly has closed down) and he made a great point in our conversation that really stuck out to me - something along the lines of "if you mic a kit in the conventional way, it will sound conventional. And that's a totally valid, but it can also be totally boring." And it's true. Doing the multi-mic setup is great! Offers a lot of flexibility, but it can also sound really sterile. Other times, it's exactly what the sound needs.

I sort of liken this to playing darts. When you're playing darts, you throw one at a time to try to get as many points as possible. Nobody in their right mind would try to throw two darts at once, or three, to try and "increase their odds of hitting a bullseye if all three are aimed at the center." I'm pretty sure that's against the rules. Sort of a weird analogy but the point is - a lot of guys will set up 10-12 mics, and not actually spend the time to make any single one of them sound good. You wind up with a scenario where you HAVE to use all 12 to make them sound cohesive, and then there are weird phase problems.

It's much more effective, and a big part of the reason why a lot of guys focus so much on the overheads, to set up the overheads first and get the desired sound from that, and then fill in where the sound is lacking. It's not necessarily dependent on genre at that point, it's just good engineering. It's much better to have 5 really good sounding, useful microphones to work with than 12 that all sound kind of lame, right?

Kind of like when guys put up 5 mics on a guitar cab...all it leads to is small, weird, non-realistic sound. Put up one, maybe a room mic, and boom, it sounds like you're there.


Just something to think about.
Old 28th July 2013
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
you might live in a musical niche (dont know what you do - hip hop i guess?). but i think its safe to say that a pair of quality well positioned OHs is the way to capture a natural drum sound. you can not get a realistic sounding kit from close miced drums. if you dont want natural sounding drums - sure go for 100% close mics. but it wont sound like a drumkit in the traditional sense.
Yes a bit of a niche. I do mostly metal. Although I have also produced an indie/surf-y record where I treated the OH the same way (EQing out as much shell as possible) that I think turned out pretty well.
Old 29th July 2013
  #25
Lives for gear
 
jmikeperkins's Avatar
You want to use FOUR KM184's for overheads? You then want to put a separate mic on HH and the ride cymbal? I think you have too many mics on the drum kit and will run into phase issues, but I have heard people get great drum sounds with as few as 2 mics and as many as 12 so I guess it just depends. All KM 184's in decent shape will match up perfectly and there is no such thing in the real world as a "matched pair" of KM 184's. I have a pair of KM 184's and they work great as drum overheads on live remote recordings but I prefer the less hyped pair of KM74 mics I have for studio work. The Sennheiser 421 is a great drum mic, but the EV RE-20 is even better and I would consider adding a couple of those to your mic locker. You can use them amost anywhere on a drum kit with great results.
Old 29th July 2013
  #26
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmikeperkins View Post
You want to use FOUR KM184's for overheads?.
surround sound!
Old 30th July 2013
  #27
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
surround sound!
I always use 5 because I like my Center to be locked down and solid.
Old 30th July 2013
  #28
Lives for gear
 
nickelironsteel's Avatar
 

Hehe i never said i want 4 km184. Someone recommended to have at least 4 km84 to which i replied theyre hard to get. The rca for room is a bit too american vintage to me. I just swapped the u67 for mono room (and main vocal idea) and got a u47 with brass long body m7 and vf14 i think i got mono room covered. Ordered a u47fet for kick out and my wsw d12 will do kick in duties. Toms will be md421 and oh km184(yes matched pair at least sennheiser sells them this way). A u87 for drummers head
Position and 2 tlm102 are on their way for hh and ride duties. Genres? Metal, rock, folk, blues, alternative whatever gets thrown at me. I hope the u in u47/87 still stands for universal
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump