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Man, if I decide not to upgrade to 96k.....
Old 22nd September 2002
  #31
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Jay,

You and AJ are taking my posts out of context. I did not say that one can only mix on a J/K...nor that you have personally never worked in a high-end room for an extensive length of time. I am saying that what you heard was certainly different from what I hear daily. Also, I would have to hear some examples before believing that AJ is regularly "blowing away" the mixes of top reference CDs on a daily basis on his DP rig at home. That is really quite a big claim.

Monitors...it's difficult to exaggerate the importance of monitors and room acoustics. If your living depends on being 100% sure that your mixes translate well, those things are critical. How much money you should throw at them is a question of proportion relative to the project budgets you or your clients are responsible for.

When a label or artist is spending $2500-$5000 a day (studio, rentals, engineer, etc) in the mixing phase, I don't think great monitors are too much for them to expect.

When name mix guys come to check out my room, they already know what gear there is. The ONE thing they are most interested in -- and that they spend time listening to -- is the monitors and translation potential of the room.

AJ, I enjoyed the phrase 'sonic imprint' you used, because some gear have a much better one than others....just think for a minute about all the jitter, bussing/summing math and all those crud-ins which make up the not-so-positive sonic imprint of mixing in a computer. Better yet, listen to it compared to an absence of it. I wonder how you would characterize the "sonic imprint" of a J, Legacy, 88R, or 80xx in comparison...after spending a few weeks working on them.

It's not holier-than-thou, it's reality...you'd get the same reaction asking a pro race car driver (or his sponsors) whether he'd prefer roller skates over an F1 car for his next race.
Old 22nd September 2002
  #32
The reality is Jon, you have only just gotten going on your new Formula One brand 'roller skates'. You have only been using an SSL since yours was installed this Spring!

Vrooooooom!

heh
Old 22nd September 2002
  #33
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs

... to spend $50K on monitors and $300K or whatever on a console just to remove potential excuses is just pissing money away.
I think removing excuses is one of the most important reasons to spend that kind of money!

My experience has been that people rarely come up with better than "ok" performances when they aren't under at least some pressure. There's no pressure quite like working in the same room with the same gear that was used to make most of the hits that are your personal benchmarks. At that point you and the artist have no excuses. The more successful the artist, the more important this kind of thing often becomes.
Old 22nd September 2002
  #34
I disagree from an engineer / producer point of view.

The hands on clocks just seem to whiz round faster at high price facilities, I grew to resent the 'one shot' aspect of mixing at them. I dig the time to tweak.

I am not alone there, one friend Robert King (HI Rob!) has what he humorously describes as the perfect 1995 studio. Yet he has produced an ASTOUNDING sounding album for his own band Alternative 3. Roberts thing (and I hope I am not embarrassing him here) is to spend A LOT of time on recording AND mixing. That requires him to have his OWN studio, not trips to 'mother ship' SSL / Neve studios..

Tweak time & slower clocks!

It's a vibe!

Old 22nd September 2002
  #35
I disagree from an engineer / producer point of view.

The hands on clocks just seem to whiz round faster at high price facilities, I grew to resent the 'one shot' aspect of mixing at them. I dig the time to tweak.

I am not alone there, one friend Robert King (HI Rob!) has what he humorously describes as the perfect 1995 studio (no modern frills or gadgets). Yet he has produced an ASTOUNDING sounding album for his own band Alternative 3. Roberts thing (and I hope I am not embarrassing him here) is to spend A LOT of time on recording AND mixing. That requires him to have his OWN studio, not trips to 'mother ship' SSL / Neve studios..

Tweak time & slower clocks!

It's a vibe!

Old 23rd September 2002
  #36
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

read carefully, i said beat out MY reference CD's in the genre im mixing. hell just yesterday i had to compete with the Ted Hawkins, Keb Mo, and Ryan Adams CD's.... the client was VERY pleased. am i beating out Dave Friddman? **** no.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #37
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

...

and 90% of all sonics are in the players themselves... possibly more. sometime try setting up a drum kit and leave it set up exactly as is and run 3 different drummer through it. the sonics WILL drastically change dependant on the drummer.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #38
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

...

but to compare an SSL to DP,or any DAW, and Formula 1 to roller skates is a HUGE stretch. its more like a Infinity QX4 to a Nissan Pathfinder. dont kid yourself or anyone else who reads this.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #39
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by jon

Monitors...it's difficult to exaggerate the importance of monitors and room acoustics. If your living depends on being 100% sure that your mixes translate well, those things are critical. How much money you should throw at them is a question of proportion relative to the project budgets you or your clients are responsible for.

When a label or artist is spending $2500-$5000 a day (studio, rentals, engineer, etc) in the mixing phase, I don't think great monitors are too much for them to expect.

When name mix guys come to check out my room, they already know what gear there is. The ONE thing they are most interested in -- and that they spend time listening to -- is the monitors and translation potential of the room.
I never said monitors and room acoustics aren't important. But, I think too many good sounding records have been done in bad to just OK rooms to say that things need to be perfect to have "platinum" potential. The platinum potential starts with the songwriter in whatever their writing room is.

Your right though, nobody should have to put up with bad rooms or monitors while spending that kind of money. But, $50K for one set of monitors is still a lot of dough. How many people mixed how many platinum records with NS-10s? And those are far from great IMNSHO.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #40
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
The reality is Jon, you have only just gotten going on your new Formula One brand 'roller skates'. You have only been using an SSL since yours was installed this Spring!

heh
Ah, time to justify myself.

My first session on an SSL J series was in June 2001.

Since last April, I've tracked 2 albums and mixed 4 albums and 12 singles, and done two orchestra dates on the J here...which represents more flying time on the J than many free-lancers. Enough to start commenting on the machine, I guess.

Jon
Old 23rd September 2002
  #41
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
How many people mixed how many platinum records with NS-10s? And those are far from great IMNSHO.
I love NS10s for what they do. Just bought another new pair to stock up. But they have a different function than the bigs. It's not one or the other. It's both.

The bigs, together along with the room, should ideally give a complete picture, masking little and translating well. Achieving that really well is difficult and rare. They help me judge the things that are difficult with the smaller speakers, like the bottom end and subwoofer frequencies, or the way it will sound in a club or a car.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #42
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
...

and 90% of all sonics are in the players themselves... possibly more. sometime try setting up a drum kit and leave it set up exactly as is and run 3 different drummer through it. the sonics WILL drastically change dependant on the drummer.
Tracking is really important, but when you're in the mixing game, you deal with what is given you. At that stage, the console becomes the main tool you rely on and its summing, filters/EQs, dynamics, and routings affects the sonics in a pretty big way.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #43
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
read carefully, i said beat out MY reference CD's in the genre im mixing. hell just yesterday i had to compete with the Ted Hawkins, Keb Mo, and Ryan Adams CD's.... the client was VERY pleased. am i beating out Dave Friddman? **** no.
I thought your references were Friddman, Goldrich, Wallace, JJP, etc, since they are what you often mention.

It's relative. Would your client have been as pleased with the mix if it had cost five grand -- or would expectations have been higher?

Keb'Mo...didn't Ed Cherney do one of his albums?
Old 23rd September 2002
  #44
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
...

but to compare an SSL to DP,or any DAW, and Formula 1 to roller skates is a HUGE stretch. its more like a Infinity QX4 to a Nissan Pathfinder. dont kid yourself or anyone else who reads this.
AJ, could you please clarify so that I can understand better (and stop kidding myself).

First of, which SSL console are you actually talking about?

There is the J/K, the E/G/G+ 4000 or 6000 or 8000, the Axiom MT/MT+, the Scenaria, the Aysis...and they are all very different beasts. I was talking specifically about the J.

Second, which DAW are you actually talking about?

Third, what were your experiences working with the two machines and comparing them? What room did you work in, and how did you compare the SSL and the DAW? How many albums did you engineer with each machine?

Thanks for shedding some light.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #45
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
The hands on clocks just seem to whiz round faster at high price facilities, I grew to resent the 'one shot' aspect of mixing at them. I dig the time to tweak.
That's cool.

Personally, I dig walking in, working very fast in a kick-ass room, getting the mix done by the deadline, and walking out satisfied. I resent drawn-out marathon slogs, and sessions when a client is trying to get a mix done in PT to sound like the tape or big room mix in his ref CDs.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #46
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson


I think removing excuses is one of the most important reasons to spend that kind of money!

My experience has been that people rarely come up with better than "ok" performances when they aren't under at least some pressure. There's no pressure quite like working in the same room with the same gear that was used to make most of the hits that are your personal benchmarks. At that point you and the artist have no excuses. The more successful the artist, the more important this kind of thing often becomes.
Thanks, Bob, couldn't agree more.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #47
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

not the one he brought in as a reference... i will have to look to see who did that keb'mo.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #48
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

friddman... the GUY is a genius. wallace, jjp... etc, dont put out nearly the quality considering what YOU are trying to say. especially JJP with his hard on room. by accounts of what you are saying his recordings should be incredible... but they arent.
Old 23rd September 2002
  #49
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

godrich... well, mutations was very cool. but thats beck. kid a on the other hand is a load of "crticially acclaimed" bull****.

so you are saying you rely on the gear... not on your skills.
Old 24th September 2002
  #50
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by jon

The bigs, together along with the room, should ideally give a complete picture, masking little and translating well. Achieving that really well is difficult and rare. They help me judge the things that are difficult with the smaller speakers, like the bottom end and subwoofer frequencies, or the way it will sound in a club or a car.
That's great. I'm happy for you. Personally I've always found main's (aka big's) to be pretty much useless for mixing. Great for impressing a client but they don't do a damn thing for me. I'd rather have a decent set of midfields maybe with a sub then $50K main's.
Old 24th September 2002
  #51
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
godrich... well, mutations was very cool. but thats beck. kid a on the other hand is a load of "crticially acclaimed" bull****.
Then check out "Sea Change" - Brand new Beck with Godrich again - I think its brilliant. ...And Kid A wasn't merely critically acclaimed. In my town (far far from London) its always playing in the jukeboxes in the bars (really) and multitudes of high school and college age kids use it as their reference point for what good experimental pop/rock is. You don't need to like it - but if its made that much impact - I wouldn't call it bull****. Didn't Godrich do OK Computer too - that definitely wasn't bull****.

But was either recorded at 96k? <- a feeble attempt to make my reply on topic.
Old 24th September 2002
  #52
Lives for gear
 
Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

Godrich is definately still a 2" sorta guy..... however i ahve not heard much about him and their is very little info on him etc on the WWW... so witht he advent of PTHD who knows.... its has made mnay tapesluts change their stripes... inlcuding me....lol

All Radiohead albums are 2" affairs. however hey did make a fair bit of use of Logic in the making of their last few albums from what io have heard and read in interviews...

PEACE
Wiggy
Old 24th September 2002
  #53
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 

as allways, it alll comes down to what YOU like, and where YOU want to work, and what YOUR clients expect..

If you arequire an SSL and Studer to get what you want, good for you, if a DP rig gets you there, fine.. We have all seen that the top 15 - 20% shelf in quality gets exponentially expensive.. ( ie: from a PT rig to an SSL room) do I own a set of 50K mains and have a killer room design, no. if I could afford it, would I ? absoutely. in a second. no debate. even if I did only use them for the few passes a mix I generally do when mixin in those rooms. it is the only way to really know the information those type of monitors give you.. As far as "tweak" time, I personally have to tweak way more in a DAW than I do on a large-frame analog console,probablly the way i work, but it is a fact for me. even on my SONY DMX I do mixes in about 70% of the time it took in PT. ( and they sound night and day better.)

As far a "beating" refs... way too subjective to even comment on... but hey if the clients dig it, give it to em in spades...

I can't wait till some "big" engineer states that his "mixes done with dog **** under the console( or keyboard) " sound way better then his "x" mixes so we can all see jst how smelly our control rooms become.....

Steve
Old 24th September 2002
  #54
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

paul...thats a shame... they should check out mercury rev, flaming lips, sparklehorse, yo la tengo... all these guys have been doing what radiohead is copying, and did it a LOT better.
Old 24th September 2002
  #55
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

my point is... if you cant make a killer sounding album without an ssl, then question your talents, not the gear. if you must rely on an SSL to make a good sounding record, question your talents.
Old 24th September 2002
  #56
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
my point is... if you cant make a killer sounding album without an ssl, then question your talents, not the gear. if you must rely on an SSL to make a good sounding record, question your talents.
Dear AJ,

I hope we are still allowed to 'rely' on things like nice acoustic spaces, nice mics, good monitors, outboard, etc. Or would that also fall into the category of things that only non-talented engineers use?
Old 24th September 2002
  #57
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Now break it up you two! Move along folks, nothing to see here!!

I'm losing my sense of vision reading your tit 4 tat bitchin'. Or am I going colorblind...? Yeah, that's it! Seems you're both making things a little too black and white. What works for one doesn't work for all. Use what works for you, if you're happy with it, stick with it... but ****in' shaddup already. heh
Old 24th September 2002
  #58
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Jax, there's nothing quite like a debate to jack up readership and post counts. AJ is a great partner for this.
Old 25th September 2002
  #59
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
they should check out mercury rev, flaming lips, sparklehorse, yo la tengo...
Well I do. But I must spend my time making records not evangelizing what's cool to the local populace. You can lead a Horse to water.....

However, I must say that sometimes, sometimes - a copycat improves on the original - my best example would be J.S. Bach - during his time - he worked in styles that were waaay out of date - stuff that had been done to death. All the young cool kids were moving forward into newer realms. But damned if he didn't do it so much better that we don't listen to the originators of the style - we listen to him. And no - I'm not talking about Lenny Kravitz.dfegad
Old 25th September 2002
  #60
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

paul, even they werent the originators of it all. then you would have to go back to 13th floor elevators.

jaxx... jon and i are just discussing in good fun. its nothing serious.

yes jon, those fall into that category as well

but sonics for me goes in order:
players
song
room
engineer
equipment

although song and players are kinda interchangable for the top spot.

it WAS ed cherney that said, "i became a great engineer when i started working with great players"
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